abcdef Posted September 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Author Share Posted September 25, 2020 48 minutes ago, iamlamad said: Are you denying the book of Revelation? I'm not, I'm just denying your misinformation on it. 48 minutes ago, iamlamad said: Read 1 thes 4 & 5: Paul's rapture: it comes JUST before wrath. The wrath that Paul talks about in that text is eternal wrath. It is not some made up 7 year time period on planet earth, that some without proof try to tie together with it. 48 minutes ago, iamlamad said: Where does WRATH start in Revelation? 6th seal The wrath of God against unbelieving Israel begins at the 4 horsemen. That is sooooo obvious. 48 minutes ago, iamlamad said: Then as final proof, John saw the raptured church in heaven as the great crowd too large to number just after the 6th seal. Prove that it is the raptured kingdom/church. You cannot, because they are not the kingdom/church. They are OT saints from the resurrection with Jesus. 48 minutes ago, iamlamad said: SO it all does not HAVE to be written in Rev. 6 to be truth. We form docrine from ALL end times scriptures. If you cannot show a resurrection in the passage of the 6th seal, then it is an assumption, that is without proof. You cannot show a resurrection at the 6th seal because there isn't one. 48 minutes ago, iamlamad said: You can be wrong about the timing of the 6th seal. We are not there yet. The church is still at the martyrs: there are still people being murdered because they love Jesus. Yes they are. But you like many others completely disregard the 1st resurrection when the OT saints were resurrected with Jesus. Eph 4:8. They are the ones seen with John and Jesus in 96 AD when the Revelation was given. The OT saints are the 144000 and the MTNMCC. The church/kingdom is not seen in heaven until after second resurrection of Rev 20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted September 25, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.07 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2020 12 hours ago, abcdef said: The wrath that Paul talks about in that text is eternal wrath. It is not some made up 7 year time period on planet earth, that some without proof try to tie together with it. The wrath of God against unbelieving Israel begins at the 4 horsemen. That is sooooo obvious. Prove that it is the raptured kingdom/church. You cannot, because they are not the kingdom/church. They are OT saints from the resurrection with Jesus. If you cannot show a resurrection in the passage of the 6th seal, then it is an assumption, that is without proof. You cannot show a resurrection at the 6th seal because there isn't one. Yes they are. But you like many others completely disregard the 1st resurrection when the OT saints were resurrected with Jesus. Eph 4:8. They are the ones seen with John and Jesus in 96 AD when the Revelation was given. The OT saints are the 144000 and the MTNMCC. The church/kingdom is not seen in heaven until after second resurrection of Rev 20. The wrath that Paul talks about in that text is eternal wrath. that is just your "misinformation on it." There is no verse found in the KJV with those two words. It is no wonder we disagree. It is not some made up 7 year time period on planet earth, that some without proof try to tie together with it. If you would bother to read and study the text, the wrath Paul speaks of is the DAY of His wrath: i.e. the Day of the Lord. As for 7 years, I guess you are misinformed on that too: It it is the last 7 years or the last "week" of years of the 70 weeks of years Daniel wrote of. Prove that it is the raptured kingdom/church. Prove they are not. They show up in heaven right after Paul's rapture. Perhaps 50 generations of believers at one place at one time: a HUGE crowd, in the billions. Plus all the children the world around at the time of the rapture. Of the groups of people mentioned in Revelation, the raptured church will be by far the biggest. The wrath of God against unbelieving Israel begins at the 4 horsemen. Again you are lost in misinformation. Anyone can make scripture say anything if they are willing to take verses out of context. Here is an example: Matthew 27:5 And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself. Luke 10:37 ... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise. 1 Thes 5 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. These three SEEM to tell a scriptural story. It is BOGUS, just as your theory of the 4 horsemen. First off, Israel does not cover 1/4 of the earth. Second, you pulled them out of their early church context. Don't take my word for it, go back and read: Rev. 5: 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. WHEN did He get the book and begin opening the seals? AS soon as He sent the Holy Spirit down. The truth then is that the first seal represents the gospel sent out. Seals 2-4 represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the Gospel. God allowed they to operate in only 1/4 of the world. If we look a globe and picture 1/4th, it would take in Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. (the 1/4 would be centered on Israel where the gospel started.) Where have two world wars started? Europe. Where has there been famine after famine? Africa. Where did the black plague hit - TWICE - and take out around a 3rd of the population? Europe. Seal five is the martyrs of the church age. They ask when their murders will be judged. They are told judgment will not start (the 6th seal) until the full number of martyrs is killed. Once the last martyr is killed, the church will be raptured and WRATH will begin. So your theory is again only misinformation. Is misinformation really that obvious? Perhaps with thick preconceived glasses on. If you cannot show a resurrection in the passage of the 6th seal, then it is an assumption, that is without proof. I cannot find "trinity" anywhere in scripture, but it is truth. I cannot find ALL of Peter's denials in any one place, but we don't look in one place; we take all the verses on one subject. It is no wonder we disagree: you look in the wrong places for truth. When you get to heaven, find Paul and ASK HIM why He put wrath and the DAy of the Lord in His rapture passage. The truth is, the rapture will trigger the DAY, so of course He included the Day of the Lord. It comes HARD after the rapture. So all we need to to find timing is find where the Day of the Lord starts - and that is at the 6th seal. I didn't write it, John did, and Paul did. AGain, as further proof, shortly after that John saw the raptured church in heaven. It all fits like a hand in a glove. you like many others completely disregard the 1st resurrection when the OT saints were resurrected with Jesus. Eph 4:8. If you cannot show a resurrection in Eph 4:8, then it is an assumption, that is without proof. Most of Christiandom believes that is when Jesus took Abraham's bosom to heaven, which only contained the SPIRITS of the OT saints. And the verse in Matthew 27 about the saints resurrected does not even hint that it was all of them. The truth is, the resurrection of the Old Testament saints will come on the last day of the 70th week. (look at Dan. 12) Look for the world's WORST earthquake. When God pulls together the "dust" of those who died before the flood or at the flood, it is going to cause the world's worst earthquake! The OT saints are the 144000 and the MTNMCC. It is true, the 144,000 are the FIRSTfruits of the OT Saints, proving your other statement false. You and I will continue to disagree, for you read many verses differently that I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted September 26, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Author Share Posted September 26, 2020 12 hours ago, iamlamad said: The wrath that Paul talks about in that text is eternal wrath. that is just your "misinformation on it." There is no verse found in the KJV with those two words. It is no wonder we disagree. It is not some made up 7 year time period on planet earth, that some without proof try to tie together with it. If you would bother to read and study the text, the wrath Paul speaks of is the DAY of His wrath: i.e. the Day of the Lord. As for 7 years, I guess you are misinformed on that too: It it is the last 7 years or the last "week" of years of the 70 weeks of years Daniel wrote of. Prove that it is the raptured kingdom/church. Prove they are not. They show up in heaven right after Paul's rapture. Perhaps 50 generations of believers at one place at one time: a HUGE crowd, in the billions. Plus all the children the world around at the time of the rapture. Of the groups of people mentioned in Revelation, the raptured church will be by far the biggest. The wrath of God against unbelieving Israel begins at the 4 horsemen. Again you are lost in misinformation. Anyone can make scripture say anything if they are willing to take verses out of context. Here is an example: Matthew 27:5 And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself. Luke 10:37 ... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise. 1 Thes 5 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. These three SEEM to tell a scriptural story. It is BOGUS, just as your theory of the 4 horsemen. First off, Israel does not cover 1/4 of the earth. Second, you pulled them out of their early church context. Don't take my word for it, go back and read: Rev. 5: 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. WHEN did He get the book and begin opening the seals? AS soon as He sent the Holy Spirit down. The truth then is that the first seal represents the gospel sent out. Seals 2-4 represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the Gospel. God allowed they to operate in only 1/4 of the world. If we look a globe and picture 1/4th, it would take in Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. (the 1/4 would be centered on Israel where the gospel started.) Where have two world wars started? Europe. Where has there been famine after famine? Africa. Where did the black plague hit - TWICE - and take out around a 3rd of the population? Europe. Seal five is the martyrs of the church age. They ask when their murders will be judged. They are told judgment will not start (the 6th seal) until the full number of martyrs is killed. Once the last martyr is killed, the church will be raptured and WRATH will begin. So your theory is again only misinformation. Is misinformation really that obvious? Perhaps with thick preconceived glasses on. If you cannot show a resurrection in the passage of the 6th seal, then it is an assumption, that is without proof. I cannot find "trinity" anywhere in scripture, but it is truth. I cannot find ALL of Peter's denials in any one place, but we don't look in one place; we take all the verses on one subject. It is no wonder we disagree: you look in the wrong places for truth. When you get to heaven, find Paul and ASK HIM why He put wrath and the DAy of the Lord in His rapture passage. The truth is, the rapture will trigger the DAY, so of course He included the Day of the Lord. It comes HARD after the rapture. So all we need to to find timing is find where the Day of the Lord starts - and that is at the 6th seal. I didn't write it, John did, and Paul did. AGain, as further proof, shortly after that John saw the raptured church in heaven. It all fits like a hand in a glove. you like many others completely disregard the 1st resurrection when the OT saints were resurrected with Jesus. Eph 4:8. If you cannot show a resurrection in Eph 4:8, then it is an assumption, that is without proof. Most of Christiandom believes that is when Jesus took Abraham's bosom to heaven, which only contained the SPIRITS of the OT saints. And the verse in Matthew 27 about the saints resurrected does not even hint that it was all of them. The truth is, the resurrection of the Old Testament saints will come on the last day of the 70th week. (look at Dan. 12) Look for the world's WORST earthquake. When God pulls together the "dust" of those who died before the flood or at the flood, it is going to cause the world's worst earthquake! The OT saints are the 144000 and the MTNMCC. It is true, the 144,000 are the FIRSTfruits of the OT Saints, proving your other statement false. You and I will continue to disagree, for you read many verses differently that I do. I'm wondering, Don't you see any scriptures that talk about the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem? When the letters of Paul and the others were written the event was only 20- 10 years away, approx. When the Rev was written it had just happened. Don't you think that the apostles said some things about it? Why apply everything to events 1900 years in the future and not apply anything to their present time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted September 26, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.07 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 26, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, abcdef said: I'm wondering, Don't you see any scriptures that talk about the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem? When the letters of Paul and the others were written the event was only 20- 10 years away, approx. When the Rev was written it had just happened. Don't you think that the apostles said some things about it? Why apply everything to events 1900 years in the future and not apply anything to their present time? No, 70 AD was history when John wrote, and it seems that Jesus found no reason to mention it. It was future to Paul's letters - and again, it seems Jesus chose to give no warning other than what was in the gospels. No, I don't think God chose to include it in the bible. What happened there did not pertain to Israel's end times, nor to the church. Jesus gave the Jews ample warning in the gospels. Edited September 26, 2020 by iamlamad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted September 26, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Author Share Posted September 26, 2020 3 hours ago, iamlamad said: No, 70 AD was history when John wrote, Yes, I said that 3 hours ago, iamlamad said: and it seems that Jesus found no reason to mention it. Wow, an amazing statement. 3 hours ago, iamlamad said: It was future to Paul's letters Yes. Maybe Paul just forgot to mention it? That in 10-20 years the temple and Jerusalem would be destroyed? Millions would die and Israel would flee? Oh, but pretrib says that Paul and the apostles didn't say a word to the churches in their letters. Not one single word. (It's all 1900 years in the future.) Please, go back and read it again. The day of the Lord is against 70 AD Jerusalem. 3 hours ago, iamlamad said: - and again, it seems Jesus chose to give no warning other than what was in the gospels. Where in the gospels? 3 hours ago, iamlamad said: No, I don't think God chose to include it in the bible. What happened there did not pertain to Israel's end times, nor to the church. Wow, another amazing statement. How can you even say such a thing? 3 hours ago, iamlamad said: Jesus gave the Jews ample warning in the gospels. Where? ================================================================================================================================= Well, I shouldn't be surprised, but I am still stunned by pretrib's disregard for the 70 AD destruction. Roman armies came. Killed millions of Jews. Destroyed the temple. Destroyed Jerusalem. Carried away thousands for slaves. Chased Israel into the gentile nations for 1900 years. Oh, but nobody said anything or much about it. Wow, amazing. -------------------- Everything is future! That is what pretrib says. Nothing about the 70 AD destruction! They must rebuild the temple again. They must start sacrifices again. The Antichrist must bring armies again. Surround Jerusalem again. Kill millions again. Take away slaves again. Defile a temple again. Drive Israel into the gentile nations again. Oh, none of this happened in the 70 AD time period. No, no. Wow, amazing. ---------- Sorry to tell you this, But it all, already happened and has been fulfilled. ------- Whoever came up with the pretrib time line was really out to deceive people, (RCC). With great success. Roman Catholic Church. Oh. the Bishop of Rome can't be the Antichrist............. because the Bible prophecies are all a future 7 years......... so he can't be the Antichrist who kills Israel for centuries and centuries and centuries and centuries and centuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted September 26, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.07 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 26, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, abcdef said: Yes, I said that Wow, an amazing statement. Yes. Maybe Paul just forgot to mention it? That in 10-20 years the temple and Jerusalem would be destroyed? Millions would die and Israel would flee? Oh, but pretrib says that Paul and the apostles didn't say a word to the churches in their letters. Not one single word. (It's all 1900 years in the future.) Please, go back and read it again. The day of the Lord is against 70 AD Jerusalem. Where in the gospels? Wow, another amazing statement. How can you even say such a thing? Where? ================================================================================================================================= Well, I shouldn't be surprised, but I am still stunned by pretrib's disregard for the 70 AD destruction. Roman armies came. Killed millions of Jews. Destroyed the temple. Destroyed Jerusalem. Carried away thousands for slaves. Chased Israel into the gentile nations for 1900 years. Oh, but nobody said anything or much about it. Wow, amazing. -------------------- Everything is future! That is what pretrib says. Nothing about the 70 AD destruction! They must rebuild the temple again. They must start sacrifices again. The Antichrist must bring armies again. Surround Jerusalem again. Kill millions again. Take away slaves again. Defile a temple again. Drive Israel into the gentile nations again. Oh, none of this happened in the 70 AD time period. No, no. Wow, amazing. ---------- Sorry to tell you this, But it all, already happened and has been fulfilled. ------- Whoever came up with the pretrib time line was really out to deceive people, (RCC). With great success. Roman Catholic Church. Oh. the Bishop of Rome can't be the Antichrist............. because the Bible prophecies are all a future 7 years......... so he can't be the Antichrist who kills Israel for centuries and centuries and centuries and centuries and centuries. Probably often when "the day of the Lord" or "that day" was mentioned it was for some calamity that was about to come THEN, but will have a second fulfilling in our future. Same with the olivet discourse: Jerusalem was surrounded in 70 AD and without a doubt will be again. Why don't you just blame Paul? He is the one that first wrote of the rapture. Do you not think there is a gathering in our future, of if you do, where do YOU place it? Edited September 26, 2020 by iamlamad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted September 26, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Author Share Posted September 26, 2020 5 hours ago, iamlamad said: Probably often when "the day of the Lord" or "that day" was mentioned it was for some calamity that was about to come THEN, but will have a second fulfilling in our future. I agree, kind of. There is a day of the Lord against 70 AD Jerusalem, (6th seal), And there is a day of the Lord to come against the world/planet (7th trumpet). Knowing the difference clarifies the prophecies. -------- The difference is that the day of the Lord in 70 AD involves Rome and the scattering of Israel into the gentile nations. The day of the Lord in the future involves the kings of the east and Magog, and sadly, the end of Israel on this planet. There won't be any fleeing or being taken as slaves this next time. 5 hours ago, iamlamad said: Same with the olivet discourse: Jerusalem was surrounded in 70 AD and without a doubt will be again. I Agree. But the outcome for the people of Israel will be different. 5 hours ago, iamlamad said: Why don't you just blame Paul? He is the one that first wrote of the rapture. Do you not think there is a gathering in our future, of if you do, where do YOU place it? 3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls to the kings of the east and Magog, The resur/rapt will happen. ------ The 7th trumpet and 2 witnesses show the end of Israel after they are restored to Jerusalem, It is not some halfway point, It is THE END. The possession of the kingdom happens at that time, it is not a transaction of paperwork, It is the actual resur/rapt of the kingdom into heaven. Look, see, that after the 7th trumpet blows, there is judgment, and the Ark, Jesus, is revealed in heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted September 27, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.07 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 27, 2020 55 minutes ago, abcdef said: I agree, kind of. There is a day of the Lord against 70 AD Jerusalem, (6th seal), And there is a day of the Lord to come against the world/planet (7th trumpet). Knowing the difference clarifies the prophecies. I agree, kind of. There is a day of the Lord against 70 AD Jerusalem, (6th seal), And there is a day of the Lord to come against the world/planet (7th trumpet). Knowing the difference clarifies the prophecies. OK, suppose a new Christian is reading Revelation. What is there in chapters 4, 5, and 6 that would lead him to believe the 6th seal is about 70 AD? I see it this way: 1st seal, the church sent out with the gospel: 32 AD to the end of the church age. 2nd, 3rd, 4th seal: the Devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel: 32 AD to the end of the church age. 5th seal: martyrs of the church age: 32 AD to the end of the church age: told they must wait for the time of judgment until the final martyr has been killed. I take this to mean until the pretrib rapture ends the church 6th seal: start of judgment and the Day of the Lord. 7th seal: start of the 70th week of Daniel. In other words, I find not one hint of anything that would point to 70 AD. Am I missing something? how are you getting 70 AD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted September 27, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.07 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 27, 2020 1 hour ago, abcdef said: -------- The difference is that the day of the Lord in 70 AD involves Rome and the scattering of Israel into the gentile nations. The day of the Lord in the future involves the kings of the east and Magog, and sadly, the end of Israel on this planet. There won't be any fleeing or being taken as slaves this next time. the scattering of Israel OK, but WHERE in Chapters 4 through 6 do you find "scattering?" the end of Israel on this planet. Say WHAT? What scripture do you base this on? I see Israel surviving and entering the Millennial Reign. They are promised the Holy Land FOREVER. I was sure Zech. told of slaves being taken. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. According to verse 4, it is the day Jesus returns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted September 27, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.07 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 27, 2020 (edited) On 9/26/2020 at 6:22 PM, abcdef said: 3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls to the kings of the east and Magog, The resur/rapt will happen. ------ 3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls to the kings of the east and Magog, The resur/rapt will happen. Show us what scripture you are basing this on. Where do you get the 3 1/2 days? I though that time was for the Two Witnesses. The story of the Two Witnesses does not include the kings of the East. Edited September 28, 2020 by iamlamad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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