God is a Tyrant!?

[artsylady]

How is Satan a Tyrant?

Satan seeks to kill, steal and destroy. He does this through lies and manipulation.

Did Satan demand worship in exchange for eternal life?

No. All he wants to rob us of eternal life, although there are some who do choose to worship him.

Did Satan murder every living creature by flooding the earth?

No. Satan influenced people toward evil, destroying God's much better plan for humankind.

Did Satan require blood sacrifices in exchange for forgiveness?

No, satan doesn't or cannot offer forgiveness. He offers hell, lies and manipulation.

And what are you basing your belief on that Satan was prideful or had anything to do with death or the destruction of the world?

I know you're talking to someone else, but I base my belief in satan's pride and evil intent on the Biblical account. He wants us all to bypass eternal life in heaven for torment in hell, or at least gather as many as possible to join him there.

Do you think we're being too hard on him?

[other one]

.....

[artsylady]

Actually, you're basing your belief of Satan on christian doctrine,

Does that surprise you?

because the only reference to Satan in the Old Testament, Job 1-2 and Zechariah 3:1-2. describes him as a member of the heavenly court, whose basic duty was to 'accuse' human beings before God. He was clearly not an enemy of God or the leader of the demonic forces of evil, as he becomes later in christian doctrine.

You're going to have to read the whole Bible in order to get the whole context of who he is and what is he all about. From Genesis to Revelation there are mentions of him.

Obviously just from these verses above alone, it's clear he's an adversary of God but I guess you don't see that.

Nowhere in the Old Testament is Satan ever referred to as the evil one. Jews are strict monotheist and would never entertain a belief in an opposition to God.

This isn't a Jewish board. This is a Christian board.

[artsylady]

Wow, that's a whole lot of insight into Satan! I wonder though...

There is a whole lot of insight into satan if you want to look at it. I don't have time to write a book here.

What is Satan doing with all those souls? Obviously his recruiting posters don't have us humans beating down the doors to get into hell "come to hell it's a really hot place" or "Hell, eternal suffering and all that other cool stuff-> this way" how about "Hell, the demons choice thumbsup.gif !!"

Oh no, he's more clever and deceitful than that. His slogans are "God doesn't exist" "the Bible is a myth" "satan doesn't exist" - that kind of thing. Once again, it's not about truth - he's about lies and manipulation.

First I'd like to point out that I have seen no evidence of the existence for God therefore I can not believe in the existence of Satan either. Can't have one without the other right! thumbsup.gif

Right.

OK, so God creates these beings (Angels) to act as servants and intermediaries as suggested by the Bible. Then the most powerful of them, for some reason decides that spending eternity in paradise with his loving creator just isn't good enough. He not only rebels against God but he persuades about half of the other Angels that God ain't so great.

God decides that he can't have a rebellion in heaven so he casts them all out of heaven. But where to? God creates Hell as a nice place for these "fallen Angels" and they go willingly.

No, they don't go willingly and there is 1/3 of them, not half. The struggle began with a need for power and control. Ever feel the need for that? Surely this concept does not escape you. Divisions in companies, tribes, politics happens every day.

So far God has created a race of imperfect beings who have knowledge of Good and Evil and half of them choose Evil over spending eternity in paradise with God. Hmm...

I would say the vast majority 'choose' it because they don't beleive in it at all. They fall into the trap of lies and deceit.

Lets not forget that instead of the almighty God simply destroying these evil creatures (which he created...flawed) which God should be able to do, he creates a place of their own for them and casts them out of heaven. Unfortunately Hell is accessible to earth and Satan gets to run rampant tempting all of the rest of Gods (flawed) creations.

Free will is what it's all about. Have you ever had a friendship or relationship where free will was not a factor? Have you ever had a friendship where there was no way evil could enter into it?

But why would Satan do this? Does Satan want followers? obviously, he coaxed a bunch of Angels to follow him right? So what could Satan possibly offer that was better than what God was offering?

What can satan offer? Lies. Lies about money, wealth, power, fame. Lies that can keep one from seeking God. These lies sound pretty good in the earthly realm, especially if you can beleive the major lies like "God doesn't exist".

Why is Satan even a threat to God? Didn't God see all this coming before he created these Angels? Didn't God see that they would rebel and throw a wrench into his works?

God: "well lets see this whole thing is going to be screwed up with fallen angels and Adam and Eve disobeying and there is going to be a whole lot of pain and suffering of my children and I'm gonna have to wipe all of them out in a flood (except a handful) but that won't fix anyway so then I'm gonna have to pick some of them to favor so that they can kill each other and I'm gonna have to try really hard to convince my own children that I exist by constantly wiping out cities and destroying things and then I'll have to go down there as a man for about 30 years so they can kill me in a gruesome ritual. Of course I'm not going to do that to fix things, that'll just be a way for me to forgive all their sins. But only if they believe I exist. All the while my child Satan and his bunch will be messing with them... Ah what the hay, sounds like fun."

I don't know. It's questions like these where my faith plays a big role. The questions surrounding the heavenly realms and such. As far as the questions surrounding the earthly realm, like creation, human spirits, evil and good, prophesy, psychics, aliens, choices and a whole host of other items all have very good answers through a Christian persective.

God didn't give us ALL The answers. That is true. Had he given us all the answers, the Bible would be too long for anyone to ever read.

This is the short version of how I view all of this. Seems a bit odd, wouldn't you say? noidea.gif

Given the other side - where we can beleive that everything in the world was created accidentally and through billions of series of fortunate accidents we have everything on earth we see today? Given that there would be no answers as to where evil comes from - why a man goes shooting up a kindergarten class of children he doesn't even know? Given that there would be no answers as to why some people are happy, some are depressed, some have no hope and others are full of hope? Given that we there would be no answers as to why humans seem to be spiritual and full of beliefs in contacts with aliens, ghosts, etc? Given that there would be no justice ever given for people like Hitler? Given that a lunatic named Jesus died a painful death and his name and followers live on? And that every apostle close to him also died painful deaths to cover up such a lie that he was the son of God and that people still die for this name today?

I'm sorry, but I don't know how you do it. Christianity can answer so many things yet athiesm answers so very little . The questions you have asked are so small in comparison to the truth of the things that we do know.

[IronyLaughsatReason]

Artsylady,

Q

What do you think of Christianity ? Did you consider becoming a Christian ?

A

My association with Christians dates from 1889 and there was a time in my life when I sincerely considered Christianity as my religion. In my pursuit, I met many a scholars and thinkers, who while having a profound effect on me, were not able to convince me. Although I admire much in Christianity, I am unable to identify myself with the orthodox Christianity. I must tell you in all humility that Hinduism, as I know it, entirely satisfies my soul, and fills my whole being.

The missionaries come to India thinking that they come to a land of heathen, of idolaters, of men who do not know God. My own experiences all over India have been on the contrary. An average Indian is as much a seeker after truth as the Christian missionaries are, possibly more so.

Please do not flatter yourselves with the belief that a mere recital of that celebrated verse in St. John makes a man Christian. If I have read the Bible correctly, I know many men who have never known the name of Jesus Christ, men who have even rejected the official interpretations of Christianity, but would nevertheless, if Jesus came in our midst today in the flesh, be probably owned by him more than many of us. My position is that it does not matter what faith you practice, as long as the soul longs for truth.

WORDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GANDHI

He didn't openly denounce Christ, he was actually an admirer of Christ. Of the three pictures that hung in his room, one was of Jesus Christ. But he did not die Christian. You misinterpreted what i was saying. I do not denounce Jesus Christ. I have the utmost respect for him. I denounce Christians who twist the words. I denounce Christians who enjoy telling people that they are better because they are Christian. I denonce Christians who enjoy telling people that they are going to hell because they are not Christian.

There are countless other figures who may not of denounced Christ, but openly questioned him, and contemplated whether the reality of him being the son of god was true. People who were actually Christian themselves. Shakspeare for example.

We could name great thinkers that came before Christ. No they did not openly denounce him for the obvious, but they did not die Christian. Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle to name a few. You should read some of the writings that came before the bible. They are filled with just as much wisdom as the bible. The life of Socrates actually slightly mirrors that of Jesus. Both were persecuted because they spoke out against what was the common belief at that time.

I think you were trying to bait me into naming Nietcheze, who you could easily tear down, but i dare you to tear down Gandhi.(Eventhough i think Nietcheze was a great man)

My prior post may have seemed harsh, but i was merely going for shock value.

[artsylady]

Irony: I don't think I asked you the question but since you addressed me I'll respond.

My association with Christians dates from 1889 and there was a time in my life when I sincerely considered Christianity as my religion.

Unless you beleive in past lives, I hope you meant 1989.

In my pursuit, I met many a scholars and thinkers, who while having a profound effect on me, were not able to convince me. Although I admire much in Christianity, I am unable to identify myself with the orthodox Christianity. I must tell you in all humility that Hinduism, as I know it, entirely satisfies my soul, and fills my whole being.

Are you sure you are completely satisfied? I might respectfully ask why you're here then.

The missionaries come to India thinking that they come to a land of heathen, of idolaters, of men who do not know God. My own experiences all over India have been on the contrary. An average Indian is as much a seeker after truth as the Christian missionaries are, possibly more so.

I fully agree with you that Indians are also seekers of truth. I actually believe all of us are spirtual beings and many of us seek truth - Indians certainly included.

Please do not flatter yourselves with the belief that a mere recital of that celebrated verse in St. John makes a man Christian. If I have read the Bible correctly, I know many men who have never known the name of Jesus Christ, men who have even rejected the official interpretations of Christianity, but would nevertheless, if Jesus came in our midst today in the flesh, be probably owned by him more than many of us. My position is that it does not matter what faith you practice, as long as the soul longs for truth.

I would disagree on some parts here. I agree that reciting a verse doesn't make you a Christian. I would disagree that it doesn't matter what position you take as long as your soul longs for truth. That would make Jesus a liar. Do you believe he lied?

WORDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GANDHI

He didn't openly denounce Christ, he was actually an admirer of Christ. Of the three pictures that hung in his room, one was of Jesus Christ. But he did not die Christian. You misinterpreted what i was saying. I do not denounce Jesus Christ. I have the utmost respect for him. I denounce Christians who twist the words. I denounce Christians who enjoy telling people that they are better because they are Christian. I denonce Christians who enjoy telling people that they are going to hell because they are not Christian.

Again, this wasn't my discussion with you but if I have time I'll try to look this discussion up and comment. I'm expecting company any minute so ..... not sure.

About Christians enjoying telling you that you are going to hell? I don't know Christians like that. "Love does not delight in evil", so those Christians are way off base.

There are countless other figures who may not of denounced Christ, but openly questioned him, and contemplated whether the reality of him being the son of god was true. People who were actually Christian themselves. Shakspeare for example.

I don't think it's wrong for even a Christian to have a healthy skepticism or I don't think it's wrong for a Christian to have doubts. When I've had doubts and took them to God, he helped me overcome these doubts. A Christian's relationship with God should be an honest one. If I had doubts about my spouse, I should also be able to ask him about these doubts and if he is a kind and loving spouse, he'll gently help me calm the doubts and show me where the doubts are unfounded. Same kind of idea.

stian. Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle to name a few. You should read some of the writings that came before the bible.

Sorry I cut off part of this.

These writings did not come before the Bible. The words of Genesis are the first recorded words of humans (unless you beleive those who think the Sumarian writings were first) If I did decide to believe the Sumerian writings came first based on evidence, it wouldn't change anything.

In regards to philosphers, of the 57 (I think?) of those who were considered "the Great Philosphers", the vast majority (again, I'm thinking here - 50?) were Christians.

They are filled with just as much wisdom as the bible. The life of Socrates actually slightly mirrors that of Jesus. Both were persecuted because they spoke out against what was the common belief at that time.

But Socrates was just a great writer. Jesus claimed to be God, have the ability to forgive sins, and was resurrected after death. His arrival on earth was also preceeded by hundreds of prophesies spanning hundreds of years by a number of prophets who did not know each other or live during the same time period.

I think you were trying to bait me into naming Nietcheze, who you could easily tear down, but i dare you to tear down Gandhi.(Eventhough i think Nietcheze was a great man)

Okay, here i think the discussion was meant for me. I'll get back to you on that.

My prior post may have seemed harsh, but i was merely going for shock value.

Okay.

[artsylady]

He didn't openly denounce Christ, he was actually an admirer of Christ. Of the three pictures that hung in his room, one was of Jesus Christ.

Before I do anything else, do you know who the other 2 pictures were of?

[artsylady]

Can you name a person that we all know (a historic figure, celebrity, what have you) who is truly honest, caring, loving, compassionate, givine and friendly so we can take a further look at this? This person you name for this arguments sake would have to be dead already and have been known to publicly renounce Christ.

Irony: This is my original question, wherein I wanted to know of a person with all of these qualities who was obviously not a Christian, and therefore for the sake of the debate, would obviously, according to scripture, not be allowed entrance into heaven. If Ghandi is an example and already you've said that he had a picture of Christ in his room, was admirer of Christ, and did not denounce him, how do we know his heart and how do we know that he was not a Christian. Just given the things that you've stated here, I wonder if he was a Christian in his heart of hearts. Only God would know that but these things do make you wonder. And all of the 'fruits' are there as well.

[artsylady]

I have found too many things that make me wonder if Gandhi was a Christian. I found out the other two pictures did not belong to religious figures. Under the picture of Christ, it said "he is our peace" The also found Christian books and the gospel of John in his belongings when he died. He definitely had many quotes about his belief in Jesus and his admiration. As well, his treatment of women goes against Hinduism and he was murdered by a Hindu.

I definitely don't think he fits the profile of the person you say according to Christianity would not go to heaven.

back later.

[Scarletprayers]

Most of those "groups" that God ordered Israel to kill didn't suffer very much from any of the niceties of polite society as we know it.