JERUSALEM IS FALLING

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51 minutes ago, Biblican said:

The book of Revelation was written 25 years after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD.

Yes

51 minutes ago, Biblican said:

John is told that the visions he was being given would apply to the past present and future,

Yes

51 minutes ago, Biblican said:

so to say that Revelation only applies to before 70AD is a Preterist error.

Yes

51 minutes ago, Biblican said:

Preterism was invented by a Jesuit priest to defend the Pope was accusations that he was the antichrist. It is a man inspired doctrine that contradicts the Apostles.

Yes

51 minutes ago, Biblican said:

Events in Revelation, like the drying of the Euphrates river are happening now and did not occur in 70AD.

Yes

51 minutes ago, Biblican said:

 

The events in the warning period of the trumpets deal with the environment.

No, the events described in the seals/trumpets are symbolic of the broken branches and their suffering at the hands of  the Roman beast from 37 AD until  Jesus comes for the kingdom at the 7th/last trumpet. Soon.

The events described in the trumpets 70 AD until Jesus comes are about the people of Israel and not the planet's environment.

 

51 minutes ago, Biblican said:

The plagues affect 1/3rd of the planet in Rev 8

Not the gentile planet, the people of Israel. 1/3 of Israel, "mankind".

51 minutes ago, Biblican said:

and 100 percent in chapter 16.

Rev 15 & 16 is focused on the Roman beast from 70 AD until Jesus comes at the 7th vial. Not the planet, Rome and Israel. 

 

51 minutes ago, Biblican said:

They come to their fullness before Jesus returns.

Yes, the specific identification of events is what is looked for, 

1-7 seals, 37 AD -70 AD

1-4 trumpets, 70 AD - 1967

5th trumpet, 1929, Vatican restored, seat of the beast, Jew killers released (WW 2).

6th trumpet, 9/11/01, as a result of the trumpet, the people of the Euphrates cross to attack restored to Israel Jerusalem.

7th trumpet, soon, Jerusalem falls, Israel killed, 3 1/2 days, Jesus comes for the kingdom.

51 minutes ago, Biblican said:

As a First Century Christian, I would have to reject any doctrine that was added after the first century that contradicts what the apostles taught, which Preterism certainly does.

Yes. 

 

 

[Biblican]

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes

No, the events described in the seals/trumpets are symbolic of the broken branches and their suffering at the hands of  the Roman beast from 37 AD until  Jesus comes for the kingdom at the 7th/last trumpet. Soon.

The events described in the trumpets 70 AD until Jesus comes are about the people of Israel and not the planet's environment.

 

Not the gentile planet, the people of Israel. 1/3 of Israel, "mankind".

Rev 15 & 16 is focused on the Roman beast from 70 AD until Jesus comes at the 7th vial. Not the planet, Rome and Israel. 

 

Yes, the specific identification of events is what is looked for, 

1-7 seals, 37 AD -70 AD

1-4 trumpets, 70 AD - 1967

5th trumpet, 1929, Vatican restored, seat of the beast, Jew killers released (WW 2).

6th trumpet, 9/11/01, as a result of the trumpet, the people of the Euphrates cross to attack restored to Israel Jerusalem.

7th trumpet, soon, Jerusalem falls, Israel killed, 3 1/2 days, Jesus comes for the kingdom.

Yes. 

 

 

Well, we are on the same page on some of this.  We will have to agree to disagree on the meaning of the trumpets. They are definitely related to the environment. We are currently watching for the "burning mountain" (meteor/asteroid) to fall into the sea. Currently there is a house sized one that is headed for the Bermuda triangle that will wipe out Florida, and they are watching another bigger one that could hit us by 2029. There are also dead zones that are expanding in the oceans. The Bible shows us that before Jesus returns the oceans will be "as the blood of a dead man." So  by the time the plagues have reached their fullness the oceans will be without oxygen, which Jesus will restore when He returns. Of course these plagues are also for apostate Israel as well as judgments on the entire world.

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2 hours ago, Biblican said:

Well, we are on the same page on some of this.

Yes

2 hours ago, Biblican said:

  We will have to agree to disagree on the meaning of the trumpets.

Try thinking about it from this angle, maybe you will agree,

The letters of the new testament are the old testament, extended.

That is, the speaker/author  of the OT (Jesus/God through Moses and the prophets), is the same spiritual author as the letter writers of the NT. The God who told Moses and the prophets what to write, is the same God/Jesus who told the apostles what to write.

This would mean that the spiritual message and language would be the same. The language of men would change, but the spiritual language/message would be the same.

What the spiritual message shows is the revealing of Jesus and God's love, and Israel as God's people. It is the subject.

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Here is the point, the imagery and symbolism, the spiritual language, used in the letter of Revelation is the same as the imagery and symbolism of the OT.

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Here is an example,

Isa 34:1-15, The day of the Lord v 8, against Idumea (Edom) v 5

V 4, "And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: ..."

Did this happen to Edom as Isaiah said it would?

Didn't history show that it did? Their armies v 2 were utterly destroyed?

What about v 4, where it says that "the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll", didn't that happen at that time also to Edom?

It was fulfilled, but it was not speaking of the material heavens and stars, it was showing the withdrawing of God's blessings of protection over Edom.

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Now go to Rev 6:14, it uses the same imagery/symbolism.

That is because it has the same author, Jesus, who is speaking the same spiritual language that He used in the past (OT), with the same message, God is love and the revealing of Jesus, and Israel is God's people.

So the meaning of the imagery/symbolism in the Rev. is "welded" to the OT without seam or defect.

To find the true meaning of the symbolism/imagery used in the Rev., you must search the OT for similar examples.

 

2 hours ago, Biblican said:

They are definitely related to the environment. We are currently watching for the "burning mountain" (meteor/asteroid) to fall into the sea. Currently there is a house sized one that is headed for the Bermuda triangle that will wipe out Florida, and they are watching another bigger one that could hit us by 2029. There are also dead zones that are expanding in the oceans. The Bible shows us that before Jesus returns the oceans will be "as the blood of a dead man." So  by the time the plagues have reached their fullness the oceans will be without oxygen, which Jesus will restore when He returns.

Jerusalem is God's mountain Dan 9:16.

The waters are people Rev 17:15.

The waters that turn bitter Rev 8:11, are people and Israel, who became bitter towards God, after 70 AD Jerusalem fell , their love for God died.

("Living waters" John 4:13-14)

2 hours ago, Biblican said:

Of course these plagues are also for apostate Israel as well as judgments on the entire world.

The OT is about Israel, centers on Israel, it's focus is on Israel and Jerusalem.

The letters of the apostles are welded onto the OT by having the same author.

Can we switch the narrative, from being centered on Israel and Jerusalem, and speaking in an established spiritual language, to suddenly speaking about the gentiles and the planet earth's environment? Abandoning the interpretation that the author has already established through centuries?

 

 

[Biblican]

19 hours ago, abcdef said:

Yes

Try thinking about it from this angle, maybe you will agree,

The letters of the new testament are the old testament, extended.

That is, the speaker/author  of the OT (Jesus/God through Moses and the prophets), is the same spiritual author as the letter writers of the NT. The God who told Moses and the prophets what to write, is the same God/Jesus who told the apostles what to write.

This would mean that the spiritual message and language would be the same. The language of men would change, but the spiritual language/message would be the same.

What the spiritual message shows is the revealing of Jesus and God's love, and Israel as God's people. It is the subject.

------

Here is the point, the imagery and symbolism, the spiritual language, used in the letter of Revelation is the same as the imagery and symbolism of the OT.

------

Here is an example,

Isa 34:1-15, The day of the Lord v 8, against Idumea (Edom) v 5

V 4, "And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: ..."

Did this happen to Edom as Isaiah said it would?

Didn't history show that it did? Their armies v 2 were utterly destroyed?

What about v 4, where it says that "the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll", didn't that happen at that time also to Edom?

It was fulfilled, but it was not speaking of the material heavens and stars, it was showing the withdrawing of God's blessings of protection over Edom.

-

Now go to Rev 6:14, it uses the same imagery/symbolism.

That is because it has the same author, Jesus, who is speaking the same spiritual language that He used in the past (OT), with the same message, God is love and the revealing of Jesus, and Israel is God's people.

So the meaning of the imagery/symbolism in the Rev. is "welded" to the OT without seam or defect.

To find the true meaning of the symbolism/imagery used in the Rev., you must search the OT for similar examples.

 

Jerusalem is God's mountain Dan 9:16.

The waters are people Rev 17:15.

The waters that turn bitter Rev 8:11, are people and Israel, who became bitter towards God, after 70 AD Jerusalem fell , their love for God died.

("Living waters" John 4:13-14)

The OT is about Israel, centers on Israel, it's focus is on Israel and Jerusalem.

The letters of the apostles are welded onto the OT by having the same author.

Can we switch the narrative, from being centered on Israel and Jerusalem, and speaking in an established spiritual language, to suddenly speaking about the gentiles and the planet earth's environment? Abandoning the interpretation that the author has already established through centuries?

 

 

Under the New Covenant, Gentiles believers who have received Jesus are also seen as Jews, the Israel of God, as we have been grafted in as the Apostle Paul taught. Therefore the imagery that is used in the Old Testament is applied to the church in Revelation. Many of the prophecies in the Old Testament are duel in nature, that is they can refer to other events in the future. As the prophecies  destruction were fulfilled in the Old Testmanet, those words also apply to the judgments that are made against the nations in Revelation. The term "History repeats itself" is very true and  it can also be said that "Prophecies repeat themselves" in certain instances.

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1 hour ago, Biblican said:

Under the New Covenant, Gentiles believers who have received Jesus are also seen as Jews, the Israel of God, as we have been grafted in as the Apostle Paul taught.

Yes

1 hour ago, Biblican said:

Therefore the imagery that is used in the Old Testament is applied to the church in Revelation.

Try this, instead of using the word "church", use the word kingdom.

I believe the word church, in it's modern perception, tends to mean gentiles and not Jews Israel. Some today want to exclude Israel from the church/kingdom when Israel is the church/kingdom.

So what you might say is,"The imagery in OT  Israel is applied to the kingdom of Israel in Revelation."

The language of the OT Israel, is applied to the NT Israel.

The exclusion of flesh Israel from the prophecies distorts the meanings. 

I believe that this comes from the RCC efforts to alienate Israel and replace Israel with the Roman RCC.

As a result, some separate the (church) kingdom into gentile and Jews, saying that the gentiles are raptured and the rest of Israel remains. But this is not so, because the kingdom is Israel, both Jew and gentile. In the kingdom, both are looked on as the same. 

So if the kingdom is raptured, Jewish members of the kingdom are taken also.

 

1 hour ago, Biblican said:

Many of the prophecies in the Old Testament are duel in nature, tha is they can refer to other events in the future.

Some say this, but it is not always true.

The prophecies concerning Jesus, His life, death and resurrection will not be repeated.

The prophecies concerning certain nations and their destruction will not be repeated.

Each prophecy must be considered individually to see if this is true.

In my opinion, by far, most OT prophecies are fulfilled.

 

1 hour ago, Biblican said:

As the prophecies  destruction were fulfilled in the Old Testmanet, those words also apply to the judgments that are made against the nations in Revelation.

Here is a significant point. Which nations?

Israel and Rome? or the gentile planet? Both?

The 7 seals and the 7 trumpets are both centered on Israel, on the people of Israel and the restoration of Jerusalem. Not the planet of gentile nations.

The plagues/vials of of Rev chs 15&16 are centered on the Roman beast. 

In Rev 20, the passage shows Jerusalem surrounded.

Pick a passage in the Rev to discuss, the trumpets for example, or whatever.

 

1 hour ago, Biblican said:

The term "History repeats itself" is very true and  it can also be said that "Prophecies repeat themselves" in certain instances.

They must be considered one prophecy at a time.

How about an example of what scripture you believe is repeated.

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2 hours ago, Biblican said:

Under the New Covenant, Gentiles believers who have received Jesus are also seen as Jews, the Israel of God, as we have been grafted in as the Apostle Paul taught. Therefore the imagery that is used in the Old Testament is applied to the church in Revelation. Many of the prophecies in the Old Testament are duel in nature, that is they can refer to other events in the future. As the prophecies  destruction were fulfilled in the Old Testmanet, those words also apply to the judgments that are made against the nations in Revelation. The term "History repeats itself" is very true and  it can also be said that "Prophecies repeat themselves" in certain instances.

Let me give you another example to think about, Acts 2:5.

It says that there were Jews from "every nation under heaven".

Were there Jews from N. America? S. America? Australia? Japan? No.

So what is the verse saying?

Is the "heaven" the atmosphere? Or the covenant?

It can't be the atmosphere of earth.

So what does it mean when it says "under heaven"?

 

[Biblican]

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

Yes

Try this, instead of using the word "church", use the word kingdom.

I believe the word church, in it's modern perception, tends to mean gentiles and not Jews Israel. Some today want to exclude Israel from the church/kingdom when Israel is the church/kingdom.

So what you might say is,"The imagery in OT  Israel is applied to the kingdom of Israel in Revelation."

The language of the OT Israel, is applied to the NT Israel.

The exclusion of flesh Israel from the prophecies distorts the meanings. 

I believe that this comes from the RCC efforts to alienate Israel and replace Israel with the Roman RCC.

As a result, some separate the (church) kingdom into gentile and Jews, saying that the gentiles are raptured and the rest of Israel remains. But this is not so, because the kingdom is Israel, both Jew and gentile. In the kingdom, both are looked on as the same. 

So if the kingdom is raptured, Jewish members of the kingdom are taken also.

 

Some say this, but it is not always true.

The prophecies concerning Jesus, His life, death and resurrection will not be repeated.

The prophecies concerning certain nations and their destruction will not be repeated.

Each prophecy must be considered individually to see if this is true.

In my opinion, by far, most OT prophecies are fulfilled.

 

Here is a significant point. Which nations?

Israel and Rome? or the gentile planet? Both?

The 7 seals and the 7 trumpets are both centered on Israel, on the people of Israel and the restoration of Jerusalem. Not the planet of gentile nations.

The plagues/vials of of Rev chs 15&16 are centered on the Roman beast. 

In Rev 20, the passage shows Jerusalem surrounded.

Pick a passage in the Rev to discuss, the trumpets for example, or whatever.

 

They must be considered one prophecy at a time.

How about an example of what scripture you believe is repeated.

===========================

 

I have to disagree with your assessment of the trumpets referring just to Israel. Those judgments are upon the entire planet, Gentiles and Jews.  Also if you are going to say that the Jews are the kingdom of God and they are raptured, that is only if they have received the Messiah Jesus. Otherwise they will have  to be left behind, because only the saved are raptured. I hope you don't ascribe to Cyrus Scofiled's flawed theology that the Jews are saved because they have a covenant with God.  That doctrine was not taught by the apostles. If you want my perspective on Revelation it is here  https://www.cafelogos.org/revelation.html

[Biblican]

2 hours ago, abcdef said:

Let me give you another example to think about, Acts 2:5.

It says that there were Jews from "every nation under heaven".

Were there Jews from N. America? S. America? Australia? Japan? No.

So what is the verse saying?

Is the "heaven" the atmosphere? Or the covenant?

It can't be the atmosphere of earth.

So what does it mean when it says "under heaven"?

 

The Greek word for heaven used in Acts 2:5 means heaven the covering above the earth and God's domain. It does not mean covenant. The phrase is a figure of speech meant to indicate a large number of Jews coming from the known world at that time.

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21 hours ago, Biblican said:

The Greek word for heaven used in Acts 2:5 means heaven the covering above the earth and God's domain.

Yes, 

1. Above the earth, the atmosphere, air, a created substance, an element.

2. The universe, stars, moon, outer space, the great void.

3. God's domain, heaven, where His throne is, He is often thought of as being above us. People worshiped in the "high places"to get closer to God. Mt. Sinai, Moses went up into the mountain.

As you read the Bible prophecies, each definition should be considered.

From a spiritual viewpoint, the focus should be on God's throne and it's relationship to the subject. In prophecy, I believe that this would be the first thing to be considered.

Most of the imagery/symbolism can be understood using this viewpoint.

The stars falling, the mountain falling into the seas, Satan's fall from heaven, all these indicate a "falling away" from God's throne and His glory blessings.

This is true from Genesis through the Revelation and one facet of great understanding hinges on it.

 

21 hours ago, Biblican said:

It does not mean covenant.

The reference to the scroll is one that Israel would understand as being the Torah scroll, the covenant. The covenant of Israel's protection. 

When they obeyed God, the covenant protected them. When they broke the covenant God's blessings of protection were withdrawn, seen as the "heaven" being rolled up as a scroll and departing. Shown in Isa 34:4, Rev 6:14

We know that the atmosphere didn't depart when Idumea (Edom) fell in Isa 34:4, so it can only mean God's throne "heaven".

Just understand that the author is using the same symbolism/imagery in the OT and the NT.

 

21 hours ago, Biblican said:

The phrase is a figure of speech meant to indicate a large number of Jews coming from the known world at that time.

Yes, the known, " world of Israel", "at that time". This is another facet of understanding.

Dan 2:39, says that the 3rd kingdom as brass will, "... bear rule over all the earth."

Greece never ruled the planet, but did rule all the known earth of Israel, what ever nation the people of Israel were in. Israel's world at that time, not the planet earth.

In the Revelation, it is the same viewpoint, the trumpets and etc., are focused on the people of Israel, the known earth of Israel, not the planet earth.

You see that some have expanded on the author's meaning of what the earth/world is in scripture.

The descriptions of the seals and trumpets are happening to the people of Israel and their world/earth. 

 

[Biblican]

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

Yes, 

1. Above the earth, the atmosphere, air, a created substance, an element.

2. The universe, stars, moon, outer space, the great void.

3. God's domain, heaven, where His throne is, He is often thought of as being above us. People worshiped in the "high places"to get closer to God. Mt. Sinai, Moses went up into the mountain.

As you read the Bible prophecies, each definition should be considered.

From a spiritual viewpoint, the focus should be on God's throne and it's relationship to the subject. In prophecy, I believe that this would be the first thing to be considered.

Most of the imagery/symbolism can be understood using this viewpoint.

The stars falling, the mountain falling into the seas, Satan's fall from heaven, all these indicate a "falling away" from God's throne and His glory blessings.

This is true from Genesis through the Revelation and one facet of great understanding hinges on it.

 

The reference to the scroll is one that Israel would understand as being the Torah scroll, the covenant. The covenant of Israel's protection. 

When they obeyed God, the covenant protected them. When they broke the covenant God's blessings of protection were withdrawn, seen as the "heaven" being rolled up as a scroll and departing. Shown in Isa 34:4, Rev 6:14

We know that the atmosphere didn't depart when Idumea (Edom) fell in Isa 34:4, so it can only mean God's throne "heaven".

Just understand that the author is using the same symbolism/imagery in the OT and the NT.

 

Yes, the known, " world of Israel", "at that time". This is another facet of understanding.

Dan 2:39, says that the 3rd kingdom as brass will, "... bear rule over all the earth."

Greece never ruled the planet, but did rule all the known earth of Israel, what ever nation the people of Israel were in. Israel's world at that time, not the planet earth.

In the Revelation, it is the same viewpoint, the trumpets and etc., are focused on the people of Israel, the known earth of Israel, not the planet earth.

You see that some have expanded on the author's meaning of what the earth/world is in scripture.

The descriptions of the seals and trumpets are happening to the people of Israel and their world/earth. 

 

We will have to agree to disagree. When the entire context of the book is taken into consideration, the meaning of the trumpets cannot apply to just Israel. This is especially true when we consider that the book of Revelation was given to encourage the persecuted church. 

When you are interpreting scripture you have to take in the context. If you are going to say that "heaven departing as a scroll" just applies to the Jews, verse 15 shows us that what is happening applies to the rulers of the earth as well. The latter part of chapter six is a picture of what happens just before Jesus returns. The sky is rolled back to reveal His descent and judgment on the wicked, thus those on the earth will be attempting to hide themselves from the great day of His wrath. Looking at the usage of that term in the Old Testament, this event will be upon the whole world, not just Israel.