Convince me of a pre-trib rapture...

[Mantis]

Ok so I attend a Calvery chapel. They teach pre-trib rapture. I am not convinced. The way I read it is at the last trump the rapture happens, after the tribulation. But then they say that Jesus comes like a thief in the night to get his church, people will be eating, drinking marrying and given I'm marriage. That doesn't't sound like tribulation times. What do you think?

[Starise]

14 minutes ago, Mantis said:

Ok so I attend a Calvery chapel. They teach pre-trib rapture. I am not convinced. The way I read it is at the last trump the rapture happens, after the tribulation. But then they say that Jesus comes like a thief in the night to get his church, people will be eating, drinking marrying and given I'm marriage. That doesn't't sound like tribulation times. What do you think?

Germans were eating and drinking and carrying on like normal at the same time they were torturing Jews during WW2. I think there will be two divisions of society. The "undesirables" will be displaced while the rest of life will go on as usual. Out of sight out of mind.

Studying the end times is probably the thickest jungle theologically I've ever been in. No fair discussion is possible without relevant scripture in context. I am not in a position to do that right this minute. I'm sure the subject has come up before. Actually I believe there is an entire part of this site devoted to post trib, pre trib, mid trib discussion.

I will say I was taught the same as you though not through Calvary Chapel. I love their radio presentations here on the EC. 

I began to read and study for myself and some of the scriptures just didn't seem to be lining up entirely for pre-trib. Don't get me wrong. If I could pick one of the three it would be pre-trib. Who wouldn't?  It would be see ya'll I'm headin' on up.  I can't say with any certainty this is true though. Not from what I read. 

Those who postulate pre-trib have mostly been taught it in seminary. One argument in favor of has been that it demoralizes Christians taking hope away from them in the end times if end trib is taught. How demoralized do you think they will be if they find out the message they were taught wasn't right.

Be like....We're going to heaven everyone!! Praise the LAWD!  Then they drag the pastor out peeing himself  and line up the rest of the congregation. Were's my "rapture"??

This isn't going down quite the way we were told.

[Mantis]

5 minutes ago, Starise said:

Germans were eating and drinking and carrying on like normal at the same time they were torturing Jews during WW2. I think there will be two divisions of society. The "undesirables" will be displaced while the rest of life will go on as usual. Out of sight out of mind.

Studying the end times is probably the thickest jungle theologically I've ever been in. No fair discussion is possible without relevant scripture in context. I am not in a position to do that right this minute. I'm sure the subject has come up before. Actually I believe there is an entire part of this site devoted to post trib, pre trib, mid trib discussion.

I will say I was taught the same as you though not through Calvary Chapel. I love their radio presentations here on the EC. 

I began to read and study for myself and some of the scriptures just didn't seem to be lining up entirely for pre-trib. Don't get me wrong. If I could pick one of the three it would be pre-trib. Who wouldn't?  It would be see ya'll I'm headin' on up.  I can't say with any certainty this is true though. Not from what I read. 

Those who postulate pre-trib have mostly been taught it in seminary. One argument in favor of has been that it demoralizes Christians taking hope away from them in the end times if end trib is taught. How demoralized do you think they will be if they find out the message they were taught wasn't right.

Be like....We're going to heaven everyone!! Praise the LAWD!  Then they drag the pastor out peeing himself  and line up the rest of the congregation. Were's my "rapture"??

This isn't going down quite the way we were told.

Yeah if I were a pastor teaching that pre-tribulation rapture as absolute truth I would be very worried. What if you were wrong?? How many people have you given false hope? I would think God would judge that and I would not want to be on his bad side.

[Starise]

9 minutes ago, Mantis said:

Yeah if I were a pastor teaching that pre-tribulation rapture as absolute truth I would be very worried. What if you were wrong?? How many people have you given false hope? I would think God would judge that and I would not want to be on his bad side.

Many if not most believe this is what will happen, so I think they are convinced. 

One common argument used in favor of pre-trib is that Christians would not be exposed to a punishment intended for those who rejected God. This is easy logic to accept, however I know of no war where Christians were insulated from war, even if it wasn't their doing. There's also a difference between punishment and suffering for Jesus. Let's just say we are protected from all punishments of the wicked, we could still be martyred.  In fact, the Bible says the AC will have temporary power to "wear out the saints".  This is a big WHY for some.  I can only offer my thoughts. It's an HONOR to die for the Lord and this will be an honor many will accept as the most powerful form of dedication to our Lord we can give. As C.S. Lewis said, "He is no fool to give up what he can't keep in exchange for what he can't loose." 

Secondly, this further implicates Satan, his angels and anyone else involved in the process. " He who kills with the sword will be killed with the sword". Satan can't say, " I made sure to keep your people safe". No, Instead he will say, I killed as many of them as I could. He will be forever held accountable for murdering the saints of the most high. God let the devil "play into" the crucifixion and he will "play into" this scenario as well. No excuse for the beast or the harlot. None at all. 

I want to see the collective gasp and look on all of their faces when God shows up in the clouds. Right before they are all incinerated on the battle field. Our King!

 

[WayneS]

Here are several excerpts from "The End Times in Chronological Order" by Ron Rhodes. This is his rationale for pre-tribulation.  (I checked the legal and small quotes can be copied).

It would be worthwhile to get the book.  He also draws conclusions that the church is not substitute for Israel (replacement theology).

• In Revelation 3:10 Jesus promises the church in Philadelphia, “I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.” Notice the definite article (the) before the word hour in this verse.
• In keeping with the idea that the church will be raptured before this time of tribulation begins, no Old Testament passage on the tribulation mentions the church (Deuteronomy 4:29-30; Jeremiah 30:4-11; Daniel 8:24-27; 12:1-2). Likewise, no New Testament passage on the tribulation mentions the church (Matthew 13:30,39-42,48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 5:4-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-11; Revelation 4–18). The church’s complete absence would seem to indicate that it is not on earth during the tribulation.
   
• Scripture assures us that the church is not appointed to wrath (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9). This means the church cannot go through the great day of wrath—the tribulation period (Revelation 6:17; 14:10,19; 15:1,7; 16:1). First Thessalonians 1:9 explicitly states that Jesus “delivers us from the wrath to come.”
• Throughout Scripture, God protects His people before judgment falls (see 2 Peter 2:5-9). Enoch was transferred to heaven before the judgment of the flood. Noah and his family were in the ark before the floodgates were opened. Lot was taken out of Sodom before judgment was poured out on Sodom and Gomorrah. The firstborn among the Hebrews in Egypt were sheltered by the blood of the Paschal lamb before judgment fell. The spies were safely out of Jericho and Rahab was secured before judgment fell on Jericho. So too will the church be secured safely (by means of the rapture) before judgment falls in the tribulation period.

With any future prophecy, I always keep an open mind.  I don’t commit to one or the other as it is the future via prophetic scripture (hard to understand), but I do find it interesting to read for the sake of understanding that God has a plan for us.

 

[JohnD]

You mean the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:20)?

Or the believer's tribulation (Revelation 13:7-18)?

[Starise]

11 minutes ago, WayneS said:

With any future prophecy, I always keep an open mind.  I don’t commit to one or the other as it is the future via prophetic scripture (hard to understand), but I do find it interesting to read for the sake of understanding that God has a plan for us.

 

This is me too ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Much of the discrepancies are tied to when people think things will happen, or if they are convinced it already happened in another context. Which groups of people are being referred to. The nature of the time lines and how they tie into our narrative of the world at large. Some people have predicted and gotten things really wrong. 

I do think God insulates us from any punishment intended for the wicked. The catch though is things can happen before the tribulation that are bad, even "if" people think they will be raptured. I run from anyone who is over confident they have it all figured out.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if God decided to do some things we never expected to happen. Throw a wrench into it so to speak. Who would have predicted He would open up the Red Sea for the Israelites to cross? 

I think we CAN know when things are close. We are told to watch, to be ready. If it doesn't happen in our lifetimes, we were still ready. If it does happen. We are ready. Probably the most foolish thing to do is to think it either all happened or it won't ever happen in our lifetime. JMO.

[Amigo42]

4 hours ago, Mantis said:

Ok so I attend a Calvery chapel. They teach pre-trib rapture. I am not convinced. The way I read it is at the last trump the rapture happens, after the tribulation. But then they say that Jesus comes like a thief in the night to get his church, people will be eating, drinking marrying and given I'm marriage. That doesn't't sound like tribulation times. What do you think?

The Bible indeed does not say anything about people being taken prior to a tribulation.  The teaching is a stretch of interpretation and don't have a real theological foundation.  

[JohnD]

The thing that confuses folks about the one rapture (I specify one rapture because some camps even try to teach there will be more than one rapture)... is there are two tribulations in the 70th Week of Daniel... the believer's tribulation in the first 3.5 years (Revelation 13:7-18) and the great tribulation in the second half (3.5 years) referred to in Matthew 24:20.

The 70th Week of Daniel is divided in two (approximately three and a half years each) in several ways in scripture:

1260 Days (Revelation 11:3 / Revelation 12:6)

42 months (Revelation 11:2 / Revelation 13:5)

time, times, and half a time* (Daniel 7:25 / Daniel 12:7 / Revelation 12:14)

* time = 1 year times = 2 years half a time = half a year

The one rapture will take place pre-great tribulation, mid-70th Week of Daniel †, post-believer's tribulation

† this is not traditional mid-trib (which believes in one 7-year tribulation) 

The believer's tribulation is the devil's war against God (specifically the saints).

The Great Tribulation is God's wrath on the devil and his followers (which he will not mete out on

his people the saints for our judgment from God took place on the cross of Christ).

 

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by JohnD

[JohnD]

Daniel 12:11 (AV)
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Taken verbatim, the Temple sacrifice will be abated 1290 days from the end of time. 

This is also the end of the 70th Week of Daniel.

This also means when Jesus will return with extreme prejudice... the Mount of Olives will split in two apparently triggering a chain reaction through the mountain range that causes the valley of Meggido to compress crushing the 200 million man armies staged there prepping to invade Jerusalem. 

Verse 11 counts down from the end (right side of the chart) verse 12 counts from the left side of the chart (linear).