How do I deal with pro choice people?

[Justin Adams]

45 minutes ago, LittleMan123 said:

I made a similar point on a feminist thread once (by the way, I was later banned) and one said, 'You're free to believe in whatever God you like, but you don't have the right to tell women what to do with their bodies. So shove your God up your a#$.' Then another one replied to that member with a clapping emoji.

The argument against that is that the baby is NOT a part of the woman. It is separate with its OWN DNA etc. That is a very poor argument that the choicers use. As a separate and DISTINCT human being, the baby has a right to be protected.

[Billiards Ball]

On 12/4/2020 at 10:57 PM, LittleMan123 said:

My experience has taught me that trying to discuss with them is like talking to a wall. Is there anything I could try telling them? Or is it not worth bothering?
 

"I know you'd never assent to infanticide, and you simply feel, honestly, sincerely, that if an abortion is done early, it's not yet a child/baby. When do you think abortion is safe and not harming a child?"

[Receive answer]

"I think life begins at conception, because . . . [brief] . . . [share the gospel of Jesus]"

[JohnD]

On 12/4/2020 at 9:57 PM, LittleMan123 said:

My experience has taught me that trying to discuss with them is like talking to a wall. Is there anything I could try telling them? Or is it not worth bothering?
 

I say be prepared to stand up to them when the subject comes up.

Stalking them, protests, blocking clinics... all been done before.

For whatever the reason, abortion is the taking of an innocent life.

Period.

It is not a choice for the one who stands to lose the most: the baby.

IF it's truly "my body / my choice" THEN the only true choice one 

has is whether or not to risk pregnancy by having sex.

Period.

Rape / incest notwithstanding IMHO. ← there are testimonials of people

whose mothers were raped who would argue with even this exception.

Also,every unwanted pregnancy could be dubbed a rape or incest pregnancy 

to terminate the pregnancy and the baby.

Human life begins at conception. The Roe v Wade decision relied on the

limitations of the science and political demands of the extreme left / humanists / atheists

of the day citing better science may eventually overturn Roe v Wade.

We have better science, the embyo / fetus  is not a blob

the politics however is worse.

The ultimate question to ask a woman about her choice is would you murder your own children of any age

for your personal convenience?

[Tristen]

Hi LittleM,

If they are prepared to continue the conversation, it's worth keeping the dialogue open. Who knows what God is doing in their heart?

I would advise you to endeavour to keep the conversation safe for them. That is, don't become emotional or combative. It's not a competition where someone wins a prize at the end. At the same time, you have to hold them rationally accountable for their arguments.

I've noticed that many pro-abortionists do not even comprehend our perspective. That is, they do not understand that we see the unborn child as a human life, and therefore of equal moral value as any other human life. It's often helpful to get that point across early - to weed out some of the more specious arguments. For example, if they ask whether 'abortion' is OK in the instance of rape, we ask, 'Would it be OK to kill a newborn or toddler because their father was a rapist?'. Until they understand that aspect of our perspective, we are not on the same page - and are very likely having different conversations.

Also be aware that some people have participated in 'abortions'. So coming to terms with the fact that they murdered their own child can be very emotionally confronting. So we need to advance the conversation with grace and humility. The goal is not to be right at-all-cost - but to help them understand our position so they can give it proper consideration.

 

[AnOrangeCat]

Every person is different, so there's not a clear universal argument you can use. Most of them have already made up their minds. But if you feel compelled to try, Google "babies learn in the womb" sometime. You'll see some articles about studies that indicate babies have enough brain power even in that stage of development to learn. Surely they can also feel pain as well.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, AnOrangeCat said:

Every person is different, so there's not a clear universal argument you can use. Most of them have already made up their minds. But if you feel compelled to try, Google "babies learn in the womb" sometime. You'll see some articles about studies that indicate babies have enough brain power even in that stage of development to learn. Surely they can also feel pain as well.

Source: The Science of Fetal Pain

Unborn babies can feel pain by 20 weeks gestation or earlier

• The old, uninformed notions that unborn and newborn babies cannot feel pain are refuted by a growing body of scientific evidence. The published scientific literature shows that unborn babies can experience pain at 20 weeks gestational age (20 weeks LMP, since Last Menstrual Period, the fetal age estimate used by most obstetricians) or earlier. Two common methods are used to measure the age of an unborn baby: Probable post-fertilization age (PPF, used by embryologists) measures the age of the unborn baby from the actual date of conception, while gestational age measures from the first day of the mother’s last menstrual period (LMP, approx. two weeks before conception). Medical practitioners have been using the latter method as standard medical practice for decades, and for the purpose of this paper ages refer to gestational age unless otherwise indicated.
• A comprehensive review of the scientific literature[1] including neural development, psychology of pain sensation, and moral implications of fetal pain, concludes that unborn babies may experience pain as early as 12 weeks.
  The review notes that neural connections from periphery to brain are functionally complete after 18 weeks.
  “Nevertheless, we no longer view fetal pain (as a core, immediate, sensation) in a gestational window of 12–24 weeks as impossible based on the neuroscience.”
  The review points out that a fetus may not experience pain in the same way as an adult, but does indeed experience pain as a real sensation, and that this pain experience has moral implications.
  Significant because this unbiased review of the scientific evidence and agreement on existence of fetal pain, as early as 12 weeks and certainly after 18 weeks, comes from two highly credentialed medical professionals, one pro-choice.
  “The two authors came together to write this paper through a shared sense that the neuroscientific data, especially more recent data, could not support a categorical rejection of fetal pain.”
• Embryological development shows presence of pain sensory mechanisms and neurophysiology. The basic anatomical organization of the human nervous system is established by 6 weeks.[2] The earliest neurons in the cortical brain (the part responsible for thinking, memory, and other higher functions) are established starting at 6 weeks.[3] Nerve synapses for spinal reflex are in place by 10 weeks.[4] Sensory receptors for pain (nociception) develop first around the mouth at 7 weeks , and are present throughout the skin and mucosal surfaces by 20 weeks.[5] Connections between the spinal cord and the thalamus (which functions in pain perception in fetuses as well as in adults[6]) are relatively complete by 20 weeks.[7]
• Contradicting the claim that the brain cortex is necessary to experience pain and suffering, decordate individuals as well as animals lacking higher cortical structures obviously do feel pain. In fact, the human brain cortex does not fully mature until approximately 25 years of age, yet infants, children, and teenagers obviously can experience pain.[8]
• Fetal reactions provide evidence of pain response. The unborn baby reacts to noxious stimuli with avoidance reactions and stress responses. As early as 8 weeks the baby exhibits reflex movement during invasive procedures.[9] There is extensive evidence of a hormonal stress response by unborn babies as early as 18 weeks [10] including “increases in cortisol, beta-endorphin, and decreases in the pulsatility index of the fetal middle cerebral artery.”[11]  Two independent studies in 2006 used brain scans of the sensory part of unborn babies’ brains, showing response to pain.[12]  They found a “clear cortical response” and concluded there was “the potential for both higher-level pain processing and pain-induced plasticity in the human brain from a very early age.”
• Ruth Grunau, a pediatric psychologist at the University of British Columbia, said, “We would seem to be holding an extraordinary standard if we didn’t infer pain from all those measures.”[13]
• Brain responses & connections. In 2013 a study used functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to study the brains of healthy human babies still within the womb, from 24-39 weeks . They found that functional neuronal connections sufficient to experience pain already exist by 24 weeks .[14]
• Increased sensitivity to pain. In 2010 one group noted that “the earlier infants are delivered, the stronger their response to pain.”[15] This increased sensitivity is due to the fact that the neural mechanisms that inhibit pain sensations do not begin to develop until 34-36 weeks , and are not complete until a significant time after birth.[16] This means that unborn, as well as newborn and preterm, infants show “hyperresponsiveness” to pain.[17] Authors of a 2015 study used the fMRI technique to measure pain response in newborns (1-6 days old) vs. adults (23-36 years old), and found that “the infant pain experience closely resembles that seen in adults.” [18] Babies had 18 out of 20 brain regions respond like adults, yet they showed much greater sensitivity to pain, responding at a level four times as sensitive as adults.

Unborn babies are treated as patients by fetal surgeons, and receive pain medication

• Fetal surgeons recognize unborn babies as patients. A leading children’s hospital performed nearly 1,600 fetal surgeries between 1995 and June 2017.[19] Perinatal medicine now treats unborn babies as young as 18 weeks for dozens of conditions. Pain medication for unborn patients is routinely administered as standard medical practice.^[20]
• One of the premier fetal surgeons makes the obvious point: “Fetal therapy is the logical culmination of progress in fetal diagnosis. In other words, the fetus is now a patient.”[21]
• A European fetal surgery team states: “The administration of anesthesia directly to the fetus is critical in open fetal surgery procedures.”[22]
• The leading textbook on clinical anesthesia says: “It is clear that the fetus is capable of mounting a physiochemical stress response to noxious stimuli as early as 18 weeks.”[23]
• A recent review of the evidence concludes that from the 15^th week of gestation onward, “the fetus is extremely sensitive to painful stimuli, and that this fact should be taken into account when performing invasive medical procedures on the fetus. It is necessary to apply adequate analgesia to prevent the suffering of the fetus.”[24]
• A prenatal surgery group that has performed many fetal surgeries informs the mother before the surgery:[25] “You will be given general anesthesia, and that anesthesia will put your baby to sleep as well. In addition, during the prenatal surgery, your unborn baby will be given an injection of pain medication and medication to ensure that the baby doesn’t move.”

[1] Derbyshire SWG and Bockmann JC, Reconsidering fetal pain, J Med Ethics 46, 3-6, 2020

[2] Carlson BM, Patten’s Foundations of Embryology, Sixth Edition, McGraw-Hill, Inc., New York; 1996; Nikolopoulou E et al., Neural tube closure: cellular, molecular and biomechanical mechanisms, Development 144, 552, 2017.

[3] Bystron I et al., The first neurons of the human cerebral cortex, Nature Neuroscience 9, 880, 2006.

[4] Okado N et al., Synaptogenesis in the cervical cord of the human embryo: Sequence of synapse formation in a spinal reflex pathway, J. Comparative Neurol. 184, 491, 1979; Okado N, Onset of synapse formation in the human spinal cord, J. Comparative Neurol. 201, 211, 1981.

[5] Brusseau R, Developmental Perspectives: Is the Fetus Conscious?, International Anesthesiology Clinics 46, 11, 2008; Lowery CL et al., Neurodevelopmental Changes of Fetal Pain, Seminars in Perinatology 31, 275, 2007.

[6] Chien JH et al., Human Thalamic Somatosensory Nucleus (Ventral Caudal, Vc) as a Locus for Stimulation by INPUTS from Tactile, Noxious and Thermal Sensors on an Active Prosthesis. Sensors (Basel). 17, 2017

[7] Van de Velde M and De Buck F, Fetal and Maternal Analgesia/Anesthesia for Fetal Procedures, Fetal Diagnosis and Therapy 31, 201, 2012; Van Scheltema PNA et al., Fetal Pain, Fetal and Maternal Medicine Review 19, 311, 2008.

[8] Arain M et al., Maturation of the adolescent brain, Neuropsychiatr Dis Treat. 9, 449, 2013

[9] Ohashi Y et al., Success rate and challenges of fetal anesthesia for ultrasound guided fetal intervention by maternal opioid and benzodiazepine administration, J Maternal-Fetal Neonatal Medicine 26, 158, 2013.

[10] Myers LB et al., Fetal endoscopic surgery: indications and anaesthetic management, Best Pract Res Clin Anaesthesiol 18, 231, 2004; Brusseau R and Mizrahi-Arnaud A, Fetal Anesthesia and Pain Management for Intrauterine Therapy, Clinics in Perinatology 40, 429, 2013.

[11] Lin EE and Tran KM, Anesthesia for fetal surgery, Seminars in Pediatric Surgery 22, 50, 2013.

[12] Slater R et al., Cortical Pain Response in Human Infants, J Neuroscience 25, 3662, 2006; Bartocci M et al., Pain Activates Cortical Areas in the Preterm Newborn Brain, Pain 122, 109, 2006.

[13] Qiu J, Does it hurt?, Nature 444, 143, 2006.

[14]Thomason ME et al., Cross-Hemispheric Functional Connectivity in the Human Fetal Brain, Sci Transl Med 5, 173ra24, 2013.

[15] Badr LK et al., Determinants of Premature Infant Pain Responses to Heel Sticks, Pediatric Nursing 36, 129, 2010.

[16] Brusseau R and Bulich LA, Anesthesia for fetal intervention, in Essential Clinical Anesthesia, Charles Vacanti, Pankaj Sikka, Richard Urman, Mark Dershwitz, B. Scott Segal, Eds., Cambridge University Press, NY; July 2011; 772-776.

[17] Greco C and Khojasteh S, Pediatric, Infant and Fetal Pain, Case Studies in Pain Management, Alan David Kaye and Rinoo V. Shah, Eds., (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2014), 379.

[18] Goksan S et al., fMRI reveals neural activity overlap between adult and infant pain, eLife 4:e06356, 2015.

[19] “Volumes and Outcomes: Fetal Anomalies,” Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, 2017, http://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/center-fetal-diagnosis-and-treatment/volumes-outcomes#.VLbMhCvF8T-. See also, “Fetal Family Reunion,” Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, 2017, http://www.chop.edu/events/fetal-family-reunion.

[20] See, e.g., Ramirez MV, Anesthesia for fetal surgery, Colombian Journal of Anesthesiology 40, 268, 2012; Tran KM, Anesthesia for fetal surgery, Seminars in Fetal & Neonatal Medicine 15, 40, 2010; Schwarz U and Galinkin JL, Anesthesia for fetal surgery, Semin Pediatr Surg 12, 196, 2003; Anand KJS and Hickey PR, Pain and Its Effects in the Human Neonate and Fetus, N Engl J Med 317, 132, 1987.

[21] Adzick NS, Prospects for fetal surgery, Early Human Development 89, 881, 2013.

[22] Mayorga-Buiza MJ et al., Management of fetal pain during invasive fetal procedures. Lessons learned from a sentinel event, European Journal of Anaesthesiology 31, 88, 2014.

[23] Brusseau R and Bulich LA, Anesthesia for fetal intervention, in Essential Clinical Anesthesia, Charles Vacanti, Pankaj Sikka, Richard Urman, Mark Dershwitz, B. Scott Segal, Eds., Cambridge University Press, NY; July 2011; 772-776.

[24] Sekulic S et al., Appearance of fetal pain could be associated with maturation of the mesodiencephalic structures. J Pain Res. 9, 1031, 2016

[25] Adzick NS et al., A Randomized Trial of Prenatal versus Postnatal Repair of Myelomeningocele, N Engl J Med 364, 993, 2011 (from the Informed Consent section of the supplementary Protocol to the paper).

[Billiards Ball]

How did we get so beaten down that we forgot:

1) Affirm that all lives are godly gifts

2) Use our pro life stance to topic switch to the saving gospel of Jesus Christ, for example, did you know Jesus died for not just unborn children, but for you and I . . . 

[Riverwalker]

You have to get them to see that , that is a baby, not on inconvenient mass of disposable cells. If the baby is recognized as a human being, then abortion becomes murder, alkl because people won't keep their pants zipped, or even use protection

[JohnR7]

On 12/5/2020 at 2:09 AM, DDisconnect said:

They do make certain points, like what becomes of the child once they live. They potentially grow up in an unloving/neglectful home or become wards of the state, and the rate of orphans vs adoptions is... Abysmal, truly.

Yes God can cause good to come out of all of that. Life is always the right choice. "I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, so that you and your descendants may live",  (deut 30:19) 

[QuantumGod]

I have had conversations with pro-abortionists in the past. I used the Bible to make my argument for me. What I said was this: "The Bible says God hates hands that shed innocent blood. What is more innocent than an unborn child?" This quite literally stopped them in their proverbial tracks. They were flabbergasted and did not know what to say. When dealing with ungodly people who are extremely dogmatic, it is best to refer to the Bible or simply quote scripture and move on, just like Jesus did with the Devil, and Michael the Archangel also did when confronted by Satan over Moses' body. Let the living Word of God do the arguing for you.