The Hebrew Y'shua Vs The Greek Jesus

[Alive]

There was an exchange in this thread that I had to hide...the personal attack was about as bad as I have seen. Please behave in love and stick to deebating the subject at hand and not the person. Be nice.

[Completed Israelite]

5 hours ago, TheBlade said:

Thanks for sharing. Its not something new Yeshua, Yashua,Y'shua, Jesus.. so forth so on. No offense to ""Judaism" is wrong(messiah corrected where) just as in "christanity" is wrong". Thats your personal opinion..those that have differed for hundreds if not thousands of years..some of them knew they were right. 

Christ Jesus is still on the throne.. only way to the Father.. and He is REAL! Meaning.. He talks. One would think He has the best answers.. I am no one..

Yes what I mean by if "something is wrong" is if it's doctrine is outside of the scriptures, and was simply saying both groups have went down that road. Repeatedly all thru history actually. 

And amen to your words about Messiah brother, Halleluyah!

[Completed Israelite]

2 minutes ago, Drafido said:

I don't understand what the purpose of this thread is about.  If you are concerned with the spelling of Jesus' name then I hardly see how that matters.  God knows English and every other language.  Otherwise, it wouldn't be a very omniscient Being.

It's nothing about the name, it's About His Words, from Hebrew manuscripts compared to Greek manuscripts. Which I'll eventually throw in a much better full presentation for everybody with historical context as well. 

[Alive]

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God Bless

[GandalfTheWise]

As far as I can tell, this is what is being referenced as the authority on at least part of this thread.

Here's a link to an article by George Howard about this.  https://bfainternational.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Howard-updated-1998-explanation-1.pdf    It is included in a brief article https://bfainternational.com/hebrew-gospel-matthew/ discussing it.     I skimmed through these articles and here is a summary of what I found.

I strongly emphasize that George Howard himself says "I conjecture that a Shem-Tob type text of Matthew goes back to an early period of the Christian era."  (I added the underline to emphasize it.)  He is NOT making any type of claim that this manuscript tradition is superior to the Greek one NOR that this tradition was the basis for the Greek one.  He looks at the doctrinal peculiarities in it to attempt to figure out what groups might have produced it or used it.

As far as I can tell, here is what he is saying versus what he is not saying.

He is saying that some existing Hebrew manuscripts of Matthew (in particular The Shem-Tob one) appear to have descended from an early manuscript tradition.  It is not a perfect copy of such an original, but likely contains sections that reflect the original form as well as sections from later works.  There is a good possibility that some parts of this manuscript come from a Hebrew text of Matthew that existed early on.  He attempted to date it by looking at variations between it and the Greek text that produced doctrinal differences and comparing those things to beliefs of various early groups.  He was unable to date it any more precisely than somewhere in the first to fourth centuries of the church.

He is saying that there is evidence that suggests that this manuscript tradition was Hebrew in origin and not a translation.  This does not mean there was no Greek influence or that this was written first, but rather that the original author was not merely translating Greek.   He presents NO evidence NOR suggests at all that the Greek Matthew tradition came from this one.

He is NOT saying that this manuscript tradition is canonical nor that it was accepted by Christians as a whole nor that it was a basis for the Greek text of Matthew.  Here is the final part of his summary:

"I further suggest that this form of the Gospel of Matthew was produced by a Jewish Christian or a Jewish Christian group that was all but forgotten in early times. This person/group maintained strict observance of the law, believed that the righteous among the Gentiles would be saved in the age to come, observed only the baptism of John, elevated John the Baptist to an exalted position, and may have believed that Jesus became the Messiah sometime during his career."

In other words, his best guess is that this was a work produced by someone outside the mainstream of many Christians and churches.   In other words, it might have been something that would have found favor with groups such as those early Jewish Christians that said that the gentile believers had to adhere to the law of Moses.

My initial reaction is to put this into a similar category with works by early Christians such as the Didache or Shepherd of Hermes which were read by many Christians but not given the status of canon.  I'd be hesitant to consider unique sections of the Hebrew Matthew to be canonical.

One thing to be aware of is this.  The Jehovah's Witnesses have strong doctrinal reasons for wanting the Hebrew text of Matthew to be the original one with the Greek one being a corrupted version.  My sense of things is that some articles written about the Hebrew text of Matthew draw from JW writings on the topic.  I'm not saying this about George Howard, but rather that his work seems to be taken by some as revealing a lost truth of NT origins rather than a conjectural scholarly exercise (which is what it seems to be). 

 

[NotAllThere]

35 minutes ago, Drafido said:

So would you like to explain now what your post is originally about or will it have to wait for an indefinite amount of time?

I couldn't see the point either. 
 

Most of what the OP said provoked in me a "yes - I already know that" or a "what are you wittering on about?" response.

[Completed Israelite]

On 11/19/2020 at 12:53 PM, Drafido said:

So would you like to explain now what your post is originally about or will it have to wait for an indefinite amount of time?

All the pure negativity and hate a lot of times just knocks the wind out of a person's sails, notice that phrase I just said it's called a idiom.

Theres also tons of Hebrew idioms in the New Testament, I was wanting to share the meaning of many of these idioms that can't be understood once translated to another language, and many of the differences from Yeshua's words from Hebrew witness manuscripts, compared to the Greek manuscripts  and English translations. Sometimes 1 brushstroke in hebrew creates a single different word, and its amazing what one word can do alot of times, to the point I wanted to share it with all you folks. 

"The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light."

there's a reason why verses like the one above people don't Cant understand what in the world that means. Its because its a jewish idiom, shedding light on all these instances and differences in words, could help people who want to learn, into some much more rich understanding of the teachings of Messiah. 

 

I think 2 people was normal and wanted to hear what else was I had to say, everyone else was just drawing Thier guns...but I realise most of the Christains don't follow what the Messiah taught anyway. Its a religion made up by "church fathers" so I might as well be talking to Muslims who thinks I'm a Jew. Or Jews who think I'm Christain... Hate without cause and ears that are automatically closed. Chip on the shoulder.(another idiom, that won't translate to other languages.) 

 I'm not mad at you all for being the way you are, I mean you've been pretty much raised in a doctrine that tells it's people "they are the very elect" so its impossible  for a protestant to be deceived...... ... ... 

might as well everyone just go on in there "Trumps gonna win still" mindsets. (Another difference in the Jewish mindset, we believe Gods always in control, and Satan is NOT at war with God, just man., Christains say Trump is Gods choice, I say he definitely was,and if he still wins then is.. because everything that happens is Gods choice, it's never like the devil get 2 points over on God..haha NEVER.)

I'm done with this thread. 

I was wanting for all of us to study together, not debate and argue, and have strange attitudes toward one another. 

Edited November 29, 2020 by Completed Israelite