Iryssa Posted August 14, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 117 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,860 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/13/1984 Share Posted August 14, 2005 More like "Clementine" (which contains a description of the lady's death). Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to convince you to listen to this stuff. But personally, I can't see how listening to those songs sullies me. I don't feel tempted into the occult or drawn into some "dark place" by listening to them, and I have been known to throw out CDs because of what they do to me. I'm careful about it, just not legalistic. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Iryssa, I understand where you're coming from. The thing to understand is that Loreena McKinnet is an occultist, and her music is occultic. Any honest observer will admit that. Now, the occult is the dark and demonic realm. There are no 2 ways about it. A child of God, and hence the light, should not be revelling in the things of darkness. This isn't like someone saying they listen to opera, which is "worldly" since it isn't overtly "Christian." We're talking about straight-up occultism, which is Satanism when you get down to it. Listening to this music is "dabbling in the occult" in a very simple way. It isn't a "proactively advanced method" of dabbling, such as tarot or mediums. But, you are allowing an occultic influence to entertain you. It's just not a very wise thing to do. I never said listening to her will "send you to hell in a handbasket." But, it is occultic... and that should be enough for its cessation.. God bless ya, Iryssa. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I have demonstrated sufficiently that her music is not occultic. If my explanation is not good enough for you, I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do about it. Also, by listening to her music, I am not trying to emulate her in any way. There are some people who do that, but I am not one of them. If I were, I'd be running off with another man, like Amy Grant, or getting involved in other such scandals, like so many artists out there. Also, I find your insinuation that I am not an "honest observer" insulting. Do you listen to Mozart? He was a drunk, you know. By your standards, then, that would mean that listening to Mozart is not the right thing for a Christian to do, because you are allowing the music of an alcoholic "to entertain you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted August 14, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted August 14, 2005 I guess I'm more of the mindset that worldy music is part of the old man, not the new man. Music is sensual in nature... it appeases the senses. That is carnal by nature. What you'r advocating (and I'll deal with the scriptures after this) is something Marcion, or another gnostic founder, would applause and agree whole-heartedly with you on. I'm not trying to call you a gnostic, but what you stated is a purely gnostic teaching. Is that something you are comfortable with? The senses were created by God, are you say ing that something God created is carnal? Jam 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. James is appealing to human intellect that is intellect created under the fall. In essence, by becomming arrogant one uses the logic that is logic created out of the sinful nature of man. This is proven when he contrasts earthly and heavenly wisdom. Heavenely wisdom all have good characteristics free of the sinful nature of man while earthly wisdom is wisdom created in the fallen nature of man. It is not refering to the sense. If using our senses is wrong, then feeling something, seeing something, enjoying something, tasting something...is all wrong. Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. This works off the same analysis when we see a better interpretation for the Greek word is "wordly-minded". Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Flesh, when used in the New Testament, will refer to the fallen nature of man 90-95% of the time rather than the actual flesh of a man. John 6:63 falls within that 90-95%. He appeals to their physical nature but the deeper context is shown through out the entire chapter. Sometimes I just chalk things up to being "spiritual" or "carnal." Things of the Lord are spiritual, and things not of the Lord are carnal. That doesn't mean that all "carnal" things are evil, but they are worthy of examination as to what purpose it is having in our life. This is pure unadulterated dualism, which is the cornerstone of Gnosticism. For one, how do you define what is of the Lord and what is not of the Lord? Does it have to mention Him, does it have to be sung by someone belonging to Him? What is "of the Lord"? I encourage you to read this topic right here for a further examination into why what you just said is not only dangerous, but just as dangerous as listening to satanic music is. hi 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. How does this disqualify what you consider to be "carnal" things. If anything, this proves Paul would agree that if a "secular" song has a moral message or isn't contrary to the Biblical worldview, it would be okay to listen to. You, however, tend to believe that because it has been made in the flesh it is evil (a Marcionic belief). I do think that worldly music could be a stumbling block to another believer, so I would put that in the same category as alcohol. If you consume it, do so privately or with others who you know are of the same persuasion. I say and prove that wordly music isn't just music sung by non-Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joy in the Journey Posted August 14, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 477 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted August 14, 2005 I'm a little lost here What's wrong with [ secular ] music ? Why the controversy ? Do you watch the Tele ? Is every show ( and I mean every show ) you watch ( legalistically ) glorifying God ? How often to you go to the theatre ? How often do you do "worldly things" ? Do those things glorify God by their content ? I think not. Why does music get such a bad reputation all the time God wants us to be happy- not bound to a bunch of rules. Yes, we need to be accountable to ourselves and to others, but for goodness sake, why argue over petty things such as music ? ( Titus 3:9 ). God bless, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iryssa Posted August 14, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 117 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,860 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/13/1984 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Well said, Tim, my thoughts exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted August 14, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted August 14, 2005 I'm a little lost here  What's wrong with [ secular ] music ? Why the controversy ? Do you watch the Tele ? Is every show ( and I mean every show ) you watch ( legalistically ) glorifying God ? How often to you go to the theatre ? How often do you do "worldly things" ? Do those things glorify God by their content ? I think not. Why does music get such a bad reputation all the time  God wants us to be happy- not bound to a bunch of rules. Yes, we need to be accountable to ourselves and to others, but for goodness sake, why argue over petty things such as music ? ( Titus 3:9 ). God bless, Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Why the controversy? Maybe because you guys kicked out the Puritans and America was the only place to go Just kidding In all seriousness, to answer your question, yes, going to the movies, watching TV, hanging out with friends, etc ARE glorifying to God (so long as what we're watching or doing with our friends isn't contrary to a Christian worldview). THe reson for this is because humans were made to be creative and have fellowship (amongst other things) so by going to a movie we are watching creative artistic talent that honestly honors God. When hanging around friends we are fulfilling one of our purposes that God created us for, which honors God. Everything we do, no matter how mundane, either honors God or dishonors Him. So long as it isn't contrary to the Christian world view, it honors Him. As for the reason for the controversy, it's not the music I'm arguing, it's the thought behind the music. If someone says, "I hate that style", fine by me. But when someone says, "That style or that song isn't as spiritual as this one" there is a bigger concept behind it that must be addressed. It's not that I'm arguing the music, but I am arguing the concept behind the thought that makes the music evil. The reason for this is that dualism is a HUGE theological doctrine that happens to be false. Dualism lead to the denial of Jesus being God and that Christ really didn't die, amongst other things. So even when used in simplistic matters, it must be addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joy in the Journey Posted August 14, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 477 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/17/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted August 14, 2005 Why the controversy? Maybe because you guys kicked out the Puritans and America was the only place to go Just kidding <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Got me there mate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted August 14, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted August 14, 2005 Why the controversy? Maybe because you guys kicked out the Puritans and America was the only place to go Just kidding <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Got me there mate! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yet another reason I wish I was born English. That and pubs, Guiness, and MANCHESTER UNITED! Side note, Everton 0, United 2 And now back to the topic.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikado5001 Posted August 14, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 145 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 972 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/03/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/23/1973 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Regarding the profanity thing, SJ, quite a few people in that thread gave you ample reasons that profanity is unfitting for a child of God. You just refused to hear it. That doesn't make it invalid, simply because you refuse to recognize it. -T&O I can agree with that. I am trying very very hard to rid myself of my use of profanity. Even before I was saved, more so now. It started when a friend said to be. Damn is not the LORD'S last name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trust & Obey Posted August 14, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,091 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/23/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted August 14, 2005 More like "Clementine" (which contains a description of the lady's death). Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to convince you to listen to this stuff. But personally, I can't see how listening to those songs sullies me. I don't feel tempted into the occult or drawn into some "dark place" by listening to them, and I have been known to throw out CDs because of what they do to me. I'm careful about it, just not legalistic. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Iryssa, I understand where you're coming from. The thing to understand is that Loreena McKinnet is an occultist, and her music is occultic. Any honest observer will admit that. Now, the occult is the dark and demonic realm. There are no 2 ways about it. A child of God, and hence the light, should not be revelling in the things of darkness. This isn't like someone saying they listen to opera, which is "worldly" since it isn't overtly "Christian." We're talking about straight-up occultism, which is Satanism when you get down to it. Listening to this music is "dabbling in the occult" in a very simple way. It isn't a "proactively advanced method" of dabbling, such as tarot or mediums. But, you are allowing an occultic influence to entertain you. It's just not a very wise thing to do. I never said listening to her will "send you to hell in a handbasket." But, it is occultic... and that should be enough for its cessation.. God bless ya, Iryssa. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I have demonstrated sufficiently that her music is not occultic. If my explanation is not good enough for you, I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do about it. Also, by listening to her music, I am not trying to emulate her in any way. There are some people who do that, but I am not one of them. If I were, I'd be running off with another man, like Amy Grant, or getting involved in other such scandals, like so many artists out there. Also, I find your insinuation that I am not an "honest observer" insulting. Do you listen to Mozart? He was a drunk, you know. By your standards, then, that would mean that listening to Mozart is not the right thing for a Christian to do, because you are allowing the music of an alcoholic "to entertain you." <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Iryssa, I wasn't meaning to imply that you are a "dishonest observer," but perhaps you are a bit biased due to your love of the music. Loreena McKinnet is an occulitst, is she not? Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Can you find some justification in the Bible for taking enjoyment in occultists? If so, please show me. I've given several verses showing why we shouldn't. Regarding Mozart being a drunk... I don't listen to Mozart so I haven't thought about it. But, drunkenness and occultism are 2 completely different things. They are both sin, but occultism is devilism. They are not on the same footing. However, do I recommend having fellowship with drunkards? No, I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trust & Obey Posted August 14, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,091 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/23/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted August 14, 2005 I guess I'm more of the mindset that worldy music is part of the old man, not the new man. Music is sensual in nature... it appeases the senses. That is carnal by nature. What you'r advocating (and I'll deal with the scriptures after this) is something Marcion, or another gnostic founder, would applause and agree whole-heartedly with you on. I'm not trying to call you a gnostic, but what you stated is a purely gnostic teaching. Is that something you are comfortable with? The senses were created by God, are you say ing that something God created is carnal? Jam 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. James is appealing to human intellect that is intellect created under the fall. In essence, by becomming arrogant one uses the logic that is logic created out of the sinful nature of man. This is proven when he contrasts earthly and heavenly wisdom. Heavenely wisdom all have good characteristics free of the sinful nature of man while earthly wisdom is wisdom created in the fallen nature of man. It is not refering to the sense. If using our senses is wrong, then feeling something, seeing something, enjoying something, tasting something...is all wrong. Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. This works off the same analysis when we see a better interpretation for the Greek word is "wordly-minded". Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Flesh, when used in the New Testament, will refer to the fallen nature of man 90-95% of the time rather than the actual flesh of a man. John 6:63 falls within that 90-95%. He appeals to their physical nature but the deeper context is shown through out the entire chapter. Sometimes I just chalk things up to being "spiritual" or "carnal." Things of the Lord are spiritual, and things not of the Lord are carnal. That doesn't mean that all "carnal" things are evil, but they are worthy of examination as to what purpose it is having in our life. This is pure unadulterated dualism, which is the cornerstone of Gnosticism. For one, how do you define what is of the Lord and what is not of the Lord? Does it have to mention Him, does it have to be sung by someone belonging to Him? What is "of the Lord"? I encourage you to read this topic right here for a further examination into why what you just said is not only dangerous, but just as dangerous as listening to satanic music is. hi 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. How does this disqualify what you consider to be "carnal" things. If anything, this proves Paul would agree that if a "secular" song has a moral message or isn't contrary to the Biblical worldview, it would be okay to listen to. You, however, tend to believe that because it has been made in the flesh it is evil (a Marcionic belief). I do think that worldly music could be a stumbling block to another believer, so I would put that in the same category as alcohol. If you consume it, do so privately or with others who you know are of the same persuasion. I say and prove that wordly music isn't just music sung by non-Christians. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> SJ, I do understand what gnosticism is and I'm not saying that everything material is sinful. What I am pointing out is that in whatever we are doing for "our enjoyment" it is either feeding the fleshly side of us, or it is feeding the spiritual side of us. The man who discipled me after being saved shared something with me that has stuck even until now. He told me of the old Native American proverb of: Every man has 2 dogs battling in his heart. One is white and the other is black. Which one is going to win the battle? Answer: The one you feed the most. Feeding the spirit and starving the flesh is the recipe for spiritual vitality and victory. That is not "legalism," it is 100% supported by Scripture. We are told that sowing to the flesh will reap corruption, and sowing to the spirit will reap everlasting life. Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. I know how it can be difficult to completely abandon the world and the things of it. But, I think that is what God would have us do. Joh 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Going to a Loreena McKinnet concert would put you in fellowship with thousands of occultists and "pagans." Is that the kind of company we should keep? And if someone says "I don't go to her concerts, I just listen to her music." What does it say of someone when they are enjoying the same things as occultists and pagans? A new believer might see her and say, "I can be a believer and still listen to dark music by occultists?" Her music is dark. And she is an occultist. Do I love the sound of her music? Yes, it is mezmerizing. But, it is evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts