Uber Genius Posted February 11, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 657 Content Per Day: 0.33 Reputation: 244 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2021 God cannot lie. "19God is not a man, that He should lie, or a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speakand not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?" Numbers 23:19 God sends a lying spirit. "20and the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another.21Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will entice him.’22And the LORD said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ 23Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you.” 1 Kings 22:20-23 So God can't lie but he can use agents to lie? Note: I'm looking for thoughtful discussion here, not cutting and pasting someone else's thoughtful discussion. Although that method can be helpful I could do that myself if that was all I was interested in finding out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BK1110 Posted February 11, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 87 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 6,873 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 9,611 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/18/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/10/1986 Share Posted February 11, 2021 I wouldn't see God's use of a lying spirit to accomplish his will and justice as any different from his use of other evil/evil people to do so. God works all things for good. Ahab's death was a long time coming after a life of vile sin. Seems similar to God's hardening of Pharaoh's heart. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uber Genius Posted February 12, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 657 Content Per Day: 0.33 Reputation: 244 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 12, 2021 1 hour ago, BK1110 said: I wouldn't see God's use of a lying spirit to accomplish his will and justice as any different from his use of other evil/evil people to do so. God works all things for good. Ahab's death was a long time coming after a life of vile sin. Seems similar to God's hardening of Pharaoh's heart. So im not following, God hardening Pharoah's heart, is similar to him telling a member of the heavenly host to go lie? In one case we have an evil man who has done much wrong before and God hastens his choice but perhaps didn't change it. In the other case one God is destroying the ability to trust prophets, maybe they were already false prophets but wouldn't they be surprised to finally hear from the lord? And when they finally do it is a lie. I do see the parallel in that both are judgement narratives. Just surprised because I never had a verse saying "God can't harden a man's heart to have him do evil more quickly than his original plan. So the hardening, although equally confusing (on Luther's freedom destroying marionette version of the story God is unapologetically the author of evil), doesn't seem to violate God's nature, where the lying seems to impugn God's moral perfection. God's ethic allows for ends justifying the means? I'm not saying this is wrong, he is not a man, he is sovereign and can make choices we can't. But if he is willing to lie to prophets in the case of Ahab, where else might he be lying to prophets? And how would they know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayne Posted February 12, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 107 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,820 Content Per Day: 1.29 Reputation: 4,806 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted February 12, 2021 God is merely using what King Ahab will understand - lies. God has sent prophet after prophet with the truth and Ahab rejects it. The Bible says he was a horrible king - horrible as in wicked. And that he thought evil and sin were a "trivial" thing. Being God's enemy meant nothing to him. He didn't care. He was so horrible that he married a woman from another nation who was literally a devil-worshipper. Jezebel. You read things about her and people call her the "bad girl" of the Bible. That doesn't even begin to describe her. She was demonic woman coming from a demonic family. Ahab converted to Baal worship and denied and defied God. God isn't advancing or encouraging lying. He is simply making use of a lying spirit as that is the only thing King Ahab responds to. God is sovereign over everything. Angels, demons, evil spirits, good spirits - all of it. And that lying spirit - already evil on its own will perish forever just Ahab. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddy D. Mouse Posted February 12, 2021 Group: Junior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 108 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted February 12, 2021 Ube - I seem to remember a prophet named Michaiah being sarcastic and saying for a king to go up into battle - that God would give him victory; and actually Michaiah was just making fun of him. A quasi-case of God lying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddy D. Mouse Posted February 12, 2021 Group: Junior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 108 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted February 12, 2021 1Ki 22:15 So he came to the king. And the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go against Ramothgilead to battle, or shall we forbear? And he answered him, Go, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the hand of the king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BK1110 Posted February 12, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 87 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 6,873 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 9,611 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/18/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/10/1986 Share Posted February 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Uber Genius said: So im not following, God hardening Pharoah's heart, is similar to him telling a member of the heavenly host to go lie? In one case we have an evil man who has done much wrong before and God hastens his choice but perhaps didn't change it. In the other case one God is destroying the ability to trust prophets, maybe they were already false prophets but wouldn't they be surprised to finally hear from the lord? And when they finally do it is a lie. I do see the parallel in that both are judgement narratives. Just surprised because I never had a verse saying "God can't harden a man's heart to have him do evil more quickly than his original plan. So the hardening, although equally confusing (on Luther's freedom destroying marionette version of the story God is unapologetically the author of evil), doesn't seem to violate God's nature, where the lying seems to impugn God's moral perfection. God's ethic allows for ends justifying the means? I'm not saying this is wrong, he is not a man, he is sovereign and can make choices we can't. But if he is willing to lie to prophets in the case of Ahab, where else might he be lying to prophets? And how would they know? As R.C. Sproul said, there are no rogue molecules. God is in control of absolutely everyone and everything. Total sovereignty. But I also notice a few things; 1. The Lord did not initiate the lying. The Lord called for one of the heavenly host to entice Ahab. When the spirit came forward and offered to do so, the Lord asked how it planned to do it, and the spirit said that lying was it's own plan. The Lord the agreed to it. I think it would be twisting the wording to say that the Lord commanded or even requested a spirit to lie. He simply allowed it, not unlike allowing Satan to strike Job's property, family, and finally his own health. 2. The Lord had Micaiah go an warn Ahab about all of it. Gave him all the details even, a behind-the-scenes look at God's plan. One final chance to turn and follow God's word. Ahab still refused, and it cost him his life. Micaiah says that the Lord put the spirit in the mouth of the prophets, but also that it was the spirit that came up with the lying idea (though of course God knew it would). This really reminds me again of Job; it teaches both that Satan is responsible for the afflicting, but that it was God who is ultimately responsible, and it does not say that God is wrong to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted February 12, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,242 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,658 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted February 12, 2021 3 hours ago, Uber Genius said: is similar to him telling a member of the heavenly host to go lie? No, that would be not the heavenly hose but one of satan's minions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael37 Posted February 12, 2021 Group: Servant Followers: 21 Topic Count: 241 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 6,948 Content Per Day: 3.27 Reputation: 4,869 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted February 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Willa said: No, that would be not the heavenly hose but one of satan's minions. Heavenly Hose . . .from which we get rain perhaps. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 12, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,193 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,469 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 12, 2021 The Bible clearly states God has no part with darkness 1 John 1:5-7 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. KJV In fact when we examine the Scripture of God's Holiness we find He will not even look upon it as giving it place in His eternity but has confined it to itself in destruction Hab 1:13 13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he? KJV These boundaries are set so that we may understand the Holiness of God through acceptance of Scripture... sin, evil desire, fruit of taking pleasure in a wrong way, is not of God but of the perversion of lie... so that these things have no part with God and He has placed judgment of in hell in the eternity... As we examine the outcome, here, of sin we see judgment is meaded out even in the practice of such for it has fruit of destruction from it's very source! So those who practice sin end in very destructive areas of this creation as witness it has no part of intentional life that God ordained in the beginning... So what we see is God allowing evil to take evil to evil so that judgment will come to as the fruit of itself... God has established His Way through His Son and no sin has part with that Way nor will it have remembrance! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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