When is the rapture?

[John n Claudia]

13 hours ago, Moby said:

I believe Rob proves that both the believing Jew and the believing Gentile are one in Christ as one olive tree in this link:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/12/19/all-israel/

I also believe he proves the believing Gentile becomes a citizen of the commonwealth of Israel the momet he or she becomes a Christian

Moby,

As i said, I have great respect for Rob and his work.  I also believe that the Gentile and Jew are one in Christ.  The difference in our beliefs is that Rob believes the joining togetherr of the Jews and the Church into one body will occur at the rapture before the Millennial Kingdom while I believe that this joining together will occur after the Great White Throne judgement at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.  The issue is not that the two groups are one in Christ today and will become one in actuality, but rather the timing of this joining together.

The following gives my reasoning for the joining together of these two groups into one occurring after the Millennial Kingdom.

In our current dispensation, anytime someone believes in Christ, they are joined into one body of believers.  This body of believers are the ones who are born again and become eligible for salvation in the first resurrection, when Jesus returns.  This is the new or wild olive tree that is referenced throughout scripture.  This includes anyone who has accepted Jesus as their Savior regardless of their biological heritage and includes people from every nation and language.  Everyone in this group will be raptured when Jesus returns and will receive their glorified body at that time.

Unfortunately, most of the Jews will not believe in Jesus as their Savior until after Jesus has already returned and accomplished all of the things that He is supposed to do as a Jewish Savior.  These activities include:

• Saving the Jews from earthly persecution from earthly enemies
• reuniting all twelve of the tribes as described in Revelation
• Defeating all of the earthly enemies of the Jews
• Establishing a kingdom that will last 1000 years

Until Jesus does all of this, the Jews as a nation will not accept Him as their savior.  Since the rapture occurs when Jesus returns, this will be before Jesus accomplishes the four points above and thus before the Jews accept Him as their savior.  All of this means that as a corporate body, the Jewish nation is not eligible for salvation until after the rapture and therefore only the individual Jews who have accepted Jesus, the Messianic Jews, will be included in the rapture.  None of the other Jews will not receive their glorified bodies at that time, and those who are not killed during the tribulation and Wrath of God will enter the Millennial Kingdom in the mortal bodies.

After the Millennial kingdom and the rebellion of Gog and Magog, everyone else who ever lived will be resurrected and go through the Great White Throne judgement.  At that time they are judged for their deeds rather than for their faith in Christ.  Those who are found worthy at this judgement will then receive a glorified body and join the raptured church in a single body with no more distinction between people.

 

 

13 hours ago, Moby said:

I obtained a copy of Rob's timeline and have posted it as a new topic: 

I did see that.  One of the problems I have with this timeline is that the locusts associated with the fifth trumpet are going to inflict pain for 5 months, but the timeline has the duration of the trumpets as 45 days.  This requires the trumpets to extend beyond the 45 days of the trumpets.

Another issue is that Daniel 12:12 tells us that everyone who arrives at day 1335 will be blessed.  According to this timeline however, day 1335 starts the 320 days of the bowls and the people who have to endure those will certainly not be blessed.

 

13 hours ago, Moby said:

I just reread Ezekiel chapter 40 thru 48 but I don't see anywhere where those chapters declare that this vision is a future temple to be built:

God does say in chapter 43 that the temple measured in chapter 40 thru 42 is the place of His throne, and the place of the soles of His feet, where He will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever which appears to prove this temple exists presently as a spiritual temple:

 

Throughout these chapters, we are given the size of rooms and the height of the gates.  We are told that the entire complex is to be 25,000 royal cubits and depending on the conversion from cubits to feet, this could be more than 10 miles on each side.  while 100 square miles is a significant amount of land, it pales in comparison to the city of New Jerusalem which is God's city at over 1300 miles in each direction.  This means that the scale of things on the earth is orders of magnitudes smaller than the scale of things in the heavens and therefore the temple described in Ezekiel must be something on the earth and not spiritual or heavenly.

The prophecy in Ezekiel with actual physical measurements describes an actual physical temple.  Since this temple has not been built in our past, then we are left with a choice to either:

• deny the Bible by saying that this prophecy is a false prophecy and it will not come to pass or
• accept the prophecy as a true prophecy and believe that this temple will be built in our future

I chose to believe that the Bible is true and therefore I believe that this temple will be built in the future.  I also believe that it will take supernatural intervention for this to occur given the current state of affairs in the Middle East.  Since I believe that the supernatural intervention will occur at the second coming of Christ, I have to believe that this temple will be built during the Millennial Kingdom and this will be built for the mortal people, Jews and Gentiles who are still living on the earth at this time.

 

13 hours ago, Moby said:

It appears to me that from chapters 45 to 48 that these are commands for Israel to follow as ordinances within the temple once Cyrus sends them to rebuild the temple as it says here:

It would be very hard for me to accept that this is a future temple to be rebuilt and sacrifices to commence again since Jesus is now our Passover Lamb for both the Jews and Gentiles who become believers and grafted into the one olive tree:

Since the description of the temple in Ezekiel in no way matches the second temple that was built, these must be two different temples and Ezekiel's temple has nothing to do with Cyrus.

I do understand the difficulty in accepting the need for sacrifices in the Millennial Kingdom given the reality of our current dispensation where our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus.  Nevertheless, the Bible does say that the temple will be built and that sacrifices will be made.  It also says that these sacrifices will be sin offerings so this means that the people living on the earth during the Millennial Kingdom, including the Jews who have God's Law written on their heart, will sin.

The way that we need to understand this is that the blood of Jesus covers those who accepted His sacrifice and are justified by our faith in Him and His sacrifice.  The Bible tells us that it is only those who are part of the first resurrection, those who are raptured prior to the Millennial Kingdom that are covered by the blood of Jesus.  We see this in Revelation 20:12 where we are told that everyone who was not a part of the first resurrection went before the Great White Throne and they were judged according to what they had done.  This means that everyone who will be alive on the earth during the Millennial Kingdom, both the Jews and the Gentiles, will be judged based on their deeds and they are not covered by the blood of Jesus the way that the believers are covered today.  Since they are not covered by the blood of Jesus, this means that any sin must be covered by something else and this is why the sacrificial system will be reinstituted.

 

13 hours ago, Moby said:

Based on this portion of Rob's link, it appears that the spirit of antichrist is a principality that controls all antichrists:

I very much agree with this.

I also believe that most people do not understand this and believe that the antichrist will be a specific individual.  Our enemy is a liar and everything he does is deception.  This is why I believe that we need to look at the general beliefs that are held by the world so that wee can understand what our enemy wants us to believe and this will give us additional insight into the truth.  Of course if our insights contradict any scripture, we must accept that these insights are also a deception of Satan and be willing to abandon them without hesitation.

With this in mind, because the world believes there will be a specific individual who is the antichrist, I believe that Satan will arrange things so that a specific individual will be identified by the world as the antichrist.  Since the world is also expecting Jesus to return at some point, I believe that Satan will arrange for a specific man to present himself to the whole world as a substitute for Jesus and give this man supernatural powers so that he can convince the world that he is God.  Of course this man will not be God.  While I do admit that there is a spirit of antichrist and all antichrists are controlled by Satan, I believe that this last antichrist will be a specific individual who will convince the religious establishments around the world to accept him as God because of his ability to do supernatural things after he is possessed by Satan.

I have found nothing in scripture that contradicts this scenario and it fits with the layers of deception that Satan has been laying down for the last 2000 years.

 

14 hours ago, Moby said:

This "spirit of error" is also referred to as a "prince" here that used Rome to destroys the temple in Jerusalem and the whole city which we know happened in 70 AD:

Daniel 9:25-26  Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.  (26)  And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined. 

Now please notice this same "prince" in verse 26 is about to make a firm covenant in the very near future proving that this prince has been alive for nearly 2000 years and also proves it is a spiritual principality:

There are many problems with interpreting the 70 weeks of Daniel to be a continuous set of 490 years.  Trying to put the destruction of the temple at 70 AD, and looking back in history, there is nothing significant that occurred seven years (1 week prior), 434 years (62 weeks), 441 years (63 weeks), 483 years (69 weeks) or 490 years (70 weeks) prior.  In order to interpret the 70 weeks, you have to look at what it actually says.

24“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and for your holy city for putting an end to the transgression, for making an end of sin, for forgiving iniquity, for bringing in everlasting justice, for setting the seal on vision and prophet, and for anointing the Especially Holy Place. 25Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes. It will remain built for sixty-two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; but these will be troubled times. 26Then, after the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing. The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over. 27He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.” (Daniel 9:24 - 27, CJB)

 

The first thing to note is that the purpose of the prophecy is to tell us when an anointed prince is going to arrive.  There are three times this will happen.  First when Cyrus arrives to conquer Nineveh and defeat Babylon, second when Jesus is born and third when Jesus returns in his second coming.

Most interpretations misunderstand the purpose of the prophecy and try to include the arrival of Cyrus as the starting point of the first 7 weeks rather than the ending point.  With this in mind and knowing that Cyrus conquered Babylon in 538 BC, we just have to look back 49 years to 538 + 49 = 587 BC.  This was one year before Jerusalem fell to Nebuchadnezzar and just happened to be the year that Isaiah prophesied that Cyrus would come as the anointed prince in Isaiah 45:1 - 3.  This means that the first 7 weeks represent the time from the announcement that Cyrus was the anointed prince who would issue the decree to restore Jerusalem and his actual arrival.  This is exactly what Daniel 9:25 states.  The decree was not the decree of Cyrus to rebuild the temple, but the decree of God through Isaiah that He would send Cyrus as the anointed prince.

Now let us look at the second set of 62 weeks.  Once again, the ending point is the arrival of the anointed prince and this time it is referring to the birth of Jesus in 3 BC.  62 week is 434 year so we need to find out what happened in 3 + 434 = 437 BC.  A quick google search will show that this is exactly the year that Nehemiah finished building the wall around Jerusalem.  This means that the second set of weeks describes the time from the completion of the wall until the arrival of the second anointed prince and just as the prophecy said, the wall around the city remained for all 434 years, but those were troubled times.

This now takes us to the third set of weeks.  Here there is only 1 week, so this means there will be seven years.  In describing these years the angel said:

The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over. 27He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.

Just as the first two sets of weeks were complete sets and not divided in to pieces, these last seven years are also one continuous set of years.  Note that the prince and the people are yet to come so this means the Prince is not Jewish.  Note also that this does not say the prince will make a covenant with the Jews.  It just states that he will make a covenant with leaders, so there is nothing in this passage that says the Jews are going to have any sort of peace agreement with this prince.  Since the fulfillment of this verse is still in our future, we need to interpret this with our knowledge of current events.  Knowing that there is no Jewish temple and the Jews are not currently making sacrifices and offerings in a Jewish temple, this portion needs to represent some other sort of sacrifice and offering.  The sacrifices and offerings that are currently being made by the Jews and the Church for God are our gathering together in corporate worship, supporting and praying for each other and monetary offerings to the churches and synagogues.  These are the sorts of things that will be stopped halfway through the week and they will be done because this is the abomination, when foreign armies overrun Jerusalem and the Jews flee for their lives.  Anyone who does not escape at this time will be thrown into concentration camps as described in Zechariah chapter 14.

As you can see, this interpretation manages to fit the sets of weeks into matching events in history that are all related to the coming of the anointed prince.  I have not yet seen any interpretation that manages to fit a continuous set of 490 years into a sequence of historical events related to the coming of an anointed prince.  If you have one, please let me know so that I can change my beliefs.

As I have stated multiple times, I wish that someone would point out errors in my interpretation of the various prophecies in the Bible.  I do not want to believe the scenario that has been burned into my consciousness as a result of my study.  It is of a horrible time where Satan layers deception upon deception and billions of people die horrible deaths.  It is a time where nearly everyone abandons their faith in God and willingly endorse the wholesale slaughter of others.  It is a time where the events we have already experienced in 2020 seem like a time of joy and prosperity.

Unfortunately, every other theory I have encountered regarding the last days ignores prophecies that contradict what they chose to believe.

 

 

[John n Claudia]

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I completely understand about the "sacrifices" and how the INFINITE value of the BLOOD OF CHRIST ended all blood sacrifices forever so "how can animal sacrifice" be spoken of? 

DeighAnn,

 

This is a very good question and it is one that is impossible to answer within the context of our current dispensation where we are covered by the blood of Christ.

The way that we need to understand this is that the blood of Jesus covers those who accepted His sacrifice and are justified by their faith in Him and His sacrifice.  The Bible tells us that it is only those who are part of the first resurrection, those who are raptured prior to the Millennial Kingdom that are covered by the blood of Jesus.  We see this in Revelation 20:12 where we are told that everyone who was not a part of the first resurrection went before the Great White Throne and they were judged according to what they had done.  This means that everyone who will be alive on the earth during the Millennial Kingdom, both the Jews and the Gentiles, will be judged based on their deeds and they are not covered by the blood of Jesus the way that the believers are covered today.  Since they are not covered by the blood of Jesus, this means that any sin must be covered by something else and this is why the sacrificial system will be re-instituted.

Just because we do not like the idea of animal sacrifices and they are not needed in our current church dispensation, does not give us the license to change or ignore the Scriptures.  Ezekiel is very clear that these sacrifices will be made and that the third Jewish temple will be built.  Any theory about the Millennial Kingdom that denies these prophecies is denying the Bible and must be rejected.

 

[DeighAnn]

22 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

DeighAnn,

 

This is a very good question and it is one that is impossible to answer within the context of our current dispensation where we are covered by the blood of Christ.

The way that we need to understand this is that the blood of Jesus covers those who accepted His sacrifice and are justified by their faith in Him and His sacrifice.  The Bible tells us that it is only those who are part of the first resurrection, those who are raptured prior to the Millennial Kingdom that are covered by the blood of Jesus.  We see this in Revelation 20:12 where we are told that everyone who was not a part of the first resurrection went before the Great White Throne and they were judged according to what they had done.  This means that everyone who will be alive on the earth during the Millennial Kingdom, both the Jews and the Gentiles, will be judged based on their deeds and they are not covered by the blood of Jesus the way that the believers are covered today.  Since they are not covered by the blood of Jesus, this means that any sin must be covered by something else and this is why the sacrificial system will be re-instituted.

Just because we do not like the idea of animal sacrifices and they are not needed in our current church dispensation, does not give us the license to change or ignore the Scriptures.  Ezekiel is very clear that these sacrifices will be made and that the third Jewish temple will be built.  Any theory about the Millennial Kingdom that denies these prophecies is denying the Bible and must be rejected.

 

I can't say you are wrong,  but I can sure hope. 

I figure if the blood of Jesus went back to the beginning, and covered them, and covers us, then it would just as well cover those asking for forgiveness in the future. 


Why bring back a system that

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Hebrews 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Hebrews 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Hebrews 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

didn't work out the first time?


Why keep them in that state for 1000yrs?  If we are going to be priests, wouldn't offering them forgiveness without remembrance which obviously works much better be the way to continue on?   I mean, Gods will is that all come to repentance.  Why not give the the best that is to be offered?  Isn't it punishment enough to have to go that day without being able to be near HIM?  IDK, 


Question for you
If God doesn't have PLEASURE THEREIN 

OR

do you think the lack of pleasure was because they were offered by the law?
 

[John n Claudia]

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I really liked reading all you wrote even the parts I am not on board with and I am going to pray for better writing skills so that I can put forth more like you do.  Any chance the antichrist can be a "group"/1st beast and the false prophet an "individual"/2nd beast" and Satan kick out as AoD either possessing the individual or taking over upon arrival leading his army.  Because one has many heads and the other just the one which would bring it together, maybe.  

DeighAnn,

Thank you for the kind words  I am confident that if you continue to seek after the Lord and study His Word, He will grant you wisdom and insight and improve your writing skills.  After receiving this blessing, the most important thing to remember is that every blessing is from the Lord, everything you have is a gift from Him.  We are not to become proud of our own abilities, but rather give thanks and glory to God who has blessed us.  If my writing brings glory to me, I have failed in my duty to God.  It is only when my writings draw people closer to God that I become a worthy servant.  From personal experience, I can tell you that this is often a difficult thing to remember and I have been chastened multiple times in the past for my pride.

With regard to your question there are multiple levels in just about every prophecy.  We are told that there is a spirit of antichrist and on a meta-level, just as the church is one body that is made up of many people, the antichrist can also be looked at as one body that is made up of many people. 

When I look at end time prophecies, I do not just look at what is written, but I also look at how the world interprets those prophecies.  I do this because our enemy is putting those interpretations out there because that is what he wants people to believe.  This means that if I am given an interpretation that does not contradict any other prophecy in the Bible and I also know what our enemy wants us to believe, I can get some insight into how he will use that incorrect interpretation to deceive the world.

I know this is hard to follow, so let me give you a concrete example.  Currently the whole world expects the antichrist to be a specific individual who will come from Eastern Europe and create a time of peace and prosperity during which the Jews build a third physical temple. 

Since there are multiple places in Isaiah and Micah where we are told that the person leading the war against the Jews during the last days is the king of Assyria, I have to reject the belief that there will be a person from Eastern Europe who will be this antichrist that everybody is expecting.  Instead, I believe Satan will set up a "fall-man" during the last days who will see injustices being done and will try to stop a war between Israel and her neighbors.  At first, this person will be successful in bringing the two sides to the negotiating table.  However, before any sort of agreement can be reached, a reporter will break a news story comparing this person to the antichrist that everybody is expecting.  After all, this will be a political leader from Eastern Europe who is trying to bring peace to the Middle East so the Jews can build a temple.  After the news story goes viral, this person will have to resign his post in disgrace, but it will have served the purpose of distracting the world from what is really happening.

While I believe that this will happen, there is no direct Biblical evidence or prophecies about this.  Instead, I am making this conclusion based on what Satan wants people to believe that contradicts what is actually prophesied in the Bible.  I hope this makes things a little clearer.

Based on this methodology, I personally believe that there will be a specific individual who will stand in the Holy Place and declare that he is God and that this individual could be classified as "THE Antichrist".  However this person will have multiple roles to play during the last days and I hesitate to identify him as "THE Antichrist".

With regard to the beast (the first beast with seven heads) and the false prophet (the second beast with two horns), these are both organizations.  The beast is an empire that is the resurrection of the empire system that started with Egypt.  As such, it will be a political and military organization.  Included in its constituents will be radicals that support the mission of the empire with all their being as well as others who are happy to adjust their beliefs so they can live under the protection offered by the empire, but would be just as content if there were some other government.  The second beast is made up of two religious groups (the two horns) that join together in order support the empire and agree with the specific individual mentioned in the previous paragraph when he declares that he is God.

[DeighAnn]

7 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

I know this is hard to follow, so let me give you a concrete example.  Currently the whole world expects the antichrist to be a specific individual who will come from Eastern Europe and create a time of peace and prosperity during which the Jews build a third physical temple. 

Yeah,  I don't see any of those to be Gods Truth.

But, I do not see any "resurrection" of old kingdoms just anew one that is comprised of the characteristics of the others we are given leopard, bear, etc. so that we can recognize it when it comes into play.  I don't think many will because, as you pointed out, they're  LOOKING for XYZ just like the Jews were looking for in Messiah and  that isn't what/who they expect so they see nothing at all.  

But we will have the two witnesses show up before it is too late to open the eyes of those who missed the beginning.  

Thank you for your reply, much appreciated.  

[John n Claudia]

18 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Why keep them in that state for 1000yrs?  If we are going to be priests, wouldn't offering them forgiveness without remembrance which obviously works much better be the way to continue on?   I mean, Gods will is that all come to repentance.  Why not give the the best that is to be offered?  Isn't it punishment enough to have to go that day without being able to be near HIM?  IDK, 


Question for you
If God doesn't have PLEASURE THEREIN 

OR

do you think the lack of pleasure was because they were offered by the law?

DeighAnn,

Again, some very good questions.

I have multiple reasons why I believe this, some with solid Biblical support, others with tenuous Biblical support but which are more theologically satisfying.

The thing that we must always remember is that every prophecy in the Bible will be fulfilled exactly as it was intended.  When the Bible describes a physical temple in which the Jews will worship and offer sacrifices, I can assure you that the temple will be built and the sacrifices will be offered.  It is because of this that I must believe that the temple described by Ezekiel  will be built during the Millennial Kingdom and the sacrifices that are described will be made.  This is also why I believe the Jews who worship in that temple will still be in their mortal bodies.  Since they are making sin offerings, this means that they will sin.  If they have also received their glorified body, this means that they have seen God as He is and they then willfully chose to disobey.  This is the same thing that Satan did and just as he will be punished, God will also punish anyone else who sins in this way.

Since the prophecy in unambiguous and the sacrifices are going to be made, this means that the only thing we can do is try and reason out why they will be necessary.  Denying that they will actually happen is denying the Bible and leads to apostasy.  This is why I look to the other scriptures to understand the difference between what is today, what was in the old testament and what will be in the Millennial Kingdom.  It is true that today in the Church, for the believers in Christ, we are judged based on our faith and sacrifices are no longer necessary because of what Jesus did.  But it is also true that the Church is the only group to which that applies.  Revelation 20:12 clearly states that everybody who was not raptured will be judged for their deeds.  This includes all the Old Testament saints as well as those living in the Millennial Kingdom. 

As far as your question of giving the best that is to be offered, the offer of the church was open to everyone and the people who are alive in their mortal bodies had rejected the offer.  If they rejected it during this age, why should this same offer be given again.  The offer in this age is conditioned on our faith that Jesus is the Messiah.  Once He returns and proves that He is the messiah, faith in His return no longer means anything because He has already returned.

In case this is confusing, let me try explaining it a different way.  Jesus told us that He was going to go away, but He would return and if we remained faithful and kept His commandments until He returned, we would be rewarded with eternal life and the forgiveness of sins.  This is conditional, so we only get the reward if we satisfy the conditions of being faithful and keeping His commandments from the time we are born again until the time Jesus returns.  Since time only moves forward and never backwards, this means that after Jesus has returned, it is impossible to satisfy the conditions because the return is already in the past.  Therefore in the Millennial Kingdom, the promise made to the Church is no longer available to anyone.

 In order to understand why God had no pleasure in the sacrifices that were made, we need to go back to the story of King Saul in 1 Samuel 15.  In this story, Saul was to kill all of the Amalekites along with all of their livestock and to destroy all of their possessions.  Instead of doing this, Saul got greedy.  He kept some of the Amalekites alive for slaves, kept the best of the sheep and oxen for his own use and kept all of the gold and precious jewels.  When confronted by Samuel, Saul made a lame excuse and said that he kept these things so he could make an offering to God.  In verse 22, Samuel clarifies what is required.  Before any sacrifice to God can be accepted, we must first obey the commands of God.  There is no pleasure in the sacrifice because God is only given lip-service and people have not completely devoted themselves to the obedience, love and worship of God.  It is this obedience, love and worship of God that defines us as members of His Church and without that fruit in our lives, we will not be saved when Jesus returns.  This is also why we are told that only those who endure and are faithful until the end will be saved.

[John n Claudia]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

But, I do not see any "resurrection" of old kingdoms just anew one that is comprised of the characteristics of the others we are given leopard, bear, etc. so that we can recognize it when it comes into play.  I don't think many will because, as you pointed out, they're  LOOKING for XYZ just like the Jews were looking for in Messiah and  that isn't what/who they expect so they see nothing at all.  

But we will have the two witnesses show up before it is too late to open the eyes of those who missed the beginning.  

DeighAnn,

the Bible tells us in Revelation 17:11 that the seven headed beast is an eighth empire.  He arises out of the head (empire) that received the mortal wound but did not die.  This is why I said that the last empire, the empire of the antichrist will be a resurrection of the last empire which killed the Roman Empire.

As far as the two witnesses are concerned, do not be surprised if the world and most of the people who claim to believe in Jesus completely miss these two witnesses.  These are not going to be two specific individuals who magically appear out of nowhere to call down plagues on the empire of the Antichrist.  These are going to be two groups of people who will be ridiculed and imprisoned for holding onto the belief that Jesus has not yet arrived on the earth when everyone else believes that he has already returned.  This is exactly why Jesus warned us in Matthew 24:23 and Mark 13:21 not to believe anyone who tells us that Jesus has already returned.

 

[DeighAnn]

14 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

DeighAnn,

the Bible tells us in Revelation 17:11 that the seven headed beast is an eighth empire.  He arises out of the head (empire) that received the mortal wound but did not die.  This is why I said that the last empire, the empire of the antichrist will be a resurrection of the last empire which killed the Roman Empire.

As far as the two witnesses are concerned, do not be surprised if the world and most of the people who claim to believe in Jesus completely miss these two witnesses.  These are not going to be two specific individuals who magically appear out of nowhere to call down plagues on the empire of the Antichrist.  These are going to be two groups of people who will be ridiculed and imprisoned for holding onto the belief that Jesus has not yet arrived on the earth when everyone else believes that he has already returned.  This is exactly why Jesus warned us in Matthew 24:23 and Mark 13:21 not to believe anyone who tells us that Jesus has already returned.

 

Let us agree to disagree as we do. Though I believe all the empires are of the one influence,

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 
The world powers that these animals represent are all combined into this one "beast".    

We may be saying the same thing in different ways though
 

 

29 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

The thing that we must always remember is that every prophecy in the Bible will be fulfilled exactly as it was intended.  When the Bible describes a physical temple in which the Jews will worship and offer sacrifices, I can assure you that the temple will be built and the sacrifices will be offered.  I

The two witnesses. 

"These are not going to be two specific individuals" 

so when the Bible describes two prophets as the two witnesses, how do they become

"These are not going to be two specific individuals who magically appear out of nowhere to call down plagues on the empire of the Antichrist.  These are going to be two groups of people ..."?

 

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

[The Light]

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

And if there is no proof then no conclusion can be drawn. It's just useless speculation. Because a prohibition does not exist does not mean any particular thing does exist. It's right back to unicorns;

"There's no proof unicorns do not exist, therefore they do." Poppycock. Balderdash. Humbug.

 

Right, no conclusion can be drawn. However, if you can produce a scripture, we can draw a conclusion, which is why I ask if there is such a scripture. And as for unicorns there is such proof, that is if you believe in the Word of God.

Psalms 29:6

He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn.

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

Yes. And there are many such hours. In fact every hour can be an hour you think not. But we aren't told to watch for His coming as that is happening at a top secret hour.

"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things,

you will know that He is near, right at the door."

"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see these things happening,

know that He is near, right at the door. " - Mark 13

"“Look at the fig tree and all the trees. When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. So also, when you see these things happening,

know that the kingdom of God is near. " - Luke 21

We are watching for these things happening. Then we know He is near. We aren't watching for His coming to know these things are near. And even if we see these things happening and we know He is near we still don't know the day and the hour. So yes, we are to be watching events and conditions as described in the Olivet Discourse. Jesus says that plain as day and three Gospels record this. The facts of the events and conditions as written in the Olivet Discourse are the clues to His nearness. 

 

He is coming when the 12 tribes see these things come to pass. Just check the coming at the 6th seal. There is no doubt that He is coming when people see these things come to pass. However, the fig tree has two harvests, and we know that the Gentiles will be the 1st harvest. That's a fact.

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's not like pretrib describes at all saying we won't see anything, we will see everything. 

 

You think that you have proven something, but what have you proven. You have proven what I already know. He is coming when they see these things come to pass. It is the 12 tribes that will see these things come to pass as it will be the 70th week of Daniel when God has turned His attention to the 12 tribes. There will be a harvest of the 12 tribes as we know that there are 144,000 first fruits that guarantee a harvest of the 12 tribes.

As for the Church they won't see all these things, they will escape all these things and stand before the son of man.

Luke 21

³⁶ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

[The Light]

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes. And as the scripture says, "...Your wrath has come..." At the 7th trump.

 

Right and if the Word said the nations ARE angry and your wrath has come, you might have a point.

Rev 11

¹⁸ And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

And you seem to forget:

Rev 10

⁷ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

And of course:

Rev 11

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

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There is no evidence from Rev 8 wrath has begun. 

"“Go, pour out on the earth the seven bowls of God’s wrath.”" - Rev 16

 

Maybe you have trouble understanding that at the end of the 6th seal Jesus has come and they know wrath is come. When do they see the wrath begin? When the 7th seal is opened and the 1st trumpet sounds.

Rev 6

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

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The bowls, or vials, are called God's wrath. The trumpets are not. But here we go again with uni-horned horses. "There's no evidence the trumps aren't wrath, therefore they are." This is a false premise. An appeal to ignorance. Shifting the burden of proof. It's weak sauce.

"The trumpets cannot begin until the 7th seal is opened" Says who? Any evidence of that 'cannot happen'? We are once again using a lack of evidence as positive proof.

"Therefore the 7th trumpet cannot occur during the 6th seal." This is based on the first premise which lacks evidence and is therefore not true.

"You need to face the facts that who ever is teaching you these things, needs to rethink what they are teaching."  Sorry, can't rewrite scripture.

And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”" - Rev 6

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ,and He will reign forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:

“We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.

The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come." - Rev 11

 

So riddle me this. So, you don't think that slaying 1/3 of mankind happens during the wrath of God.

Rev 9

¹⁴ Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

¹⁵ And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

¹⁶ And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

¹⁷ And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

¹⁸ By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

¹⁹ For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

²⁰ And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

And then how do 1/3 of mankind get killed at the 6th trump and the Euphrates is not dry for them to cross until the 6th vial. Makes ZERO sense. That should you tell you that the trumps and vials are just different views of what will happen, meaning that both the trumpets and vials are God's wrath.

It seems obvious that your logic is failing. You seem to be having problems drawing proper conclusions beginning with the fact that Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood.

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You are free to deny this but there is no escaping the presence of the Lord God and the onset of wrath at the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet. Everyone is hiding from the One on the Throne and the Lamb's wrath at the 6th seal. At the 7th trump Jesus has taken power and begun to reign and His wrath has come. The verb 'erchomai' is the same in each instance and is defined;  'to come, go" The usage:

"a. of persons; α. universally, to come from one place into another, and used both of persons arriving  and of those returning,"

 

Right. No use reading and understanding that the mystery of God is finished when the 7th angel begins to blow the trumpet.

No use reading and understanding that the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our God at the 7th trumpet.

I guess these verses mean nothing. *time for weak unicorn response when you got nothing.

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This is a perfect fit for the Coming of Jesus as it's both an arrival and a return. It's 'Your wrath' and 'Their wrath' that's the object here so that is an arrival of the wrath bringer. Pretrib would demand this happens twice and demand the trumps are wrath when that is never said and in fact is contradicted by the direct statement the bowls are God's wrath.

 

If you had any understanding you would realize that you are looking at the Great Tribulation in Rev 6 at the 5th seal and you are looking at the Great Tribulation in Rev 14 just before Jesus comes. Not much chance you can do anything with the truth, is there?

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Yes. But how is 'ekpheugo' twisted into 'being forcibly taken from one place to go to another'? The word for escape is a personal flight and not, as pretrib requires, a snatching away, to wit:

Escape:

ekpheugó: to flee away
Definition: to flee away
Usage: I flee out, away, escape; with an acc: I escape something.

This escape is not the same as 'caught up' from 1 Thess 4. Behold:

harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.

 

 

The logical gymnastics required to equate the two is astonishing.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that you need to be WORTHY TO FLEE? Where are you fleeing to? I know where I am escaping to, and that is to stand before the son of man just like the Word says.

Edited September 9, 2020 by The Light