BK1110 Posted February 15, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 87 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 6,874 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 9,612 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/18/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/10/1986 Share Posted February 15, 2021 2 minutes ago, LearningToLetGo said: Do we really know who comprises the divine council? Might it be like a court hearing, e.g. open to the public at large? This is my thinking. Most commentaries I've seen also point this out. David Guzik's commentary: "On His right hand and on His left: Since the right hand was the place of favor, this may indicate that God spoke to the combined host of heaven, both faithful and fallen angelic beings." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uber Genius Posted February 16, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 657 Content Per Day: 0.33 Reputation: 244 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 16, 2021 3 hours ago, Willa said: A lying spirit is an evil spirit because Satan is the father of lies. God permitted them to be in the mouths of false prophets just as he permitted satan to afflict God within the limits given. True! But that is not the individual in this passage who is lying. So There are lying spirits AND at least one example of a member of the heavenly divine council in good standing lying. Did you check the context of the passage as I suggested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uber Genius Posted February 16, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 657 Content Per Day: 0.33 Reputation: 244 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 16, 2021 3 hours ago, BK1110 said: I also think there could be a component of thinking "what's wrong for us is also wrong for God" here Great point. What I have said 5 hours ago to Debra: "I think we have hyperbole in the first passage about God not lying. That it was getting at the truth-telling nature of God. But that he wasn't constrained by that aspect, apparently, and searching his own moral nature determined that there are cases that allow him, a morally perfect being, to lie without impugning his moral perfection." So it is certainly the case that God's moral command to humans are not always necessary restrictions or duties for God. We operate out of revealed moral commands found in scripture and in our conscience. Particularly, all humans have moral intuition preprogrammed by God. So an example would be I am prohibited from mudering my enemy. God I see not. He is the creator and has certain rights I don't have. So what we now have to do is ask is truth-telling a moral perfection that is contingent, that is to say, not necessarily required of God based on the particular situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uber Genius Posted February 16, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 657 Content Per Day: 0.33 Reputation: 244 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 16, 2021 3 hours ago, LearningToLetGo said: Do we really know who comprises the divine council? Might it be like a court hearing, e.g. open to the public at large? Yes. We get added into that divine council as per Rev. 2! We see many intertestimental books writing about it including most of 1 Enoch. 7 and following. Daniel 7, psalm 82, 89, and a rebellion of same in Gen 5 1-4 I think. And yes we see specific individuals of the heavenly host are called to share in governing. One book on the subject is called, "The Unseen Realm," by Dr. M. Heiser. There are thousands of scholarly articles on The Divine Council over the last couple centuries. The book above has over 500 references. Unfortunately Evangelical scholarship is almost non-existent. Heiser is one of the few. Most commentaries have no idea about it and just make stuff up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uber Genius Posted February 16, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 657 Content Per Day: 0.33 Reputation: 244 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 16, 2021 Lol. Whether an evil spirit is invited to help God govern or not doesn't matter here. While I think people are dismissing the context, let's assume for argument's sake, An evil spirit steps forward and offers God to tell a lie. GOd says, "That will work, go lie." How have we in any way addressed the conundrum? God is always free to reject immoral plans by immoral agents! We still have to determine whether God can lie just like he can murder. He is the author of life and has sovereignty over life so we don't call it murder. It seems that lying would fall into and easier case to justify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted February 16, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.80 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 16, 2021 God can not lie because of His Holiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BK1110 Posted February 16, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 87 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 6,874 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 9,612 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/18/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/10/1986 Share Posted February 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Uber Genius said: Lol. Whether an evil spirit is invited to help God govern or not doesn't matter here. While I think people are dismissing the context, let's assume for argument's sake, An evil spirit steps forward and offers God to tell a lie. GOd says, "That will work, go lie." How have we in any way addressed the conundrum? God is always free to reject immoral plans by immoral agents! We still have to determine whether God can lie just like he can murder. He is the author of life and has sovereignty over life so we don't call it murder. It seems that lying would fall into and easier case to justify. Can he murder? What do you mean by "murder" exactly? You don't call a state executing a criminal a "murder," right? When God takes a life, I would argue it isn't murder because he is perfectly just and perfectly within his rights to pass judgement. It's murder for us if we do the same, even if the person deserved it for whatever reason, because we are not God and do not have those rights and characteristics. This goes back to a few posts ago again. To try to sum things up so far, can we agree on the following points? 1. God did not himself lie in 1 Kings 22. A spirit, whether good or evil, did. 2. The spirit was the first one to bring up lying. God did not stop the spirit and agreed to allow it to lie. 3. Some things that would either sometimes or always be sin for us are not sin for God. If we can agree on those then I guess the question would be twofold; is lying one of the things that falls into the category of point #3, and if so, do God's actions in regards to points #1 and #2 constitute lying (are they just as bad as if God lied himself). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regenerated-Adult Posted February 16, 2021 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 196 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 53 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted February 16, 2021 Doesn't the Bible say somewhere that God cannot lie? Another example of a contradiction apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uber Genius Posted February 16, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 657 Content Per Day: 0.33 Reputation: 244 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 16, 2021 3 hours ago, Regenerated-Adult said: Doesn't the Bible say somewhere that God cannot lie? Another example of a contradiction apparently. Please read opening post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regenerated-Adult Posted February 16, 2021 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 196 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 53 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted February 16, 2021 45 minutes ago, Uber Genius said: Please read opening post. God put a lying spirit in the mouths of false prophets to teach you that atheism is false. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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