Is there justification for adding anything to the discussion of end times besides what the bible tell us.?

[Riverwalker]

15 minutes ago, Starise said:

As usual according to Josheb I haven't done anything correctly and misunderstood everything. ACCUSATIONS reign in your methods here on a regular basis.  I would say fully 95% of everything you type is some sort of either a slam or an accusation.

What do people of good character do to solidify an idea? They talk about the idea and reason.

What do people of bad character do? The slam other people.

 

 

All I have to say here, is I am easily triggered by such attitudes, but it's just not worth the strife.  Say it once, if they won't hear it, let them go. (Yeah I am great one for giving advice, not so much in following it  )

 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Waaaaay too much is being read into the 2 Thes. 2 passage. That post serves as an excellent demonstration of the concerns broached by this op. It's not that the content is all wrong, but that much of it has nothing to do with the statements of the text in question. It also still ignores what I have already posted. An example of this in both regards is the fact Paul is not writing directly to people today, nor directly about about people today. Every single occasion in which the word "today" is injected into the conversation the current concern of 2 Thes. 2 is abandoned and the concern of the op is demonstrated. 

Paul's talking about events future to the Thessalonians but he always uses the word, "you"," not "them," or "they." Yet people make it about "us" often. 

Perfect example of the LETTER vs the Spirit.  

There we have it.  You understand it one way and I understand it another.  We also do not communicate well as our styles are very different.  

You keep STATING but never showing in a way in which I can see though you can see what I am saying and disagree.  What you have already posted is not complete to me though it is complete to you. 

The rest is in Gods Hands.  

But maybe I do, I really at this point have no idea  if I do or don't.


I think a part of the JOEL prophecy was identified by Peter as happening before there very eyes, BUT THE whole JOEL PROPHECY was not taking place.   I don't think because God has included things in prophecy that precludes Him from doing parts of them at other times.  You think if any part of a prophecy is fulfilled then it is considered done.

You say Paul is saying the man of lawless was then, I say Paul  is saying he is future.  

You say Paul is only writing to those of that VERY day. And what he was writing was happening in that very day.   I am saying it is to ALL the generations and happening in a future generation.  

I like lots of God Word as all of it is very important.  You like it isolated.


I would think that if that MOL was actually there then, a man they knew of, and I don't know what you think happened at this point so I can't say BUT if anything happened, and Jesus returned at that time  -   there would be no flesh.


I feel both sides have been fully covered.  

 

[DeighAnn]

53 minutes ago, Starise said:

As usual according to Josheb I haven't done anything correctly and misunderstood everything. ACCUSATIONS reign in your methods here on a regular basis.  I would say fully 95% of everything you type is some sort of either a slam or an accusation.

What do people of good character do to solidify an idea? They talk about the idea and reason.

What do people of bad character do? The slam other people.

I will say that you are running in circles here. We looked at 1 Thess. I might have misunderstood that you want to look at it first. You seem hyper focused on only one text when God gave us multiple texts. According to your self imposed rules you think you(we) should examine 2 Thess. first.

Have you picked it apart and related it to your ideas? Probably but I haven't seen it here yet.

Way back about 20 posts, I said something you might have missed. I think it might be relevant yet again. Could 2 Thess. be both a present ( at the time of the writing) and a future explanation? In not attempting to force a meaning  I can see that there were some things that were happening(present tense) also some things that would happen. Is that something you have considered, might consider or wouldn't consider? 

I think the mystery of lawlessness was at work then. It is still at work. Why make things so complicated? I don't believe we need to force a meaning into a place where a meaning won't fit. This seems to fit though. The text says what it says. 

How does one exclude an additional future view from texts that, when compared encourage it?

 

OMG I think I just copied your post using different words.  Weird

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

An example of this in both regards is the fact Paul is not writing directly to people today, nor directly about about people today

Then  this needs to be proved. 




BECAUSE 1 THESS is definitely future to them as it is to us.  If nothing else tells us it was written to us, to us today, to the last generation,  the fig tree commencing that clock in which all prophecy will be fulfilled,  the end of the punishment almost to the day, then nothing else ever will. 



Don't be ignorant like the heathen as to where we go when we die.  GODS going to PROVE THIS TRUTH. 

 

When?  

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Those who have died are with God and they are returning. 
WHEN?  unto the coming of the Lord

 

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

What happens when the Lord comes?   There will be those   ALL still alive in the flesh  who are either spiritually dead or spiritually alive

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Could you imagine what that shout will do to those with the mark?  I can.  How bright the brightness of Christ to those in the dark.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

HOW do we know there will be NO FLESH?  Gotta leave Thess now for a bit of the "here a little there a little" part of the instructions on how to understand Gods Plan


Christ is returning, the last trump,  tells us this is truth.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption
.

Hopefully Christ returning is clearly seen as The kingdom of God becoming "on earth as it is in heaven"  SPIRITUAL, hence spiritual bodies will only be allowed.  The flesh death, the 1st death, the death Satan had power over is NO MORE.  Fear not those who can kill the body......

 

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

ALL gonna be changed.    One way or the other.  But I would have to say that WE shall see what happens to them. 

When?

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

WHO will be on the earth when Christ returns? 

1.   Those with the mark (dead) and
2.   those who have overcome (alive and remaining)
 

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

We know the dead aren't putting it on

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


How  is anyone dying if death was defeated in the first century. 

 

 

 

[DeighAnn]

22 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

?????

Is that statement sincere? As is the case with most of the epistles, Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians  opens with a statement stating to who it was originally written and for whom it was originally intended. 

2 Thessalonians 1:1-2
"Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:  Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

The New Testament is timeless and its truths apply to all people in all eras but it was not written directly to people living in the 21st century. Every single book in the NT was originally written directly to those living at the time those books were penned. In the case of 2 Thessalonians the letter itself states to whom it was directly written: the ecclesia of the Thessalonians! It was not written directly to the ecclesia in Corinth, nor those of Philippi or Ephesus or Colossae. It was not written directly to Timothy, nor Silvanus, James, John, or Peter. According the the letter itself it was written directly to the Thessalonians and mostly about the the Thessalonians (not entirely, but mostly). 

It does not need proving. 

It is self-evident to anyone actually reading what is actually written in the letter itself.

 

 

We can discuss, debate, dispute, and/or argue its contents' relevance to us today but to whom it was originally and directly written is not a matter up for dispute. Big Fail.

My mistake for assuming THE most absolutely OBVIOUS first level of bible knowledge didn't NEED to be gone over EVER with people who post here OR anyone who knows the first thing about the New Testament for that matter. 

Do you really believe that I had NO KNOWLEDGE of who it was ADDRESSED to originally?   No need to answer, either answer is very telling in and of itself.


Maybe the realization that JOELS prophecy was NOT FULFILLED has you going back to the basics and starting afresh?  That would be awesome.


AS Paul WAS writing of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, the Return of Christ, which happens in the LAST generation and THIS IS the last generation as ATTESTED to by Israel becoming a nation again, (a prophecy that was fulfilled) 

THEN YES,

Paul was writing to this EXACT GENERATION. 

"The Letter" of the LETTER is exactly as you have stated it. 

THE SPIRT of the LETTER is THE REVEALING OF THE PLAN OF GOD.


The letter contains information that directly concerns this generation and this generation only WILL LIVE IT.

Just stating the obvious.  

AND 

the RETURN of Christ comes in this generation. 

ALSO OBVIOUS,  is the fact that the falling away and the man of sin are OF THIS GENERATION and not that one.  

No need to prove it didn't happen then as we are in the flesh as as  

that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:


AND IF wicked were destroyed and bound and thrown in the pit and the pit closed and sealed THIS world age would already BE PAST. 

Well that was fun, non productive, but fun none the less.  BUT I think the point is to move past the BASICS things like

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him;

Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Hebrews 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

THE LETTER KILLETH, THE SPIRIT MAKES ALIVE.  
 

[WilliamL]

On 1/14/2021 at 3:13 PM, Riverwalker said:

They are not useless, God does not give us useless word, they are useful for their purpose.  To make us aware of of the day, not to define it

 

Good thing Daniel thought differently than you, because he believed the 70 years' prophecy of Jeremiah meant something specific, and prayed accordingly.

[Riverwalker]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Good thing Daniel thought differently than you, because he believed the 70 years' prophecy of Jeremiah meant something specific, and prayed accordingly.

I believe it all means something specific, but WHAT EXACTLY? ...NO ONE knows

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Hmmmm.... so my posts are telling but your are not? 

 

What I know is what is stated in the posts. I don't know any poster in Worthy personally. ALL I know of anyone is what is posted. What I know about the posts is a question was asked and that question is answered in scripture. What I know is that a question that was answered by scripture 200 years ago was asked - unnecessarily asked. What I know isthe question asked was provided an answer and at least one other poster commended that answer. What I know is the answer provided to the unnecessarily asked question is correct; the correct answer was provided and commended. What I know is everything I just listed can be proven by simply reviewing..... what is actually posted in prior posts. There can be no dispute over the these facts because they are objectively observable simply by reading they posts and verifying what is stated. 

What I also know is that rather than simply acknowledging the answer provided by scripture you think the rhetoric you posted is okay. 

It is not. 

 

 

The salient point is this: the second epistle to the Thessalonians was written directly to those Thessalonians as identified at the beginning of the epistle, and there should be any dispute over that fact and no one nowadays should be claiming the letter was written directly to us. 

It was not. 

And that is part of the "when" of 2 Thes. 2! 

And those are the facts of 2 Thessalonians regardless of what you think Joel and Hebrews are saying when you fail to accept what the OT prophets state and the NT texts state about the OT prophets. I'm happy to "move past the basics" once any one of you accepts the basics - as stated in scripture. But you, DaighAnn are spending way too much time defending your already existing views and not sitting with me or walking with me through the texts, one text at a time, as written. Lots of others will will argue scripture with you wantonly and not exegetically running from this scripture to that one and what this says and that says and never settling on any one of them. 

I will not. 

So decide. 

Is it me with whom you want to have this conversation because I have my boundaries well intact. I know with what and not what I will collaborate. You can post anything you like any time you like but don't expect me to collaborate with, 

...and you making this all about me. 

Bad form. 

So make the next post well because it does say something about you but I'm not interested in being your judge. Post, not poster. @ Thes. was written to those in Thessalonica in the first century. Peter declares Pentecost the fulfillment of Joel's prophesy of the Spirit's outpouring and absent any scripture stating there will be more than one fulfillment we can and should treat that passage from Joel as fulfilled because that is how God treated it when speaking through the apostle Peter. 

Anyone relying on scripture as written, plainly stated and plainly read should and will agree. Agreement is a wonderful think to build upon. 

Once again IT WAS ADDRESSED TO The Church, in Thessalonica.  It had to be written and addressed to someone.  

 Yes, Written in that year.

It contained very REVELANT information that  needed to be  written so as to be passed down to the FINAL Generation TO WHOM IT WOULD BE APPLICABLE. 

AS there were going to be no other prophets God would be speaking through once that 1st Century ended, He had to get it done somehow.  That is how He chose to do it.  

That is all that matters.  Christ will return and His return WILL END Satans deception.  

It's as basic as basic gets.  

AS for Joels Prophecy, THE CONTENTION that God treated it as fulfilled, 
 SHOW ME.  

The passage doesn't.  NOR does Peter in any way shape or form.   

What are Peters words??? Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the
prophet Joel;

WHAT WAS THE THIS??  

WERE THERE MEN DREAMING DREAMS?  YOUNG MEN HAVING VISIONS?  

 

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

DID HE POUR HIS SPIRIT OUT UPON ALL FLESH?  No, just some of the crowd.

Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

Was this happening at the time?  HAS it ever COME TO PASS?  

How about any of these?  

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

THE ONE AND ONLY THING PETER WAS DEFENDING WAS THOSE WHO THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS SPEAKING THROUGH.  

or AM I WRONG?  DID THESE THINGS HAPPEN? 

WHY CONTINUE TO STAND UPON SOMETHING NOT WRITTEN AS IF IT WERE? 

WHAT ARE WE HERE TO DO?  FIND GODS TRUTH.  And when we find it we should rejoice and give praise to the Lord for having opened our eyes.  Can't say how many times it has happened to me.  One thing I pray about alot is always teaching His Truth, not mine. 

Because we come from such different positions, there is no where to go from here.  You have stated your position and it has not swayed me on mine.  I have done the same and it has not swayed you on yours.  So there is nothing left to say on this subject.  Maybe at some later date it will change if it does I will come find you and we could maybe move forward from there.  Maybe it will be the other way around.  Gods Will Be Done.  

[DeighAnn]

22 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Are you a universalist, DeaighAnn? I just want to understand your orientation. 

As I have no idea what that means I couldn't tell you.  SO, I ask you  "IS THAT WHAT IS STATED?"

[DeighAnn]

24 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Let's ask the others: Everyone: does any one here read Joel 2:28 to mean every single human, including those who do not believe in the God of the Bible and those who deny God's existence will have God's Spirit poured out on them? Seriously; I'd like to know if I'm the outlier here. Anyone think the "all flesh" (KJV) or "all mankind" (NAS) of Joel 2:28 literally means "every single human being no matter their views on God/Jesus"? 

 

THOSE led by the Spirit SEE it different that those who go by the letter and "AS STATED" is all that is seen.