David1701 Posted September 25, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.51 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2020 19 hours ago, Josheb said: Thanks. I must say I disagree with Baker's. They were doing fine when mentioning the matter of being "just" and acquitted but that is not the same as being righteous. Rightness is not the same as righteousness. Linguistic similarity is not identicalness. These are problems of equivalency. There is therefore content even within Baker's explanation that leads to an understanding liberties were taken with the assumption justification means righteous. It's odd that Baker would appeal to the term as a legal term and then not use the legal definition. Legally justification is nothing more than an acceptance or valid basis for conditions existent or acts committed. It does not mean righteous. Our saved condition is justified - accepted or valid - by faith. We have a legal standing before God by faith. That is not the same thing as being righteous before God because we believed. This hints at either a works-based soteriology or one that emphasizes volition over the work of Christ and causality of God and His grace. But I think your for the link. Much appreciated. The definition you have given for "justification" (a modern, forensic definition of the English word) is not the same as the meaning of the Greek word it translates. Acceptance with God is a consequence of justification, not the justification itself. Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words defines the Greek word as, primarily, "the act of pronouncing righteous", with quite a lot of additional explanation following. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted September 25, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.51 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2020 1 minute ago, Walter Goraj jr said: Disagree. There is a reason why the translator chooses one word over another. The KJV is a better translation because: 1) we are not righteous ..we are sinners. 2) To be "just" means you have been JUSTIFIED. To be justified means to be made righteous, yes. But when God the Father sees His redeemed, He looks at us through Christ's righteousness: " And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith " (Phil.3:9) ( and yes the newer versions have faith IN Christ, which is incorrect, because it's not your faith that is righteous.) The just ( those who have the righteousness of Christ) shall live by ( His) faith. To be justified does not mean to be made righteous, it means to be declared righteous (i.e. to have righteousness imputed to you). How does living by "His" faith work in practice? When you come across a situation that requires trust in God (actually all situations require that!), then what do you do? Do you say to yourself that you can't trust in the Lord, because that would be living by your own faith? This is just gobbledygook! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don19 Posted September 25, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 578 Content Per Day: 0.39 Reputation: 255 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/28/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2020 42 minutes ago, David1701 said: To be justified does not mean to be made righteous, it means to be declared righteous (i.e. to have righteousness imputed to you). How does living by "His" faith work in practice? When you come across a situation that requires trust in God (actually all situations require that!), then what do you do? Do you say to yourself that you can't trust in the Lord, because that would be living by your own faith? This is just gobbledygook! In Gal 2:20, Paul says he lives by the faith of the Son of God in the same breath as he says he is crucified with Christ. That's more than just trusting in God, which was possible before Christ. This is the spiritual state of the born again believer. That is, to be dead and for our life to be hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3). That is, because in order to plunder the strong man's house, you must first bind the strong man of the house, and then you can plunder his goods. So too are believers (by nature, "Satan" - Mat 16:23, "evil" - Luke 11:13) bound just like Satan by Christ. So this is the sense in which born again believers are "dead" or "crucified." That is, to have received the earnest of the Spirit, the personal guarantee of eternal life. So this is not only trusting in God, but knowing with certainty that you are not your own, but God's purchased possession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 On 9/3/2020 at 9:41 PM, Michael37 said: Things not seen, yet evident, comes to mind. Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Faith demonstrates our trust in the words of Jesus. We can't please Him without faith. Our trust is essential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted September 25, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.51 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Don19 said: In Gal 2:20, Paul says he lives by the faith of the Son of God in the same breath as he says he is crucified with Christ. That's more than just trusting in God, which was possible before Christ. This is the spiritual state of the born again believer. That is, to be dead and for our life to be hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3). That is, because in order to plunder the strong man's house, you must first bind the strong man of the house, and then you can plunder his goods. So too are believers (by nature, "Satan" - Mat 16:23, "evil" - Luke 11:13) bound just like Satan by Christ. So this is the sense in which born again believers are "dead" or "crucified." That is, to have received the earnest of the Spirit, the personal guarantee of eternal life. So this is not only trusting in God, but knowing with certainty that you are not your own, but God's purchased possession. I'll repeat what I've already posted twice, in this thread, about "the faith of" compared with "faith in". The phrase "the faith of Jesus Christ", in various places in the NT, in some translations, is ambiguous. If it is an objective genitive, then it means "the faith of which Jesus Christ is the object" (i.e. faith in Jesus Christ). If it is a subjective genitive, then it means "Jesus Christ's faith". Those translations that say, "the faith of Jesus Christ" are probably deliberately keeping ambiguity, because they are uncertain whether it is an objective or subjective genitive. Quote So too are believers (by nature, "Satan" - Mat 16:23, "evil" - Luke 11:13) bound just like Satan by Christ. This is nonsense. Believers have a new nature. We are new creations, behold all things have become new. We have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God's beloved Son. Quote So this is the sense in which born again believers are "dead" or "crucified." Wrong again! We are dead to the law, because we were crucified with Christ, when he died on the cross; therefore, we died with him. We were also raised with him, when he rose from the dead, so that we walk in newness of life, not by law, but by being led by the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don19 Posted September 26, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 578 Content Per Day: 0.39 Reputation: 255 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/28/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted September 26, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, David1701 said: I'll repeat what I've already posted twice, in this thread, about "the faith of" compared with "faith in". The phrase "the faith of Jesus Christ", in various places in the NT, in some translations, is ambiguous. If it is an objective genitive, then it means "the faith of which Jesus Christ is the object" (i.e. faith in Jesus Christ). If it is a subjective genitive, then it means "Jesus Christ's faith". Those translations that say, "the faith of Jesus Christ" are probably deliberately keeping ambiguity, because they are uncertain whether it is an objective or subjective genitive. Well, since the syntax is apparently unclear, I say that context should guide our interpretation. Paul is expanding upon being crucified with Christ here. Quote This is nonsense. Believers have a new nature. We are new creations, behold all things have become new. We have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God's beloved Son. The way in which we are translated into the kingdom is that we are dead to sin - that is, freed from the law of sin and death. We are, as it were, bound, insofar as God claims us as His personal possessions (Matthew 13:44-46, 1 Cor 6:19-20). This necessarily means we don't have the free will to choose to give up our salvation. If we had that, then the strong man of the house isn't bound, nor could it be said that we are dead or crucified. But the binding of the strong man of the house is precisely the picture Jesus paints vis-a-vis translation into the kingdom of God out of Satan's kingdom (Matthew 12:24-37). Paul further describes believers as the objects of God's act of sealing by the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13, 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22). Jesus referred to Peter as Satan - there's no difference here, as by nature, we're children of the devil and obey him and his lusts. Jesus addressed Peter as a natural man, as neither he nor any other disciple had received the Holy Spirit yet (John 7:37-39). The Spirit is life because of righteousness (Rom 8:10) - that is, the righteousness freely credited to us, an alien righteousness - and because He has sealed us and given us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Quote Wrong again! We are dead to the law, because we were crucified with Christ, when he died on the cross; therefore, we died with him. We were also raised with him, when he rose from the dead, so that we walk in newness of life, not by law, but by being led by the Holy Spirit. This is all true, and is not in conflict with what I said. Edited September 26, 2020 by Don19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterlag Posted September 26, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 115 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/08/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 26, 2020 8 hours ago, David1701 said: I'll repeat what I've already posted twice, in this thread, about "the faith of" compared with "faith in". The phrase "the faith of Jesus Christ", in various places in the NT, in some translations, is ambiguous. If it is an objective genitive, then it means "the faith of which Jesus Christ is the object" (i.e. faith in Jesus Christ). If it is a subjective genitive, then it means "Jesus Christ's faith". Those translations that say, "the faith of Jesus Christ" are probably deliberately keeping ambiguity, because they are uncertain whether it is an objective or subjective genitive. This is nonsense. Believers have a new nature. We are new creations, behold all things have become new. We have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God's beloved Son. Wrong again! We are dead to the law, because we were crucified with Christ, when he died on the cross; therefore, we died with him. We were also raised with him, when he rose from the dead, so that we walk in newness of life, not by law, but by being led by the Holy Spirit. Oh My God... somebody gets it. Lord do you see this? Someone understands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterlag Posted September 26, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 115 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/08/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 26, 2020 I see the "sin nature" as something that existed before Jesus Christ destroyed it when the spirit of Christ came within the believer. This spirit is indeed a life form that is in all Christians and it seems to me one cannot understand and therefore function or be in the spirit if our old nature (which is dead) thinks in it's unrenewed mind that it suppose to be fighting against the new nature. Paul wrote in Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:" That's what I'm talking about. I now understand being in Christ is being in the spirit and neither of them (in Christ or in the spirit) has anything to do with the darn flesh. It now seems perfectly clear to walk in the spirit is the same as putting on the Lord Jesus Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desopixi Seilynam Posted September 26, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,008 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 307 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/12/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted September 26, 2020 On 9/23/2020 at 6:49 AM, Walter Goraj jr said: Well I certainly appreciate the feedback. There many Christians that have searched the scriptures and came to the understanding that we were chosen by God before the foundation of the world (Eph.1:4) because we can not and would not choose Him, being dead in sins and trespasses (Eph.2:1). Once your eyes are open to this truth, you will have the proper foundation to understand verses like Acts 17:30, 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9. I hope to explain further. Have to work! Foundation In other words, things that come first. Therefore, Genesis would be first then Exodus .... So Acts 17:30 would be a foundation to Ephesians, as well as all of the many scripture verses that I gave in my reply that you quoted. The foundation to understand the letters from Paul, which are letters to Christians. Are Matthew Mark Luke John and Acts. It is Paul himself in Acts 17:30 who says "God commands all men everywhere to repent". Before the foundation of the world, God planned on sending His Son to suffer death on behalf of all creation. All mankind, every single person is therefore included in that plan, because, His Son came and died, as a man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted September 26, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.51 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 26, 2020 10 hours ago, Don19 said: Well, since the syntax is apparently unclear, I say that context should guide our interpretation. Paul is expanding upon being crucified with Christ here. The way in which we are translated into the kingdom is that we are dead to sin - that is, freed from the law of sin and death. We are, as it were, bound, insofar as God claims us as His personal possessions (Matthew 13:44-46, 1 Cor 6:19-20). This necessarily means we don't have the free will to choose to give up our salvation. If we had that, then the strong man of the house isn't bound, nor could it be said that we are dead or crucified. But the binding of the strong man of the house is precisely the picture Jesus paints vis-a-vis translation into the kingdom of God out of Satan's kingdom (Matthew 12:24-37). Paul further describes believers as the objects of God's act of sealing by the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13, 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22). Jesus referred to Peter as Satan - there's no difference here, as by nature, we're children of the devil and obey him and his lusts. Jesus addressed Peter as a natural man, as neither he nor any other disciple had received the Holy Spirit yet (John 7:37-39). The Spirit is life because of righteousness (Rom 8:10) - that is, the righteousness freely credited to us, an alien righteousness - and because He has sealed us and given us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. This is all true, and is not in conflict with what I said. The strong man of the house refers to the devil, not us. Jesus referred to Peter as "Satan" (which means "adversary") because Peter said something contrary to what the Lord came to do (go to the cross). This does not mean that Peter had the nature of Satan! We WERE, by nature, children of wrath; but not any more (if you are born again). The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, so he certainly does not have faith in the Lord, as the disciples had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts