Comma Johanneum

[Always a Moon]

Blessings all! I would like to discuss the Comma Johanneum and its importance. I've learned that the emboldened text below from 1 John 5:7-8 was not included in the bible until the 16th Century and that it is not in other cultures' translations. I've been ruminating on this issue for awhile, and I would be glad for some insight. 

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the Water, and the Blood, and these three agree in one." 

So it was not found in many Greek manuscripts until the 15th Century. Some ancient Latin manuscripts contain it, but it is not in the Vulgate. Under pressure from the Catholic Church, it was added to the Textus Receptus, resulting in its being in the KJV/NKJV. How significant is this? Adding to God's Word is forbidden, obviously (Rev 22:18), but furthermore, what are the ramifications of this in people's understanding of the Word? 

[David1701]

1 hour ago, Always a Moon said:

Blessings all! I would like to discuss the Comma Johanneum and its importance. I've learned that the emboldened text below from 1 John 5:7-8 was not included in the bible until the 16th Century and that it is not in other cultures' translations. I've been ruminating on this issue for awhile, and I would be glad for some insight. 

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the Water, and the Blood, and these three agree in one." 

So it was not found in many Greek manuscripts until the 15th Century. Some ancient Latin manuscripts contain it, but it is not in the Vulgate. Under pressure from the Catholic Church, it was added to the Textus Receptus, resulting in its being in the KJV/NKJV. How significant is this? Adding to God's Word is forbidden, obviously (Rev 22:18), but furthermore, what are the ramifications of this in people's understanding of the Word? 

1 John 5:7, if I recall correctly, is contained in about 95% of all extant Latin Vulgate manuscripts (there are about 8,000 Latin Vulgate manuscripts).  It is also in Old Latin manuscripts (upon which the Vulgate was based).

It is quoted, or paraphrased, by various Early Church Fathers, from the 3rd Cent. A.D. onwards.

The KJV translators had sixteen Greek manuscripts that contained 1 John 5: nine of them contained 1 John 5:7.

The R.C. organisation has never used the Textus Receptus, although it was a Roman Catholic who first compiled it (Erasmus).

Some Early Church Fathers complained about 1 John 5:7 being REMOVED from Greek manuscripts.

The Latin speaking Church complained strongly, when Jerome REMOVED 1 John 5:7 from his Latin Vulgate translation (they knew it from the Old Latin that was used before the Vulgate), accusing him of using corrupt manuscripts.  It was later added back in (in the 800s A.D.).

Some African Church leaders used 1 John 5:7 against the Arians (Trinity deniers) in the 5th C. A.D., which they would not have done, if it had been regarded as an addition to the text.

This is all from memory, because it's late here and I don't have time to check it all.

Edited October 13, 2020 by David1701

[Buddy D. Mouse]

I don't use 1 John 5:7 to prove the Trinity, just because non-trinitarians squeal like pigs about it "not really being in the Bible" - blah blah blah

Non- trinitarians also balk at the Great Commission with its Trinitarian baptismal formula.

David1701's comments seem good to me too, going from just memory.

Johannine Comma is in KJV and NKJV as well. NKJV is the New Testament of the Orthodox Study Bible too.

I can see Trinitarian interpretations of "let US make man in our image" way early in Genesis.

Unitarians, Oneness Pentecostals and others who don't believe in Trinity are going to deny, deny, deny the Comma to support their doctrines.

 

 

[Buddy D. Mouse]

Rev 22:18

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

Rev 22:19

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

This warning is specific to the Book of Revelation; though other warnings about adding to God's word can be found in the Old Testament - the Revelation warnings are specific to THIS BOOK.

Different denominations are guided by different methods. Orthodox and Catholic will believe in Trinity because their magisteriums teach it. I am Wesleyan Quadrilateral - Scripture is primary, but also guided by Reason, Tradition and Experience. Protestants who are Sola Scriptura are the most likely to HAVE TO DECIDE what was original or not regarding the Comma.  R. C. Sproul said he thought 1 John 5:7 was a GLOSS - yet he believes in the thought of it, iow, he believes in Trinity but thinks the Comma was added later.

 

[Deborah_]

When Erasmus compiled his first edition of the Greek New Testament, he left this text out because he found no Greek manuscript containing it. After complaints, he agreed to put it into the second edition because a single (very late) Greek manuscript was found that did have it. Since then, no other Greek manuscripts containing these words have turned up, so they remain highly disputed.

The KJV was translated from the second edition of Erasmus' NT, so it contains the disputed text. But when Luther made the first German translation of the NT, he used the first edition. And so NO German Bible has ever contained these words! 

Modern English Bibles don't contain it either (it's usually put in a footnote) because it's absent from all early Greek manuscripts. It seems to have crept into the Latin translations quite early (these would have been the ones used by African church leaders) and has persisted because it is so useful. And it doesn't contradict the rest of the Bible, so you could say that it's an 'addition' that does no harm.

It's unwise to use I John 5:7 as a proof-text of the Trinity, though, because it has such dubious provenance. But we don't need it, as there is plenty of evidence elsewhere in Scripture.

[Eddy Crocker]

I have done a little study on this topic many years ago. I found out that this passage of scripture is very biblical. It lines up with What Paul wrote in...,

1 Corinthians 15:2-4

 

² By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

³ For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

⁴ And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

These  scriptures tells us the gospel by which we are saved by. Paul tells us we are saved by the death, burial, and resurrection, of Jesus. The scriptures in 1 John 5:7-8 Tells us the 3 that bear witness in the earth are the Spirit, Water, and the blood that testifies of the unity of the Spirit in heaven of the Father, Word, and Holy Spirit.

When we see a death it’s accompanied by blood. When we see the burial it’s signifies water. Likewise when we see the resurrection it signifies the Spirit. These 3 witnesses exist in the earth plain and in us. We were made from the dust of the earth. So we have those witnesses of blood, water, and Spirit in us who was made from the earth.
 

We can understand better the gospel that saves us by having these witnesses in us to testify of the unity of the Spirit in heaven. Also in the court roundabout we see these witnesses of the blood on the altar where something had to die which is death and the spirit that is given up when the death takes place. 

[Speks]

This text is typically revered by those who are KJV only and TR only. In essence we are told that the TR and KJV came about by divine preservation so it follows that this text is inspired. Following the logic of this position it can be argued that the Comma Johanneum is identical to the original words penned by the author of 1st John.

Citing Daniel Wallace on this issue is sure to aggravate more than a few onlyists, some of whom may accuse the respected scholar of concealing “the actual evidence... to further mislead the unsuspecting saints”, etc.

I’m not sure why Mr Wallace would do that such is his consistent dedication to the true preservation of God’s Word, but his argumentation can be read here:

https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8#_ftn2

https://bible.org/article/comma-johanneum-and-cyprian

In my view, for what it’s worth, there are no significant “ramifications of this in people's understanding of the Word”. Evidence for the Comma Johanneum is underwhelming. If the added text clashed badly with the balanced fullness of Scripture teaching we should be concerned, but it doesn’t.

[Always a Moon]

14 hours ago, Episcopius said:

This warning is specific to the Book of Revelation; though other warnings about adding to God's word can be found in the Old Testament - the Revelation warnings are specific to THIS BOOK.

Thanks for that! 

[Always a Moon]

7 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

It's unwise to use I John 5:7 as a proof-text of the Trinity, though, because it has such dubious provenance. But we don't need it, as there is plenty of evidence elsewhere in Scripture.

Great clarity! Thank you. 

[Always a Moon]

2 hours ago, Speks said:

In my view, for what it’s worth, there are no significant “ramifications of this in people's understanding of the Word”. Evidence for the Comma Johanneum is underwhelming. If the added text clashed badly with the balanced fullness of Scripture teaching we should be concerned, but it doesn’t.

I appreciate your opinion. 

 

Separately, would anyone care to offer some biblical references for the Trinity? The "We" in Genesis 1:26 is notable, as is the Great Commission.