The Law is NOT for Christians but all true Christian will exhibit the nature of the Holy Spirit which does not contradicts or go against the law.

[Completed Israelite]

1 hour ago, JohnD said:

Those who did not abandon the first covenant

for the second are like ones who held the King's

herald as the king rather than the actual King.

The Mosiac covenant is actually the 4th covenant! And the Newer covenant the 5th, they all stack like a pyramid, and never go away.

Adamic covenant-for man to have dominion over the earth and be fruitful and multiply etc...Noahic covenant and the rainbow, that God will never again destroy all life by flood...Abrahamic covenant-circumsion,..Mosaic covenant-the written instruction(Torah) for Anyone who claims Him as Thier God.  All who keep.. get all the blessings tied to it, won't have plagues and all that come upon them as it did Egypt.

And then the Final covenant, for Eternal life, Salvation, redemption, where God will write HIS Torah upon the Heart of Israel and Judah, put a new spirit within them, and remember Thier sins no more. 

No covenant overwrites the prior, they are all eternal and work together in perfect harmony. But most the covenants only apply to Israel and Judah, anyone else must be grafted in, and become one with Israel in order to partake. 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Completed Israelite

[choir loft]

The title of this thread is really inane.

I wonder if the one that wrote it really understands the words.

Consider:

If the Holy Spirit "does not contradict ... the LAW" and if "the LAW is not for Christians", then the logic of the statement implies the SPIRIT isn't for Christians because the LAW isn't for them either.  How can they (Christians) be saved?  Apart from LAW & SPIRIT one is just playing at religion - and playing the game badly as the title of this thread reveals.

In truth one cannot be saved apart from the LAW.

Most Christians who object to any reference to the LAW don't realize the writers of the New Testament, including those who quoted Jesus Christ, were debating TWO laws.    One is Torah and the other is Talmud.   Big Difference.

According to current definitions of Jewish tradition, Jesus (and the apostles) would be termed Karaite (or Qaraite) Jews.  Google the term.  The New Testament does NOT teach Talmudic law.   It DOES teach Torah (and the prophets of the Tanakh). Google Tanakh.

Torah teaches salvation according to the gift of God.   Some call this grace, but it is elaborated to great detail in the first five books of the Bible (Torah or Pentateuch as Christians call it).  Grace is an act of God, solely dependent upon God's initiation and action and continuation.  In this sense the LAW of Torah IS GRACE revealed in detail.

Talmud teaches that God owes something to those who act out in life those precepts it demands.  In other words - works.

Torah says God owes man nothing.  He gives freely or He gives not at all. Humans are called upon to surrender to His will (LAW) or die.  Does this sound familiar?

Torah says its ok to eat deer meat (giraffe too, but who would want to?) because deer split the hoof and chew the cud.  Talmud says deer meat isn't kosher because it's usually killed in the wild and not according to Talmudic specifications (in a slaughterhouse with rabbinic oversight).  This is the sort of religious mumbo jumbo Jesus and the apostles argued against constantly.  They NEVER said the LAW was abolished.  

Matthew 5:17

The LAW still stands.  One will either live by the LAW (with God's help encouragement and assistance) or one will die by the LAW.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft... 

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by choir loft

[JohnD]

11 hours ago, Completed Israelite said:

The Mosiac covenant is actually the 4th covenant! And the Newer covenant the 5th, they all stack like a pyramid, and never go away.

Adamic covenant-for man to have dominion over the earth and be fruitful and multiply etc...Noahic covenant and the rainbow, that God will never again destroy all life by flood...Abrahamic covenant-circumsion,..Mosaic covenant-the written instruction(Torah) for Anyone who claims Him as Thier God.  All who keep.. get all the blessings tied to it, won't have plagues and all that come upon them as it did Egypt.

And then the Final covenant, for Eternal life, Salvation, redemption, where God will write HIS Torah upon the Heart of Israel and Judah, put a new spirit within them, and remember Thier sins no more. 

No covenant overwrites the prior, they are all eternal and work together in perfect harmony. But most the covenants only apply to Israel and Judah, anyone else must be grafted in, and become one with Israel in order to partake. 

Acts 15 (AV)
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

 

 

1 Kings 8:46 (AV)
46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

Romans 3:23 (AV)
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 3:10 (AV)
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

 

James 2:10 (AV)
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

Galatians 3:24–28 (AV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

 

 

[JohnD]

Covenants 1 - 5 were in fact superseded by the more contemporary covenant which is evident by the fact that

one could not revert to a prior covenant.

[JohnD]

The ultimate purpose for Torah was to drive us to Grace.

When we are driven to Grace and have faith in Messiah

we fulfill that ultimate purpose. Or more accurately

Messiah fulfilled Torah and gave his life as a sacrifice

to be able to impute his righteousness into our accounts...

once it is activated by faith in Messiah.

And his resurrection was to conquer death of course,

and to pave the way for our eternal life with him in his

presence beyond our forgiveness.

[Completed Israelite]

20 hours ago, JohnD said:

Acts 15 (AV)
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

 

 

1 Kings 8:46 (AV)
46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

Romans 3:23 (AV)
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 3:10 (AV)
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

 

James 2:10 (AV)
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

Galatians 3:24–28 (AV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

 

 

Yes people confused salvation with Torah, that's what your seeing in acts 15 brother. Notice the first line you highlighted....Ye cannot be saved! This was just a false doctrine at the time, as Gods instruction(Torah) was NEVER the means of salvation....i said never...Noah found grace, Abraham counted rightoues by faith, thats apart of Torah,  ppl in the West confuse Torah with commandments only, it also includes creation and multiple chosen ones of Israel etc. And ppl over look a major clue of Torah at the very back....There is never again been a PROPHET like moses....haha yes Torah is all prophecy as well...this is all to be wrote on our heart in Newest covenant. 

When you look at acts 15.....verse 21 should draw your eye the very most, bc not until AFTER then with the ELDERS OF JUDAISIM agree. It's showing that they still expected the converts to learn Torah, but in the way that's echoed by Isiaha "commandment by commandment, line by line, a bit here, a bit there" at Thier own pace...So they gave them a list how to better fellowship with Jews as they entered synogoge on Shabbat. 

And don't let Paul's *letters* Fool you, Peter warned about that.

And Paul never once spoke against circumsion of baby's on the 8th day etc. He was talking to a very specific group of ppl, who wanted to circumsice for wrong reason "to boast in the flesh"

He is what we call in Judaisim....Talmud...rabbinical commentary...He is not being told from God "write this down" and if your unlearned in Torah u will not understand rabbi Paul.

Moses said listen to all the  Messiah says....He said not one Yod or tiddle will pass from Torah until heaven and earth pass away, all who DO and Teach, and all those who dont...etc... It's extremely clear. 

And like I said there's 5 covenants and the rainbow still holds true, and so did circumsion from Abraham into the mosaic...And likewise the mosaic into the Final covenant . 

Every commandment from unclean animals to shewing a mother bird off the best b4 u take her eggs will bring you closer to God, thru His Messiah...

Like it says in revaltion "those who keep the commandments of God and has testimony of Yeshua(Jesus). 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Completed Israelite

[DeighAnn]

Simplified,  YOU who teach against it,  here is what your future holds, 

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Christ, IS THE WORD, made flesh.  
He came not to destroy it.  He came to FULFILL the prophecies of Him written within them.  

What was nailed to the CROSS with Him?  ALL the things that went into having your sins forgiven by  sacrifice, the rituals, killing an animal, the priest as go between, etc.  Because the infinite value of the blood of the Lamb slain FOR the forgiveness of our sins COULD NEVER be surpassed.  
 

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.




LOOK what happens to the commandments, we don't become LESS responsible, we become MORE.

Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


Don't get me wrong, we are no longer under the law, AS THE LAW COULD NOT SAVE and the law could not forgive. 

You could try and follow it but WITHOUT the Holy Spirits help well kinda doomed to fail. 

If you stole a piece of candy, YOU BROKE THE LAW. 
If you murdered the whole town, YOU BROKE THE LAW. 
And if you broke the law...

SEE one of the PRoblems?