Joyce Meyers

[Walter and Deborah]

On 2/10/2021 at 12:37 AM, clancy said:

Have you heard of her?

What do you think of her teaching?

 

@clancy, but yes I have heard of her from years ago of her teachings, in which, I have learned some things, but for me not to have my own way about them.

Later in life I also found that after the Lord have said to take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, but not of someone else.

I truly think of Joyce Meyer as a sincere person in her teaching, but I will be in prayer for her deliverance in areas needed.

I also think that all teachings must be as to speak the same things as the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:10 

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our LORD Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

So, what do you say about the above ?

Love, Walter 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Walter and Deborah
More info.

[David1701]

13 hours ago, Tristen said:

“Maybe you don't consider these false teachings to be heretical”

That is correct. I do not see mistakes, errors, or out-of-balance teaching pertaining to non-essential doctrines as “heretical”. God has had to correct me over so many errors since my conversion, that I am more than ready to pay that grace forward.

 

“but most knowledgeable Christians do.”

This is a form of True Scotsman fallacy. It's also an Unsupported Assertion.

 

“If you have a cake with 95% wholesome ingredients and 5% poison, will you eat it?”

Are you claiming that your understanding of doctrine is the only true, undefiled, error-free interpretation of scripture; i.e. 100% “wholesome” and therefore beyond correction?

 

“It's the truths that trap you into accepting the errors. The most effective counterfeit looks as close to the real thing as possible, without being the real thing”

OK – but this is little more than Innuendo.

Again, you are taking a small grouping of data points, and using them to condemn decades worth of ministry.

Is it possible that Joyce Meyer is sincere before God, but given her prolific preaching and writing profile, she occasionally makes mistakes – i.e. 'mistakes' that someone like yourself latches onto to denigrate her motives, and the entirety of her work performed for God?

 

“ Really? Well, it took me about two minutes of searching online, to find her teaching faith as a force.

"Faith is something God gives you that you need to use and release in your life. It’s a powerful force, but it’s not just automatic. You put your trust in God. You put your faith in Him." ”

I have no problem with anything in this quote. It basically says that faith is active, rather than passive. Do you disagree with that? Or maybe you latched onto the word “force” - and decided it means something beyond the obvious.

Nevertheless, I have two objections to your use of this example;

1 - Even if this quote was problematic, you would still be quote-mining from decades worth of teaching. Did you examine the context? Was she really pushing the idea that faith is some kind of naturalistic “force” (as your original comment suggested), or was she simply teaching that faith is something we need to actively apply?

2 – Your original claim (i.e. the one to which I was responding) included teaching that faith is “a force that anyone, whether Christian or otherwise, can use (this is witchcraft, not Christianity)”. The provided quote does not say this in any respect. So your “Really?” comment was either ill-considered or disingenuous.

 

“I see; so, you don't think that denying Christ's victory on the cross is a heresy”

So this is an Equivocation, and a Strawman argument. Being in error about Jesus going to hell after His death is not the same as “denying Christ's victory on the cross”.

I can see how one might relate them, but they are not the same thing.

 

“The problem is not the teaching that Christ descended into Hades”

My point was that 'hell' and 'Hades' are often incorrectly used interchangeably – which contributes to people's confusion about where Jesus was between crucifixion and resurrection.

 

“the problem is that they teach that Satan DEFEATED Christ on the cross and tortured him in hell”

Does Joyce Meyer teach that “Satan DEFEATED Christ on the cross”?

Another common doctrinal error is that demons torture people “in hell”.

 

“ Well now, that's strange, because it's one of their common teachings!

This clip from Joyce Meyers took me about 10 seconds to find”

- I have probably heard hundreds of her sermons and have no specific memory of hearing her teach this. So by what metric are you claiming it to be “one of their common teachings”? Is it like; 'Every time I hear her teach, she carries on about us being “little gods”'? Or is it just more unjustified hyperbole you hoped would slip by me. The clip itself was posted in 2007, but unfortunately does not reference the date of the sermon itself (but safely - at least 12 years old). So exactly how “common” is this teaching in her overall ministry – i.e. if we have to go back 12 years to find an example?

- So you “found” it – did you listen to it? I have no problem with anything she said in this ~5 minute excerpt. To summarise her point; We are made in the image of God, and should therefore be mindful to act as such; including being aware of the power and dominion that God has delegated to those created in His image. She built her point around quoting both Jesus, and then the Psalmist (Asaph);

John 10:34-35 - Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

Psalm 82 - God stands in the congregation of the mighty;

He judges among the gods.

2 How long will you judge unjustly,

And show partiality to the wicked? Selah

…

6 I said, “You are gods,

And all of you are children of the Most High.

7 But you shall die like men,

And fall like one of the princes.”

- And yet again, you employ the disingenuous strategy of pretending your evidence supports your claim, when it only supports the innocuous aspect of your claim. Nowhere in this “clip” does Joyce Meyer teach “that we (i.e. Christians) do not have God in us”. It is neither stated, nor implied.

 

“It appears that you have a very selective experience (maybe God has been graciously shielding you from some of their more outrageous false teachings)”

I suppose that is possible. Though it seems unlikely that the Holy Spirit would protect me from their “common”, “outrageous”, “false teachings”, but allow me to grow spiritually under what is supposedly leftover truths amidst all that alleged corruption.

It is more plausible to me that you have developed a false impression based on limited information – and are using that false impression to justify speaking against God's anointed.

 

“This is taken grossly out of context and is nothing to do with assessing false teachers, which we are SUPPOSED to do”

Actually, Romans 14 is talking about how to deal with disagreeing with people over whether or not we are to keep the Sabbaths and dietary rules prescribed under the Law (Christian subjection to the Law arguably does rise to the level of heresy).

And remind me – by what measure are we “SUPPOSED” to be “assessing false teachers”?

 

“None so blind as those who will not see”

I'm happy to consider a rational argument. Empty Innuendo is a logic fallacy – i.e. the opposite of rational argument.

 

“I see you heading for a cliff, so I warn you. You turn round, while still heading for the cliff and insult me for warning you”

Lol. “insult”, “trashed”. Are you really so precious?

Maybe if you'd stick to rational argument instead of emotive retort, I'd be more inclined to heed your “warning”.

 

“I'm Scottish and, although we are more straightforward than the English (generally speaking) I still have some British indirectness in my approach”

Well – I'm Australian (which is largely irrelevant) - and I consider fallacy to be a waste of time in most contexts.

 

“I'll be blunt. I believe that you are being adversely affected by the WoF teachings”

OK – at least that is something I can take to God.

Will you take to God the possibility that you have been enticed into slandering His servants?

 

“Or, it could be that the shoe is on the other foot”

It is common for me to pray that God would open my eyes to protect me from damaging error. I will continue to do so.

 

I don't want to repeat myself, or get into protracted debate about details, so I'll just point out that the false teachings of JM are common to the WoF.  They are not snippets taken from decades of teaching "ministry"; they are teachings that virtually all WoF teachers share.  They copy each other; in fact, it's well known (because he has admitted it) that Kenneth Copeland started out his "ministry" by listening to tapes of Kenneth Hagin, over and over again, memorising them, then preaching them himself.  He later added teachings of his own.

[Whyme]

I don't understand rich preachers who live in mansions. When did we run out of poor people and start building mansions? Forgive me for being judgmental but I just don't understand it

[David1701]

6 minutes ago, Whyme said:

I don't understand rich preachers who live in mansions. When did we run out of poor people and start building mansions? Forgive me for being judgmental but I just don't understand it

Prosperity "gospel" preachers teach that we are supposed to be rich in material goods.

[Whyme]

Just now, David1701 said:

Prosperity "gospel" preachers teach that we are supposed to be rich in material goods.

My conscience would bother me if I lived in a mansion while people are homeless and hungry. Prosperity gospel is wrong in my opinion.

[Riverwalker]

9 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

To those of us that are fairly toothless, we have learned to pick the meat off the bones and not get overly concerned with skeletons.

While I appreciate it that is gawdawful expression

We are told however to correct, and even rebuke when need be

2nd Timothy 4:I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 

Because there are wolvies out there dressed up like sheep.

Now HOW you choose to that is personal to you.  Me I tend to be very direct. But I once knew a fellow who could argue someone into the ground, while gently hearing and agreeing to a point their argument but with one or two gentle words was able to disassemble the argument. He was one of those friends  and ministries that you don't really appreciate until they are they are gone.  I can't imagine anyone more long suffering than he.

But he didn't have to be direct, He didn't have to throw a roadblock up against false teaching. He just diverted the stream until it got back on course.

So how you bring the truth to those who need it, is up to you and God, He spun us out of the womb with differing gifts.  But please do something. Because without the light on the hill to guide the lost, they remain lost.

[Starise]

6 minutes ago, Whyme said:

I don't understand rich preachers who live in mansions. When did we run out of poor people and start building mansions? Forgive me for being judgmental but I just don't understand it

I don't believe this is being judgmental. There are different aspects to this subject. There are many teachings in the bible concerning money. 

On one hand if God calls certain people to give more than most, they can't give away everything because they use money to make more money so they can continue to give over the long term. Giving also requires prudence. We can give to either great useful causes or pour our money into lame things that have no chance of helping anyone. This is where many people run into trouble in giving to ministries and organizations that are false or misdirected or simply corrupt. A lot of responsibility goes to the giver.

When it comes to these ministers who are filthy rich one has to ask why or how this ministry came about and what their motives really are?  They say a true sign of character is what we do when no one is watching. If you had lots and lots of money coming in and you had the ability to write your own paycheck what would you do "if" this was a Christian ministry designed to help others? 

If the motive is to reach others with the gospel and the ministry is bringing in lots of cash, the most obvious choice after everyone is paid a reasonable salary would be to reinvest in either that ministry or another ministry that somehow furthers the cause of Christ. Instead many of these false teachers are hoarding large sums for themselves. In this case, the motive for the ministry here seems very clear. I realize that even many Christians get into that "one more thing"trap if they have the money. I believe God wants us to have what we need and He even wants us to have some enjoyment, however if we put more emphasis on the material than we do on the eternal that means we are carnal and worldly minded. See Matt 6. The fact that many of these name it and claim it people are seriously hoarding ministry money should be a red flag to all. I compare their behavior to all of those websites you can go to that promise to help you make money for a fee. The only ones getting rich are the web site owners. 

As another comparison a Texas senator just took a vacation to Cancun Mexico right in the middle of the worst power outage in the history of his state went down during the winter. He was laying on the beach sunning it up while people in his state were freezing to death. How would you look at him as a leader? As a person who "gets down in the trenches" with those he is charged with overseeing? Same with these false teachers. They are walking contradictions. THEY are taking in the cash while they tell the poor they can "name it and claim it". Claim what? They are broke.

Idolatry is the practice of worshiping anything other than God or putting anything above God that takes the place of God. How many of them would trade their riches for a simple faith in Christ?

Jesus did not come here to make us all rich. He came to prepare us for the next life. It's not really about $$. Jesus came with a spiritual message, although he DOES say he is "going to prepare a place for us" and that " in my house are many mansions". One day God will eliminate many of the problems induced by lack of money when we all get to glory.

Matthew 6:19-21, "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

Mark 10:25, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God."

 

 

 

 

[Whyme]

1 minute ago, Starise said:

I don't believe this is being judgmental. There are different aspects to this subject. There are many teachings in the bible concerning money. 

On one hand if God calls certain people to give more than most, they can't give away everything because they use money to make more money so they can continue to give over the long term. Giving also requires prudence. We can give to either great useful causes or pour our money into lame things that have no chance of helping anyone. This is where many people run into trouble in giving to ministries and organizations that are false or misdirected or simply corrupt. A lot of responsibility goes to the giver.

When it comes to these ministers who are filthy rich one has to ask why or how this ministry came about and what their motives really are?  They say a true sign of character is what we do when no one is watching. If you had lots and lots of money coming in and you had the ability to write your own paycheck what would you do "if" this was a Christian ministry designed to help others? 

If the motive is to reach others with the gospel and the ministry is bringing in lots of cash, the most obvious choice after everyone is paid a reasonable salary would be to reinvest in either that ministry or another ministry that somehow furthers the cause of Christ. Instead many of these false teachers are hoarding large sums for themselves. In this case, the motive for the ministry here seems very clear. I realize that even many Christians get into that "one more thing"trap if they have the money. I believe God wants us to have what we need and He even wants us to have some enjoyment, however if we put more emphasis on the material than we do on the eternal that means we are carnal and worldly minded. See Matt 6. The fact that many of these name it and claim it people are seriously hoarding ministry money should be a red flag to all. I compare their behavior to all of those websites you can go to that promise to help you make money for a fee. The only ones getting rich are the web site owners. 

As another comparison a Texas senator just took a vacation to Cancun Mexico right in the middle of the worst power outage in the history of his state went down during the winter. He was laying on the beach sunning it up while people in his state were freezing to death. How would you look at him as a leader? As a person who "gets down in the trenches" with those he is charged with overseeing? Same with these false teachers. They are walking contradictions. THEY are taking in the cash while they tell the poor they can "name it and claim it". Claim what? They are broke.

Idolatry is the practice of worshiping anything other than God or putting anything above God that takes the place of God. How many of them would trade their riches for a simple faith in Christ?

Jesus did not come here to make us all rich. He came to prepare us for the next life. It's not really about $$. Jesus came with a spiritual message, although he DOES say he is "going to prepare a place for us" and that " in my house are many mansions". One day God will eliminate many of the problems induced by lack of money when we all get to glory.

Matthew 6:19-21, "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

Mark 10:25, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God."

 

 

 

 

I can understand storing money to feed the poor but can't understand building a mansion or living a luxurious lifestyle.

[Riverwalker]

55 minutes ago, Whyme said:

I don't understand rich preachers who live in mansions. When did we run out of poor people and start building mansions? Forgive me for being judgmental but I just don't understand it

Again this goes to the heart of their message.  Have it all NOW!  But that is not the Gospel message. Yes we will have a mansion. but not here, not now.

 My wife is always mad at me because she says she wants a Jaguar. And I ask her how she can justify spending on a car that which could buy a house for a needy family. (Not like we could ever afford a Jag...)

John 14:2

In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

[Whyme]

Just now, Riverwalker said:

Again this goes to the heart of their message.  Have it all NOW!  But that is not the Gospel message. Yes we will have a mansion. but not here, not now.

 My wife is always mad at me because she says she wants a Jaguar. And I ask her how she can justify spending on a car that which could buy a house for a needy family. (Not like we could ever afford a Jag...)

John 14:2

In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I have never heard a NT scripture that promised wealth. WE are taught to share but why share if we can all be rich? Its obvious to me that scripture doesn't promise wealth.