iamlamad Posted October 13, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted October 13, 2020 5 hours ago, Speks said: Well, the bottom line is application — thinking about God's Word carefully is what we all agree on. Peoples' alleged experiences shouldn't be used to confirm Scripture. Is it possible this can happen because a passage of Scripture was familiar to them in the first place? An overemphasis on visions and out-of-body experiences typically works to draw attention to those who experience them. It virtually becomes the centre of a 'ministry' perhaps, or a book that's heavily promoted. Such experiences in Scripture, genuinely coming from God, will glorify the Father, magnifying Christ and His work. In themselves such experiences are never the focus of attention. Getting the balance is important. There are those who go way too far in the other direction, which doesn't fairly reflect scriptural truth, in my opinion. Supernatural events have been happening to God's people since Genesis. How do we know about them? Probably because those to whom they happened, told others what happened. For example, how would anyone know what happened to Jonah unless he told someone? Paul was taken to heaven, probably when he was stoned to death. He told the story, but he was not allowed to tell us what He saw or heard. Others have been allowed. I just heard a story of heaven yesterday. He was reluctant to tell it, but God told him he must tell it. He told the reason God called him to heaven; to tell the people that Jesus is coming back! He tried to argue with Jesus, saying, "they know that." This man very seldom tells his story. The fact is, people get so busy with life they don't think about His coming. Or, they get into some tangent from the truth and imagine they should be looking for the Beast first. We are suppose to be EXPECTING Him any time. I agree, someone's supernatural experience, if they have one, should not be their primary focus. Balance is needed, as you say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adstar Posted October 21, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2020 On 10/10/2020 at 10:53 PM, R. Hartono said: They were the great multitude taken to the heaven in Revelation 7. The great multitude in heaven described in the Book of revelation are the souls of those who have been saved through the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ down throughout the ages and who have died.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adstar Posted October 21, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2020 On 10/12/2020 at 10:55 PM, iamlamad said: Exactly what Paul's pretrib rapture will accomplish. I don't believe Paul described a pre-trib rapture.. He did describe a last trumpet rapture.. And when The Lord Jesus returns there will be a sounding of a trumpet.. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52) "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, {52} In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (Matthew 24:29-31) "¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: {30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. {31} And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted October 21, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2020 Just now, Adstar said: The great multitude in heaven described in the Book of revelation are the souls of those who have been saved through the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ down throughout the ages and who have died.. Sorry, but there is not one hint that they are the spirits and souls of those who have passed on. And they are seen in heaven just after the timing Paul gives for His rapture. Just putting two passages together..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted October 21, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2020 Just now, Adstar said: I don't believe Paul described a pre-trib rapture.. He did describe a last trumpet rapture.. And when The Lord Jesus returns there will be a sounding of a trumpet.. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52) "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, {52} In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (Matthew 24:29-31) "¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: {30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. {31} And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." The passage you show is a gathering, but it is not and cannot be Paul's gathering. Nice try, but a mistaken try. Paul did not say "the last trump IN SCRIPTURE or in the bible. People try and change what he said. Without a doubt, "last trump" is the last of a SERIES of trumpets - but Paul does not tell us what series. The truth is, to find the timing of the rapture, we have to look to PAUL and to no one else. He along received the revelation of the rapture. He tells us that the rapture will come JUST before the start of wrath. To know for sure, one would have to know where the "trib" and the rapture is on a timeline. Since Jesus did not talk about Paul's rapture, we really can't use his Olivet discourse timeline, and get close. He pinpoints the midpoint of the week by mentioning the abomination. On the other hand, Revelation shows us the start of wrath, and by that we can use the timeline of Revelation. One difficulty in using the Revelation timeline is that God did not show the rapture to John, or the "last trumpet, so it is not there. However, John was allowed to see the raptured church in heaven shortly after the rapture. The sad fact is, few people know where "the trib" is in Revelation to compare. Many think it begins with the first seal. They are mistaken. Sill others say the days of great tribulation are at the 5th seal. They are mistaken. So people say "i'm pretrib" but cannot prove it in scipture. Others say "I'm prewrath," and cannot prove it in scripture. Still others say, "I'm posttrib" and they cannot prove it either - although people from all these groups THINK they can prove their theory. It should be plain to all that God did not make it clear in scripture so we would be watching all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adstar Posted October 21, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2020 13 minutes ago, iamlamad said: The passage you show is a gathering, but it is not and cannot be Paul's gathering. Nice try, but a mistaken try. Paul did not say "the last trump IN SCRIPTURE or in the bible. People try and change what he said. Without a doubt, "last trump" is the last of a SERIES of trumpets - but Paul does not tell us what series. The truth is, to find the timing of the rapture, we have to look to PAUL and to no one else. He along received the revelation of the rapture. He tells us that the rapture will come JUST before the start of wrath. To know for sure, one would have to know where the "trib" and the rapture is on a timeline. Since Jesus did not talk about Paul's rapture, we really can't use his Olivet discourse timeline, and get close. He pinpoints the midpoint of the week by mentioning the abomination. On the other hand, Revelation shows us the start of wrath, and by that we can use the timeline of Revelation. One difficulty in using the Revelation timeline is that God did not show the rapture to John, or the "last trumpet, so it is not there. However, John was allowed to see the raptured church in heaven shortly after the rapture. The sad fact is, few people know where "the trib" is in Revelation to compare. Many think it begins with the first seal. They are mistaken. Sill others say the days of great tribulation are at the 5th seal. They are mistaken. So people say "i'm pretrib" but cannot prove it in scipture. Others say "I'm prewrath," and cannot prove it in scripture. Still others say, "I'm posttrib" and they cannot prove it either - although people from all these groups THINK they can prove their theory. It should be plain to all that God did not make it clear in scripture so we would be watching all the time. I disagree.. Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15 and the portion i was quoting was him description of the rapture and it's timing.. So yes the rapture will happen on the sounding of the Last Trumpet and that is the last of the 7 trumpets in Revelation and it is the one that sounds when Jesus returns to earth after the tribulation.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bible_Gazer Posted October 21, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 450 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 152 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/05/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2020 On 10/3/2020 at 8:26 AM, Charlie744 said: Consequently, from my point of view, the only reason why God would insert the word “RATHER” is to tell us this message speaks to the understanding (attempted, since there is no way we can fully appreciate being in His presence), we should / will learn just how much more we will rather be with Him than stay in this life .. death is not the end to fear. And this is the PRIMARY message and not that the next second we will be with Him. So, what do you think is the PRIMARY message and your thoughts on this? Thank you, Charlie Spot on Paul - Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. I think Paul is talking about being with the Lord Jesus. For that to happen we must shed this earthly house and put into a new house. Like it say in 2Co.5:1-2 Seem to be that we as humanity cannot be in heaven without a body. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted October 21, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2020 6 hours ago, Adstar said: I disagree.. Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15 and the portion i was quoting was him description of the rapture and it's timing.. So yes the rapture will happen on the sounding of the Last Trumpet and that is the last of the 7 trumpets in Revelation and it is the one that sounds when Jesus returns to earth after the tribulation.. I agree, Paul wrote both 1 Cor. and 1 Thes. But the ONLY timing information given in the 1 Cor. passage is that it is at the "last trump." Paul's last trumpet is certainly NOT the 7th trumpet of Revelation. That is myth. There is no coming at the 7th trumpet. You cannot show a coming there because John did not write of a coming at the 7th trumpet. People have been trying, unsuccessfully for years to make the 7th trumpet the "last trump." No one has ever proved it, because it cannot be proven. It is not the say trump. When Paul wrote, "last trump," He did not add any more words. "last" tells us there must be a first." It is telling us Paul is talking about a series of trumpets - such as sound at the feast of trumpets. Did you know that the feast of trumpets is the only feast where "no man knows the day nor the hour? The series of trumpets in Revelation are JUDGMENTS. The rapture will not be a judgment. They are sounded by angels, but at the rapture, God will sound the trumpet. There is one thing you got right: the 7th trumpet in Revelation is the last trumpet of that series. It is not the series Paul was talking about. Finally, the "trump of God" will certainly be the "last trump" of the church age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adstar Posted October 22, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2020 15 hours ago, iamlamad said: I agree, Paul wrote both 1 Cor. and 1 Thes. But the ONLY timing information given in the 1 Cor. passage is that it is at the "last trump." Paul's last trumpet is certainly NOT the 7th trumpet of Revelation. That is myth. There is no coming at the 7th trumpet. You cannot show a coming there because John did not write of a coming at the 7th trumpet. People have been trying, unsuccessfully for years to make the 7th trumpet the "last trump." No one has ever proved it, because it cannot be proven. It is not the say trump. When Paul wrote, "last trump," He did not add any more words. "last" tells us there must be a first." It is telling us Paul is talking about a series of trumpets - such as sound at the feast of trumpets. Did you know that the feast of trumpets is the only feast where "no man knows the day nor the hour? The series of trumpets in Revelation are JUDGMENTS. The rapture will not be a judgment. They are sounded by angels, but at the rapture, God will sound the trumpet. There is one thing you got right: the 7th trumpet in Revelation is the last trumpet of that series. It is not the series Paul was talking about. Finally, the "trump of God" will certainly be the "last trump" of the church age. John wrote at the 7th trumpet that a mystery will be revealed a mystery spoken of by the Prophets and Paul was revealing a mystery and he was giving prophetic utteraces in 1 Cor. Pauls Rapture revelation.. (1 Corinthians 15:50-52) "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. {51} Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, {52} In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." The last trumpet sounding in the book of Revelation.. (Revelation 10:7) "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." When Jesus appears in the sky and all eyes see Him any mystery about who He is will be removed.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted October 22, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2020 59 minutes ago, Adstar said: John wrote at the 7th trumpet that a mystery will be revealed a mystery spoken of by the Prophets and Paul was revealing a mystery and he was giving prophetic utteraces in 1 Cor. Pauls Rapture revelation.. (1 Corinthians 15:50-52) "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. {51} Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, {52} In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." The last trumpet sounding in the book of Revelation.. (Revelation 10:7) "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." When Jesus appears in the sky and all eyes see Him any mystery about who He is will be removed.. If one were to read ahead and SEE what the mystery is at the 7th trumpet, one would find it is NOT any of Paul's mysteries. Just because one can find the same word in two verses does not mean they are speaking of the same thing. What really happens when the 7th trumpet is sounded? First, the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ. This tells us that before this time, Satan was the possessor of the kingdoms of the world. Paul confirmed this when he wrote that Satan is the "god of this world." Part of this mystery then would be to ask WHY HERE at this time? What has happened that would cause a change that has gone on since Adam? Second, Michael is told to go to war with Satan and take His wings away from him: confine him to earth. And this fits perfectly with Satan losing his throne as the god of this world. The mystery then may well be, HOW did Satan become the God of this world and remain in that position for 6000 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts