Creation Etc.

[abcdef]

1 hour ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

The Bible says, "In the beginning God Created the heaven and Earth" (Genesis 1:1) and at Genesis 1:3 God says, "...let there be light", which is followed by the seven-days of "Creation" and the making of the world into which He placed Adam and Eve. But between those two verses there is the mysterious and enigmatic statement of Genesis 1:2 which says:

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
(Genesis 1:2 KJV)

 

Ok, we know that Genesis is 2500 + years old. 

We know that it was written in a time with a primitive science.

It is showing the creation explanation given by Moses.

What it is showing, is the beginnings of understanding about the revelation of Jesus.

The creator shows Himself in the creation of 6 days (Jesus human) and the 7th Sabbath as God.

------

The waters in Gen 1:2 are showing the boundary between God and the deep, the void, the darkness.

When you would look down from the throne of God, the face of the deep is what you would see.

The deep is what you see when you go outside at night and look up into the darkness.

The great void, the darkness, it is reality.

What fellowship does darkness have with light?

Well, none.

And so we see that between God and the great void of the deep, there was no fellowship of darkness with the glory of God.

But there was a place where God (love) was, and a place where God was not present, in the darkness of the void.

You would be either where God (love) was, or you would be where God was not, (void of love). No in between.

The waters are the boundary line between darkness and light.

Normally, the face of the deep would be smooth, without variance.

But the Holy Spirit moved on the face of the waters. 

When we see water with wind blowing on it, we see waves. Waves are water and air mixing and separating at the same time.

This is where the creation took place, in the place where darkness and light are mixing together and separating at the same time.

Between God's throne and the great void of darkness.

Where there is love and no love.

This is establishing the principles that run through to the Revelation.

It is not the story of science, that we should try too hard to put things in material form, 

it is the story of Jesus, good and evil, love and no love, light and dark, fullness and emptiness, joy and sorrow.

All souls, primitive and modern, can understand these things. 

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See how the things created in the following verses follow the same pattern.

Darkness and light, mixing and separating.

Air and water (firmaments) mixing and separating.

Earth and water, at the shore.

Earth and air, dust in the wind.

Fire and air, water, and earth as heat.

Mixing and separating.

Human souls have all 4 elements, but are mainly the earth element.

But it is really showing the Spiritual principles of good and evil, love and no love, as in living waters and thirst.

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Imagine looking out at the night sky. Now imagine it without any stars, suns, or any other objects.

Completely void and dark. That is the deep, the face of the deep.

That is how it began and that is how it will end.

But we will be with God in His glory, on the new earth, not in the void of eternal darkness.

 

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Ok, we know that Genesis is 2500 + years old. 

No.  The Books of the Bible were verbally conveyed before they were ever written down. 

17 minutes ago, abcdef said:

We know that it was written in a time with a primitive science.

The first five Books of the Bible, The Pentateuch, were the religious books for the nation of Israel.  It gives God's people history and the laws for the people to follow.

The rest of what you wrote is nonsense.  Sorry, that's only my opinion.  I'm just not going to waste time in fanciful prose like that.

 

[Dennis1209]

13 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

The Ruin-Reconstruction Theory (or Gap Theory as I prefer) was not the result of Protestant Minister Thomas Chalmers trying to answer the Theory of Evolution by Charles Darwin.  This is an often repeated error by Young Earth Advocates to discount the Gap Theory and Darwinism.  Anyway, the Gap Theory goes back to at least the 3rd century BC from the research I've done.  It has Jewish origins, not anti-Darwin origins.  I want to get this out of the way because it is a common attack against the origins of the Ruin-Reconstruction Theory (Gap Theory) that always crop up in these discussions.  It should also be noted that there are at least seven variations of the Gap Theory, at least that's what I read.

This is true, but I don't believe these distinctions should be dismissed.  Made from nothing and made from existing materials are important distinctions.  With respect to Adam, God breathed into him and then he became a living soul.  At some point, we should look at the term breathed as it applies to man and animals.

Interesting thoughts and conversations, I enjoy discussing everything.

In many of my views I'm not dogmatic, but weigh the preponderance of the scriptural evidence to form an opinion. I lean toward the earth being more than 6,024 years old. Drawn from memory, I recall the young earth theory as being relatively new in history [circa 18th - 19th century]. 

One of many things pertaining to the creation account I've noticed, that after the creation or making of it; God said, "that is was good". Why is it not said in Gen. 1:2, "that is was good"? If it was the actual time of the spoken creation of Earth? To me it hints of needing refashioning as chaos reigned. God is not the author of chaos. 

[teddyv]

56 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Interesting thoughts and conversations, I enjoy discussing everything.

In many of my views I'm not dogmatic, but weigh the preponderance of the scriptural evidence to form an opinion. I lean toward the earth being more than 6,024 years old. Drawn from memory, I recall the young earth theory as being relatively new in history [circa 18th - 19th century]. 

 

I don't know if one can say that the idea of a young earth is particularly a new idea, but it was more formalized by the Seventh Day Adventists - I just can't recall when that was. Certainly the young earth creationism as put forth by organizations like Answers in Genesis and Creation Ministries International are much more modern although they seem to rely on the chronology established by Ussher.

 

[Dennis1209]

6 hours ago, teddyv said:

I don't know if one can say that the idea of a young earth is particularly a new idea, but it was more formalized by the Seventh Day Adventists - I just can't recall when that was. Certainly the young earth creationism as put forth by organizations like Answers in Genesis and Creation Ministries International are much more modern although they seem to rely on the chronology established by Ussher.

 

Once again this is only my opinion. Opinions are like noses, everyone has one, except me; my nose has it own zip code. It's shadow shades a multitude. With a nose like that, it's hard to keep it out of other people's business, because it slams into their business    Now on a serious note:

I recall Ussher to be the first to manually go through that tedious task of lifespans and genealogies to come to an accurate date, and I believe he was on the mark. But as I recall, his purpose was to establish the date of the creation of our planet? That I'm in limbo about.

Early in my studies, and reading all the "begats" and genealogies; it was boring and I use to skip them over when reading the Bible from cover to cover. Along the way over time, I learned the importance of why they are accurately documented. Firstly; the Jews always require documentation and proof of their linage and tribe for priestly duties and other things. To prove they are not of mixed gentile blood and are pure. 

Secondly and most important; it accurately chronicles and records the lineage of the Messiah all the way back to the first Adam. It's needed to fulfil prophecy about his coming all the way from the first prophecy in the Bible:

Genesis 3:15 (KJV) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Answers in Genesis and Creation ministries [and I might add gotquestions.org] are awesome ministries and are not leading anyone astray. So what if we have a different view on a few secondary issues that don't involve the core tenets of our faith. If we all understood the Bible exactly the same way, what would I use my cyber ink on: LoL

[Guest]

22 hours ago, HAZARD said:

 

A Long Read, but well worth every moment of time doing so. :-)

Who knows when or what period of time, "IN THE BEGINNING" was?

  In Genesis it says, Genesis 1;1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

  It does not say, 6'000 years ago God created the heaven and the earth.

  John 1;1 also states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

  It does not say, Six thousand years ago was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, six thousand years ago?

  The next two verses also do not mention any time period or time when things were created.

  John 1: 2, The same was in the beginning with God.
   

John 1; 3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

  God and the Word, before he became flesh and dwelt among us are ETERNAL beings. Sure as God the Word had no beginning but as a Man, He had a beginning.

  John 1;14; "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

  It is interesting to note that astronomers have discovered planets about 150,000,000 light years from the Earth. This is about 14,690,062,800,000,000,000 miles from the Earth, or a distance light can travel in 150,000,000 years at a speed of 186,000 miles per second. Astronomers also say there are other universes even beyond this one. They say about 6,000,000,000 stars have been discovered and they are all suns to other planets. If this is true then the universe is beyond human conception.

  It is hard to conceive that God has existed from all eternity past as a lazy being, not doing anything until a few millennium ago, when He finally decided to do something.

  It is easier to conceive that God has been making things in all the eternal past. Jesus Himself said;

   John 5:17, "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."

And they will continue to work through eternity future, and we will be included in their work!

 

Is the universe, many parts of it that are not in rebellion, in sin against God inhabited,? I believe so because of this simple Scripture;

  Revelation 12:12, "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them . . . . . . Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." yes, his time will shortly and positively and securely cut off!

  The Bible says the heavens cannot be measured and the host of Heaven cannot be counted (Jer. 31:37 ; 33:22-25). It is also clear that the spirit world of angels, seraphims, cherubims, and other spirit beings were created before the Earth, for the "sons of God," (angels), were present and shouting when God laid the foundations of the Earth. It is also clear from this passage that God created the heavens, including the moon, the sun and stars were created before the Earth, for "the morning stars" sang together when God laid the foundations of the Earth. This would be the logical order of creation, to make theplace before creating the inhabitants to live in or on the place.

Since inhabitants were a part of the creation and not part of Creators (Col. 1:15-18), they naturally would have to be created on which they were to live. This is the way it happened on Earth in the six days of the restoration of the Earth from chaos to a second habitable state (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

  Bearing all this in mind, we either believe our God can and did create everything which included the molecules of the universe, from the basic atomic particles to the subatomic particles, and even particles we know nothing about yet in His creation we see and live in today!

  In a nutshell and put simply;

“In the beginning" [literally by periods or ages] God created the heaven, [Hebrew, heavens] and the earth, not 6000 years ago God created the Heaven and the earth.
When we speak of the six days and the creation of the present life on Earth, we can speak with Bible authority that it was about 6000 years ago. This can be seen by the lengths of the various dispensations since Adam. In no Scripture are we taught to believe that the heavens and the Earth were originally created during the six days and at the time of Adam about 6000 years ago.
Some use Exodus 20:8-11; 31:17 to try and prove that the heavens and the Earth were created in the six days of Gen. 1:3-2:25, and therefore, that they were created about 6000 years ago. However, nothing is said of the original creation of the heavens and the Earth in these passages.

In these Scriptures the Hebrew word 'ASAH,' meaning to make out of already existing material, is used instead of the word 'BARA,' to create. These verses picture the re-creation work of the six days and not the original creation "In the beginning."

'ASAH' never means to create. It is translated 'MADE,' 659 times; 'MAKE,' 449 times; 'MAKETH,' 59 times and 'MAKEST,' sixteen times; 'MAKER,' thirteen times; 'MAKING,' eleven times; and 'MADEST,' three times.
When God said, "In six days, the Lord 'MADE' heaven and Earth," he had in mind the restoration of the heaven (firmament, or clouds) the Earth to a habitable state as it was before the destruction of Lucifer’s kingdom by the flood and Gen. 1:2.

  Molecular science does not disprove the creations of God. All things were created after Lucifer’s rebellion, "After their own kind."

  Every Instance: after their kind,   AV (Gen-Rev),

Gen 1:21, And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:25, And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 6:20, Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
Gen 7:14, They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

So, if they were created after their own kind, it was after the kind that was created before!

We can either believe what God says about Himself and His creations or not? Its up to us.

  Scriptures prove beyond doubt that there were in fact two great floods on the Earth.

  Scriptures show that originally, Long before Adam and Eve were created, God created the Earth and placed Lucifer as ruler of the society there.

  God gave Lucifer control of the Earth kingdom (Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Lucifer obeyed God and ruled for an unknown time before "Iniquity was found in him. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:13-15).

Before Adam Lucifer was the ruler of the Earth.

God is taking about Lucifer in these Scriptures. He was a perfect created angelic arc angel; "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:13-15).

Lucifer wanted to control the universe and knock God off His throne. He over a long period of time convinced one third of God's angels to rebell with him and they rebelled against God and His universal rule, and invaded heaven to try and de-throne God Himself. (Ezek 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Naturally Lucifer was defeated, and his kingdom on the earth was totally destroyed by a flood and by the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1;2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6), hence the severe geological contortions of the earth's crust, vast deposits of bones in various places world wide, fossiles thousands or millions of years old etc. The earth was turned upside down in this process, ever wondered why the moon is poc marked by countless craters, and yet we never see anything plowing into it these days causing such destruction. What about the other dead planets in our immediate solar system? The flood God caused to cover the earth remained for an unknown period of time, and then God, in six days restored the earth to a habitable state and made Adam and his creation to carry out the original plan of God concerning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

Lucifer and his spirit rebels caused man to fall and by this regained dominion of the earth through Adams submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). Lucifer has been in control ever since and he will remain in control untill the second coming of Jesus Christ who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium. God will then finally make a New heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5).

This doctrin is simple for most men to understand, so they reject it. Especially the churches for some reason. I have never heard a priest or pastor talk about these things until I found a book called, “God’s Plan For Man, by Finis Jennings Dake.”

2 Peter 3:5-7 expresses this clearly in plain human language, "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing (emerging) out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world THAT THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, PERISHED:

But the heavens and the Earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

This is where people become confused and say the world "that then was," was the world before Noah's flood, but this cannot be because:

If the world that THAT THEN WAS" is that between Adam and the flood of Noah, then God created The heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW" since the flood of Noah. Noah and his family lived prior to his flood and after it. The world "THAT THEN WAS PERISHED" and everything in it also perished. What change could Noah's flood make to the heavens? None, for floods on Earth can never cover the heavens. The earth, vegetation, the heavens, all remained the same after Noah's flood.

Peter, in (2 Peter 3:3-7) taught that scoffers were totally ignorant of the flood that destroyed the social system and the earth "that then was" (lucifers flood). These scoffers all knew of Noah's flood and still know today. This proves that the truth of the flood that destroyed the original creation was hidden from them, while they knew about Noah's flood.

What was it that the scoffers were ignorant of unless it was the destruction of the social system before Adam?

This is the doctrin of which men are still ignorant of, which they call "the gap theory." Peter said that the scoffers were willingly ignorant of this truth showing that it is a clear doctrin of Scripture if men would stop being ignorant of it. There are many Scriptures that make this doctrin clear; so "If any man wants to be ignorant, let him be ignorant," as Paul expressed in (1 Cor. 14:38).

Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance. In Isa. 14:12-14 we have statements which cannot possibly of an earthly King. The passage is universally refering to the fall of Satan. We can quote it and note the facts.

"How art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which dist weaken the nations! For thou art hast said in thine heart, I WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN, I WILL EXALT MY THRONE above the stars of God: I WILL sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I WILL ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL BE like the most High," Now note the following facts this passage proves of Satan:

1. That his name is Lucifer.

2. That he was a son of the morning, and therefore, no earthly man.

3. That he fell from Heaven. This could never be spoken of a man. Satan is the only person in all Scripture who is spoken of as falling from Heaven (Luke 10:18).

4. That he was cut down to the ground in his fall.

5. That he weakened the nations on Earth.

6. That he was exalted in his heart.

7. That he invaded hHeaven where God rules.

8. That he was a KING, for he had a Throne and SUBJECTS over whom he ruled.

9. That he wanted to exalt his kingdom above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven itself to dethrone God.

10. That he wanted to be worshiped in the congregation of God (Ps. 72:2; 82:1; Isa. 6:1).

11. That he led a rebellion against God but was defeated.

12. That his kingdom was on Earth, or he never could have tried to ascend above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven. When a kingdom is located under the clouds it has to be on the Earth.

13. That the ground, clouds, stars, and Heaven were already created.

14. That it had to be before Adam, for this was not the position of Lucifer when he was in Adam's Eden. Adam had dominion at that time. Lucifer had no kingdom on the Earth at the time of Adam and he has not had one since in the sense of a visible personal rule on Earth. He has only ruled through others since Adam's day; so this must refer to a time before Adam.

15. That he was not in Heaven when he rebelled, else he could not have desired to ascend into Heaven. He was under the stars, or he could not have desired to be exalted above the stars. He was under the clouds, or he could not have desired to ascend above them.

16. That God's throne is located in the north part of the universe (Psalms 75:6-7). Thus, this passage proves the location of Satan's original kingdom and the time of his fall. It was located on Earth, and his fall was before Adam, for he was al;reday a fallen creature when he entered Adam' Eden.

In Coll. 1:15-18 we read of Christ creating thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers in Heaven and on Earth. They were located somewhere in the heavens and on the Earth. Lucifer was given a kingdom here on Earth, as proved by the passages cited above. His own subjects were earthly creatures of various kinds which were destroyed when the flood of Gen. 1:2 came upon the Earth. God created the Earth to be inhabited by earthly creatures (Isa. 45:18). They are called "nations" in the above passages. The demons who are now Satans emissaries could well be the spirits of the pre-Adamites. At any rate they are not part of the creation at the time of Adam. Thus Isaiah teaches the the Earth was inhabited before Adam and was ruled by Lucifer, whos' kingdom was overthrown when he rebelled.

There is so, so much more found in Scripture regarding this doctrin, many dozens of Scriptures support this. If this is false teaching, it amuses me that no one comes up with nothing more than Noah's flood, which occured much later, did not compleatly destroy the Earth, shake mountains, turn them upside down, turned off the stars and the sun so that there was no light. God had already created the Heavens, they were in existence as well as the Earth only their lights were withheld from shining on the Earth thus causing darkness Gen. 1:2. There was no darkness during Noah's flood? There were men and animals on the earth before Noah's flood, and Noah and his family and the animals survived the flood and were on the Eart after it?

That the Earth ONLY was (became) without form and void (Hebrew tohu vabobu, litterally wast and ruin or desolate and empty), as in Gen. 1:2. That there were mountains of Earth that were shaken and turned upside down by an earthquake so severe, which no doubt caused the remains of animals to be deposited in the very depths of the Earth beneath many layers of solid rock, such as are now been found. Noah's flood never buried animals hundreds of meters beneath solid rock.

Many other scriptures apart from those above can be presented to prove the doctrin of a pre-Adamite world.

To try and put this in a nutshell, God created the heavens first, then the Earth, all in the beginning or in the dateless past (Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7). He caused the heavens and the Earth to be inhabited and gave Lucifer control of the Earth-kingdom, don't believe me, read, (Coll. 1:15-18; Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Lucifer ruled the earth for God for an unknown period before he rebelled and invaded heaven to try and dethrone God. Not my idea, read (Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14). He was defeated and his kingdom on Earth was destroyed by a flood and the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).

The Earth was turned upside down, a process which caused all the present formations of the Earth. The flood remained on the Earth for an unknown period of time, and then God in six days restored the Earth to a habitable state and made Adam and Eve and his creation to carry out the original plan of God concerning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

Lucifer, now called Satan, and the spirit rebels caused man to fall, and they regained dominion of the earth through Adam's submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). They have been in control ever since and will be in control untill the second coming of Christ, who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium and make a New Heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth all righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5). Why does science show the earth to be many millions of years old and the Bible "(allegedly)" says it is only six thousand years old? So, as with everything missunderstood in Scripture men call what they do not understand a theory. Hence, the gap theory, or even a herecy. But there was a gap and its no theory. Scripture shows there was a creation "in the beginning" and then a re-creation.

If we take the time to carefully read all the Scriptures regarding this doctrin and not just skim over them retaining old knowledge in the mind, and the READ these below, which backs up what is said, and see for yourselves

You see, God spoke, and as soon as the materials were made, God created and formed with His hands the heavens, with all its light and darkness first, then the Earth, all in the beginning, or in the dateless past (Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7). God created the heavens and the earth to be inhabited and He gave Lucifer control of the Earth kingdom (Col. 1:15-18; Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14). Lucifer obeyed God and ruled for an unknown time before he rebelled and invaded heaven to try and de-throne (Ezek 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).

Naturally Lucifer was defeated, and his kingdom on the earth was totally destroyed by a flood and by the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1;2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6), hence the severe geological contortions of the earth's crust, vast deposits of bones in various places world wide, fossiles thousands or millions of years old etc. The earth was turned upside down in this process, ever wondered why the moon is poc marked by countless craters, and yet we never see anything plowing into it these days causing such destruction. What about the other dead planets in our immediate solar system? The flood God caused to cover the earth remained for an unknown period of time, and then God, in six days restored the earth to a habitable state and made Adam and his creation to carry out the original plan of God conserning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

Lucifer and his spirit rebels caused man to fall and by this regained dominion of the earth through Adams submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). Lucifer has been in control ever since and he will remain in control untill the second coming of Jesus Christ who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium. God will then finally make a New heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5).

This doctrin is too simple for most men to understand, so they reject it.

Now, 2 Peter 3:5-7 expresses this clearly in plain human language, "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing (emerging) out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world THAT THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, PERISHED:
But the heavens and the Earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

This is where people become confused and say the world "that then was," was the world before Noah's flood, but this cannot be because:

If the world that THAT THEN WAS" is that between Adam and the flood of Noah, then God created The heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW" since the flood of Noah. Noah and his family lived prior to his flood and after it. The world "THAT THEN WAS PERISHED" and everything in it also perished. What change could Noah's flood make to the heavens? None, for floods on Earth can never cover the heavens. The earth, vegetation, the heavens, all remained the same after Noah's flood.

Peter, in (2 Peter 3:3-7) taught that scoffers were totally ignorant of the flood that destroyed the social system and the earth "that then was" (lucifers flood). These scoffers all knew of Noah's flood and still know today. This proves that the truth of the flood that destroyed the original creation was hidden from them, while they knew about Noah's flood.

What was it that the scoffers were ignorant of unless it was the destruction of the social system before Adam?

This is the doctrin of which men are still ignorant of, which they call "the gap theory." Peter said that the scoffers were willingly ignorant of this truth showing that it is a clear doctrin of Scripture if men would stop being ignorant of it. There are many Scriptures that make this doctrin clear; so "If any man wants to be ignorant, let him be ignorant," as Paul expressed in (1 Cor. 14:38).

Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance.

 

Here’s the Scriptures that show a vast difference between the flood God hit the Earth with in His anger after Lucifers rebellion, and the flood of Noah. I will head the Scriptures L.F for Lucifers Flood, and N.F. for Noahs Flood.

 

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).
N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16). Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives and all the animals on the Arc were saved alive to start over.

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).
N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).
N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).
N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).
N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).
N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).
N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).

 

This proves the Earth was plenished before because God told Noah to go and re-plenish the earth, Genesis 9:1, ‘And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.”

 

Just as God told Adam and Eve to do when He restored the Earth to a habitable state and He created them, Genesis 1:28, “And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth”

Worth every minute of reading time.  Excellent.

[Guest]

The following link provides resources for those who really want to learn about the Gap Theory.

Source: The Genesis Gap

Steven E. Dill's book, In the Beginnings, is the one I like most I the one I've bought multiple copies of to give to family and friends.

[Dennis1209]

41 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

In these Scriptures the Hebrew word 'ASAH,' meaning to make out of already existing material, is used instead of the word 'BARA,' to create. These verses picture the re-creation work of the six days and not the original creation "In the beginning."

Great post and I agree and not to nit pick, however; could ASAH and BARA be used interchangeably??? This verse is a head scratcher for me.

Genesis 5:1 (KJV) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created [bā·rā] man, in the likeness of God made he him; [emphasis added]

1343 I. בָּרָא (bā·rā(ʾ)): v.; ≡ Str 1254; TWOT 278—1. LN 42.29–42.40 (qal) create, i.e., make something that has not been in existence before (Ge 1:1); (nif) be created (Ge 2:4); 2. LN 42.29–42.40 make, form or fashion something out of elements that exist (Ge 6:7; Isa 65:18; Jer 31:22); 3. LN 42.7–42.28 do, i.e., bring about, perform a task, with an emphasis on the uniqueness of the event (Ex 34:10; Nu 16:30; Isa 45:7); 4. LN 90.51–90.55 causes something to happen (Am 4:13); 5. LN 12.1–12.42 (qal act. ptcp.) the Creator, i.e., a title of a supernatural being (Ecc 12:1; Isa 40:28; 43:15+); 6. LN 13.67 unit: בָּרָא לְ־ ־ִי טָהוֹר לֵב (bā·rā(ʾ) l- i-y ṭā·hôr lēḇ) restore my purity, formally, make for me a pure heart, i.e., bring back to a prior state (PS 51:12[EB 10]+)

Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament) (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Great post and I agree and not to nit pick, however; could ASAH and BARA be used interchangeably??? This verse is a head scratcher for me.

Genesis 5:1 (KJV) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created [bā·rā] man, in the likeness of God made he him; [emphasis added]

1343 I. בָּרָא (bā·rā(ʾ)): v.; ≡ Str 1254; TWOT 278—1. LN 42.29–42.40 (qal) create, i.e., make something that has not been in existence before (Ge 1:1); (nif) be created (Ge 2:4); 2. LN 42.29–42.40 make, form or fashion something out of elements that exist (Ge 6:7; Isa 65:18; Jer 31:22); 3. LN 42.7–42.28 do, i.e., bring about, perform a task, with an emphasis on the uniqueness of the event (Ex 34:10; Nu 16:30; Isa 45:7); 4. LN 90.51–90.55 causes something to happen (Am 4:13); 5. LN 12.1–12.42 (qal act. ptcp.) the Creator, i.e., a title of a supernatural being (Ecc 12:1; Isa 40:28; 43:15+); 6. LN 13.67 unit: בָּרָא לְ־ ־ִי טָהוֹר לֵב (bā·rā(ʾ) l- i-y ṭā·hôr lēḇ) restore my purity, formally, make for me a pure heart, i.e., bring back to a prior state (PS 51:12[EB 10]+)

Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament) (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

God crafted man out of the earth.  Man is made from the dust of the earth and will return to dust upon his death.  But what about God's breadth into Adam?  Is man more than dust without the breadth of life that God breathed into him?  No.  Are we more than dust in the wind?  No.  If we are, it is because God has created us (both bā·rā(ʾ) and ʻâsâh) to be in fellowship with Him.

[abcdef]

22 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

No.  The Books of the Bible were verbally conveyed before they were ever written down.

Some were.

 

22 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

 

The first five Books of the Bible, The Pentateuch, were the religious books for the nation of Israel.  It gives God's people history and the laws for the people to follow.

Yes

 

22 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

The rest of what you wrote is nonsense.  Sorry, that's only my opinion.  I'm just not going to waste time in fanciful prose like that.

Well, if someone takes the position that the creation story is symbolic, then they should be able to explain it.

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I can't always answer posts quickly or extensively as they deserve to be but I try. That is why I only quoted the part of your post about the waters and what they were. 

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These things should be thought about, dwelt upon, reasoned out, and placed in the proper perspective.

You may see things differently, that is fine.

This is how we learn.

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Tell me what you believe about the darkness on the face of the deep.

I told you what I thought, that is what we call outer space.

 The dark, endless, eternal, void, of space, what you see in the night sky.

Yes/No?