why do Islamists hate the west?

[fenwar]

Thanks for your reply Ted,

Just to clarify I don't disagree that we need to deal with radical Muslims who are actively stirring up hatred or condoning acts of terror; I agree with the legal steps being taken to deal with these people. I also agree that action should be taken to find and eliminate terrorist cells and training camps.

What I disagree with is any kind of action against Muslims in general just because they are Muslims.

Hope that makes things clear

Fenwar

[Guest shiloh357]

What I disagree with is any kind of action against Muslims in general just because they are Muslims.

Which no one here has, heretfore, suggested.

[ted]

Thanks for your reply Ted, 

 

Just to clarify I don't disagree that we need to deal with radical Muslims who are actively stirring up hatred or condoning acts of terror; I agree with the legal steps being taken to deal with these people. I also agree that action should be taken to find and eliminate terrorist cells and training camps. 

 

What I disagree with is any kind of action against Muslims in general just because they are Muslims. 

 

Hope that makes things clear   

 

Fenwar

And thank you for yours, as well!

You know, many times we seem to lump each other (not us- as in you and I, but us- as in many here on the board) into one small box. For example: If one is in agreement with the intent of the War on Terror, that must mean we are confused and blood thirsty Muslim-haters. On the other side, others will lump all not in agreement in the category of anti-American, liberal hippies with no sense of reality.

When we look a little deeper, we can see that most of us on either side of the issues have many good arguments, both for and against.

War is bad. In some cases, not going to war can be worse. In this day in age, I think it would be worse not to go to war against the threat we face.

It's not that I like it, mind you. It takes me away from my family, causes a bunch of worry, keeps me from watching every year of my son's growth, and really just becomes a pain in the butt.

But it is something that needs to be done right now, and it's something I'm willing to do.

Nobody (at least nobody that I call a friend) is advocating the destruction of a certain people. That is what Hitler did, as well as many others. These are sick people that came to power and used that power to fulfill their twisted visions.

Contrary to what we hear in the news every night, our leaders, as well as our military members, are not like that.

Sorry, but I've been with this military for over 15 years now, and it's not like what we are being told in the news. There are, however, some that are not stable in their ways, and abuse the trust given to them. There are military commanders that go beyond the trust given to them, and fail.

Do a Google on the recently relieved Army TRADOC (Training and Doctrine Command) Commander, and you can see an example of what I mean. He was recently relieved for....well....bad things.

So yes, there are some within the ranks that bring shame to our uniform.

But, I challenge anyone to find a nation that expects more from their military, and holds it to a higher standard than the US. For every mosque that is wiped out, there are hundreds that stand today because someone had the sense to hold their fire. For every civilian casualty, there are thousands that are alive today because we have the discipline to aim first, identify the target, and then shoot, not the other way around. I don't think that people have a very good grasp of what kind of restraint an American military member has when in conflict, and that lack of knowledge can lead to sweeping stories of condemnation. It would make our jobs so much easier to just go in and wipe out all that moves in a danger area. That way, we could be sure we took care of the threat. But we don't do that. Well, maybe someone could erroneously apply that theory to when we dropped the bombs on Japan, but that's not why we dropped them.

It's hard to kill. If anyone thinks it's easy, they can come along with me when I next get called up. It's very serious stuff. Stuff that can follow you for the rest of your life. So, I don't put much stock in someone's conviction when they say "kill 'em all!" To me, it's just someone talking. The truth is, it kinda sucks (pardon the language )

All of this goes through our minds when we go in, so we have to be sure when we do that we are aiming at exactly what we want to hit. In addition to the mental factor, we also have legal stuff to worry about if we mess up. Even if we don't mess up, we could still be subject to legal troubles. Just ask that Marine in the sweep of Fallujah last year, the one that was all over the news for 6 months for no reason. BTW- if no one has noticed yet, it's always the little guy that pays for this stuff, not the high ranking ones.

I can't think of one other nation that conforms more to the letter and intent of the Geneva conventions than we do. Yes, there were some people that did not follow the laws, and in very few instances, there were some who did just the opposite of what we are to do. The stories are then posted forever on the news, and from that, people get the impression that the entire war is fought that way. Our trouble is, that many news organizations will play on emotion that to sell papers or advertising slots on tv. What they are not showing are the thousands of incidents were American military men and women are playing by the rules.

Why? Well, who really knows? Maybe they think it's not enough to draw viewers. Maybe they don't think Pepsi or Honda will pay to advertise on a show that doesn't spark an interest. I can't really guess, to tell you the truth. Maybe I'm strange, but I actually like the stories of Granny doing something cool at the end of the news show. I like the human interest stories buried on page 11 of the paper. To me, they are more encouraging in life than yet another murder/ suicide or a house fire somewhere.

Anyway, when we lump each other into these blind categories, we sell each other short by not understanding the entirety of a story. There is always more to the story.

There is more to it than what Bush is saying, and there is more to it all than what the terrorists are saying. Simple as that.

We just have to decide if it's all worth it, that's all.

My answer, in this case, is yes. It's worth it for me to try and stop them before they become an unmanageable plague within our own borders. Some feel that we are getting what we deserve, but I think not.

Anyway, may the Lord be with you, and may He show us all a way out of this soon.

In Him,

t.

[Gerioke]

Thanks for your reply Ted,

[ted]

It's honest, alright. It may not totally explain in detail every aspect of every human conflict, but it's an honest account.

BTW- I said in there, basically, that no one is more careful in warfare than the US, but there are many nations that strive to do what is right, as well.

It's not just the US, but I do know that this stuff is drilled into our heads from day one. The good thing is, no one really has to think about it in the first place. The military frowns upon reckless abandon when it comes to warfare. In fact, it's just not tolerated much at all. We want thinkers out there. Ones that will do the right things at the right times.

The only reason we go over it so much is that there are times that things get hectic and we want our military people to have this in the front of their minds when there is little time to think, due to circumstances. It needs to be a reaction, not something someone has to stop and think about.

But, in no way am I implying that the US is the only country that strives to do the right thing. Most nations, with any sense of dignity, wouldn't have it any other way.

t.

[Eadora]

Double

[Eadora]

Friends:

Quote Shiloh 357

The claim that they inhabited the Land for generations is a myth, and is unsupported by genuine history.

And

There was no Palestinian people living for generations as so many history revisionists claim.

And

No Arabs were displaced, since the Land being settled was uninhabited.

And

Palestine was under the rule of the Turkish Ottoman Empire.

That does not mean that there was no entity Palestine. It only means that they were occupied. Like now. The Turks recognized it as an entiy.

I believe it was Golda Meir who first played the Denial Card.

Well that is one way to deal with the problem.

Palestinians?? What Palestinians???

To put it as kindly as I can. You are woefully ill informed!!

The fact is that the majority of people living in what was known as Palestine and what is now known as Israel, The West Bank, Gaza & Jordan have probably been Arabs for the last 2000 years. I believe they are even now a majority, at least in the Gaza the West Bank and Jordan; which causes a few demographic problems for the state of Israel.

Repeat the Majority of people living there since the Roman caused Diaspora, some 2000 years ago have been Arabs. The same ethnic group that now claims the nationality Palestinian. The land has been controlled by Turks Greeks eygptians Etc Etc. but the majortiy of the people have been ??????? what.

Quote Shiloh

The "Palestinians" are actually the descendents of the those migrant workers

If You believe that present day Palestinians are simply the descendents of migrant farm works you believe a LIE. I beg you to become informed.

Amor's article clearly shows that no definitive data as to exact numbers exist but at the same time History clearly shows that people lived there.

A quick time line.

-------------------------

A.D.

70

Destruction of the Second Temple by Roman Emperor Titus.

132-135

Bar Kokhba revolt suppressed. Jews barred from Jerusalem and Emperor Hadrian builds new pagan city of Aelia Capitolina on its ruins.

330-640

Palestine under Byzantine rule: Jerusalem and Palestine increasingly Christianized.

638

Arabs under the Caliph 'Umar capture Palestine from Byzantines.

661-750

Umayyad caliphs -Arabs rule Palestine from Damascus. Dynasty descended from Umayya of Meccan tribe of Quraysh. Construction of Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem by Caliph 'Abd al-Malik (685-705). Construction of al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem by Caliph al-Walid I (705-715).

750-1258

'Abbasid caliphs rule Palestine from Iraq. -Arabs- Dynasty, founded by Abu al-' Abbas al-Saffah, who is descended from' Abbas, uncle of the Prophet.

969

Fatimid dynasty, claiming descent from the Prophet's daughter Fatima and her cousin 'Ali, rule Palestine from Egypt. They proclaim themselves caliphs in rivalry to the' Abbasids.

1071

Saljuqs, originally from Isfahan, capture Jerusalem and parts of Palestine, which remains officially within the 'Abbasid Empire. Abbasid the uncle of Mohamad an Arab

1099-1187

Crusaders establish the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem.

1187

Kurdish general Saladin (Salah al-Din who was born in Takrit northern Iraq, the birth place of Saddam Hussein too), son of Ayyub, the sultan of Mosul, defeats Crusaders at Hittin in northern Palestine and recaptures Jerusalem. The Ayyubid dynasty rules Palestine from Cairo.

1260

Mamluks succeed Ayyubids, ruling Palestine from Cairo; defeat Mongols at Battle of 'Ayn Jalut near Nazareth.

1291

Mamluks capture final Crusader strongholds of Acre and Caesarea.

1516-1917

Palestine incorporated into the Ottoman Empire with its capital in Istanbul.

1832-1840

Muhammad 'Ali Pasha of Egypt occupies Palestine. Ottomans subsequently reassert their rule.

1876-1877

Palestinian deputies from Jerusalem attend the first Ottoman Parliament in Istanbul, elected under a new Ottoman Constitution.

1878

The first modern Zionist agricultural settlement of Petach Tiqwa established (click here to learn more about Zionist and its impact on the Palestinian people).

1882-1903

First wave of 25,000 Zionist immigrants enters Palestine, coming mainly from eastern Europe.

1882

Baron Edmond de Rothschild of Paris starts financial backing for Jewish settlement in Palestine.

1887-1888

Palestine divided by Ottomans into the districts (sanjaks) of Jerusalem, Nablus, and Acre. The first was attached directly to Istanbul, the others to the wilayet of Beirut.

1896

Theodor Herzl, an Austro-Hungarian Jewish journalist and writer, publishes Der Judenstaat, advocating establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine or elsewhere.

1896

Jewish Colonization Association, founded in 1891 in London by German Baron Maurice de Hirsch, starts aiding Zionist settlements in Palestine.

1897

First Zionist Congress in Switzerland issues the Basle Program calling for the establishment of a "home for the Jewish people in Palestine." It also establishes the World Zionist Organization (WZO) to work to that end.

--------------------------------------

NOTE: even the Zionist Congress of 1897

[dgolvach]

Just to clarify I don't disagree that we need to deal with radical Muslims who are actively stirring up hatred or condoning acts of terror; I agree with the legal steps being taken to deal with these people. I also agree that action should be taken to find and eliminate terrorist cells and training camps.

What I disagree with is any kind of action against Muslims in general just because they are Muslims

If the "nice" Muslims continue to be so passive in this conflict, what makes anyone here think we will be able to afford the time to separate the "sheep from the goats". Where is the outrage from the larger Muslim community?????

When will we hear some friendly Muslim clerics issue a "Fatwa" on the not so friendly Muslims???????

Make no mistake...we really don't have all that much time(years and years) to sort all of the Muslim world . This is an extremely harsh truth but its TRUE.

I am not suggesting the "nuke" option but we may have to choose between staying alive or allowing large numbers of Muslims to enter into the land of the "infidels". (us)

For sure, an Islamonut will get his (or her) hands on something that is not all that big but can take out a great multitude of people. Just because wmd were not found in Iraq, does not mean they don't exist. It would be nothing to smuggle something that packs a big punch over our open border(s). Geez...millions of tons of drugs are smuggled over yearly. Why are some here under the impression that a tac-nuke or something like it can't find it's way into a major population center here. Perhaps where you and your children reside(God forbid). What a prize to present to Allah! A whole city of dead infidels.

Are you willing to gamble? Each of us will have to decide if this conflict is for real or is it just being drummed up by a pack of war crazed neo-con alarmists who have nothing better to do. Really think about it. We need to get real about this NOW!

It is very possible that we are already too late. We may have committed PC suicide.

I hope and pray that I am completely wrong on this but I don't think I am.

God Bless

Dan

[dgolvach]

Remember what you thought Islamonuts were capable of of September 10th 2001.

I thought the same thing

Dan

[Eadora]

Yoh dgolvach

Where is the outrage from the larger Muslim community?????

When will we hear some friendly Muslim clerics issue a "Fatwa" on the not so friendly Muslims???????

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