Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[not an echo]

On 4/14/2021 at 8:29 PM, Da Puppers said:

On 4/14/2021 at 1:29 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Da Puppers,

I can kinda see where you are coming from, but in the context of my complete OP, I believe my point is clear.  Perhaps it will help though, if I clarify a little further.

I CAPPED, bolded, and underlined what I did---THE LAST Trump---to emphasize how this trumpet is in a category all by itself.  It is not merely the last trumpet (note no emphasis) in a series of seven.

Said another way, there is going to be The Trump of God, which is THE LAST Trump.  Then, there is going to be the sounding of seven trumpets, the seventh being the last trumpet in the seven trumpet series (of course).

I think where the misunderstanding may arise is that I am not in agreement with the following statement that you made, if I am understanding you correctly: "It's clear from verse 15, that this 7th Trumpet, (the coming of the kingdom)  is the same as the last trumpet of 1Cor15," 

It seems to me that you have two different times for the rewarding the righteous,  those that fear God's name... once at the Rapture and then later at the 7th Trumpet. 

 

[Rev 11:18b]

...and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great...

Is that not what happens at the "last trumpet"

1Co 15:53 KJV For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

  when the dead are raised to inherit incorruption and "WE", the living mortals, put on immortality, AS PER 1COR15?   Does the "time" that the dead,  namely, those that fear God, begin BEFORE the 7th Trumpet sounds and proclaims "the time to judge the dead"?   After all, at least three groups are distinguished... servants(prophets), saints,  and those that fear God's name [small & great] ?  Surely,  we fall into one of those groups.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Hello Da Puppers,

All that are raptured will certainly "put on immortality" (I Cor. 15:53), but again, this will happen at the opening of the 6th Seal.  In the period heralded by the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 11:15-19/chps. 12-20), among other things, Christ's Millennial Reign will take place (Rev. 20:1-6), at which time all of the saved will certainly be rewarded. 

[Diaste]

On 4/16/2021 at 9:16 PM, not an echo said:

 

When I think of The Last Trump, or The Trump of God, I think of the last trumpet calling an assembly, and it will be the immediate assembly of the gathered or caught up Christians at the time of the rapture.  When I think of the 7th Trumpet, I think of the last trumpet sounding an alarm.  There is no immediate assembly with the sounding of this trumpet.  However, there will be an assembly connected with the period of which the 7th Trumpet is a herald---the assembly of the enemies of the Lord for the Battle of Armageddon (e.g., Rev. 16:16; 19:19).

I don't know if what we think carries much weight. 

"There is no immediate assembly with the sounding of this trumpet." We don't know this. Scripture does not prohibit or demand the above. More info is needed.

[Diaste]

On 4/16/2021 at 9:50 PM, not an echo said:

The 7th Trumpet is indeed the last trumpet sounded in the series of the seven trumpets spoken of in The Revelation.  But, it is not The Trump of God spoken of by Paul in I Thessalonians 4:16.  Neither is it The Last Trump spoken of by Paul in I Corinthians 15:52.  Neither is it the "great sound of a trumpet" spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24:31,

Oh? Is there scripture confirming this? I don't see anything written annulling the idea that all three descriptions can be the same trump. The 7th trump is at least A trump of God and it is clearly A last trump. Don't have to swim a raging torrent to come to this conclusion.

On 4/16/2021 at 9:50 PM, not an echo said:

 

which will be sounded with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Efforts to conflate the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet are just never going to hold, and for good reason---they do not dovetail.

They don't? Is there a written prohibition?

On 4/16/2021 at 9:50 PM, not an echo said:

 

  A glaring example that presently comes to mind is the utter lack of any hint of normalcy prior to the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. 

Not sure how this is a proof. Are you saying that the only time the 7th trump can sound is under a condition of 'normalcy' and that it could never at any other time, under any other condition, or set of conditions, sound?

On 4/16/2021 at 9:50 PM, not an echo said:

As nicely as I know how to put it, any acceptance of what you continue to put forth would be tantamount to accepting that the flood was raging as Noah and the rest were trying to board the ark.

That wouldn't fit anyway as we know Noah didn't board the ark under those conditions as the opposite is in fact recorded.

The record of note here is what the Lord Most High says about the end and that's all we can know. 

[Diaste]

On 4/16/2021 at 10:56 AM, not an echo said:

But Diaste, my friend, I'm doing nothing more than what Jesus did with parables.  I learned this teaching tool from our Lord, and I love it.  I don't know why you consistently seem to be annoyed by the use of illustrations.  I'm reminded of the parable, "The legs of the lame are not equal:  so is a parable in the mouth of fools" (Pro. 26:7).  I could gather that you feel that my parables/illustrations are not being rightly used, but I would beg to differ.  My encouragement would be for you to also use Jesus' teaching tool (rightly, of course), so that I might be able to be see what you feel to be more the truth, for to this point, I'm not even in the proximity.  There is no semblance of desperation with me, only a desire to show forth the truths that I believe God has opened my eyes to in my study of His Word.  Now, I am kinda desperate for time!  It seems that I am always having to re-prioritize, so that I can come up with time for this or that, if you know what I mean. 

Got to go, but I'll be back...Well, the Good Lord willing and the creeks don't rise (James 4:15)!

I have no problems with illustrations, they can help. When I don't feel they are appropriate is when they replace instead of enhance. There is a plethora of fact in the text concerning this topic, few delivered in parables which are an illustration of a truth, and until the facts are fully fleshed out I don't see the need to introduce literary or rhetorical devices.

The part of the discourse from 24:32-51 isn't parable but direct association of a common occurrence to enhance the lesson. It's apt, concise and powerful. I don't always see that in every illustration.

 

[not an echo]

On 4/17/2021 at 11:31 AM, Da Puppers said:

On 4/17/2021 at 12:31 AM, not an echo said:

Hello Da Puppers,

All that are raptured will certainly "put on immortality" (I Cor. 15:53), but again, this will happen at the opening of the 6th Seal.  In the period heralded by the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 11:15-19/chps. 12-20), among other things, Christ's Millennial Reign will take place (Rev. 20:1-6), at which time all of the saved will certainly be rewarded. 

Let me reiterate.   You are precluding the "time" that the dead are to be judged, [at the 7th Trumpet]  by the [event of the] Rapture at the time of the 6th seal, which occurs before the 7th Trumpet. 

Consider this,  by distinguishing the Trump of God from [either] the 7th or last trumpet,  of 1Cor15, the inferred quickness of the Rapture (in the twinkling of an eye), is also removed.  [What other scriptural evidence can be provided that the event(s) of 1Thess4 takes place in the twinkling of an eye, i.e., quickly?  I can't think of any.  Can you? ]

With that being said,  the quickness of the Rapture of 1Thess4 is only an implied concept.   In fact,  1Thess4 says that ONLY those that are alive and remain will be caught up, harpazoed, to meet the dead in Christ in the air.   There is nothing in 1Thess4 to indicate that the living (and remain) meet the dead in immediate fashion.    Look again at:

2Ti 4:1 KJV I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

I know you recognize the later arrival of the kingdom relative to the Rapture.   Paul gives us a dual timestamp for judging the quick and the dead... at his appearing and his kingdom.   I ask you,  "is this dual timestamp for both, the living AND the dead?  Or could there be an individualized fulfilment of each?   If the living are judged (resurrected)  at the same time as the dead in Christ in 1Thess4,  then the "time" for the dead to be judged (in Rev 11) is actually preceded by the time of the "Rapture" [of the living AND dead].  Then,  by the dual nature of 2Tim4:1, Rev 11:15 becomes meaningless.  

The word used by Paul in Romans 10:9,10 (that God "raised" Christ from the dead)  is not the same word used to describe the dead in Christ "rising" first in 1Thess4.  [EDITED TO ADD: "if we believe that Christ died and ROSE again,  is also anistemi].Egeiro is used in Romans 10.  Anistemi is used in 1Thess4.   Each word has a different symbolic connotation, i.e., a different kind of raising is involved.   This is evident from how they are used in the Gospels.   Egeiro is used to symbolize raising some one from the "sleep of death".  Anistemi is used to symbolize an authoritative rise in power.  When Jesus ascended/ rose to the Father,  AFTER Mary Magdalene met Jesus on resurrection morning (after the angels at the tomb had proclaimed that He is risen/ egeiro), this is,  according to Hebrews 5, when God said to Jesus,  "TODAY,  I have begotten thee,  you art my Son", authoritatively conveying to Jesus the everlasting priesthood. 

Heb 5:5-6 KJV ⁵ So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. ⁶ As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Jesus "rose" to be our high priest,  AFTER he rose/ egeiro from the dead.   This is borne out rather clearly in Mark 16:9-16, where it describes how Jesus ROSE/ anistemi from the dead.   He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, and afterward "appeared in another form" to the 2 Emmaus disciples later that day.   Eventually,  Jesus appeared that same day to the disciples in Jerusalem,  and said to them (from the three appearances of Jesus to the disciples found in John 20,21) "receive you the Holy Ghost".  This demonstrates his authority as our high priest to give the gifts of the Holy Ghost,  [see Eph 4:7ff, that Jesus was given (rose to) when he ascended up on high.]

Similar thoughts are conveyed by Peter in Acts 2, and Paul in Acts 13, when Jesus rose/ ascended to sit upon the throne of David.   Christ rose to sit on the throne of David,  when his soul was not left in hell, i.e., he saw no corruption.   "For David is not ascended to sit at God's right hand", but Christ sits there,  via, his ascension to the Father. 

Christ rose from the dead at the resurrection.(egeiro)  Then he rose from the dead to sit at God's right hand (anistemi).  The dead in Christ shall rise/ anistemi first, at his appearing.   Afterward,  those who are alive and remain shall put on immortality at the last trumpet,  when the "kingdom of his Christ shall come".

Rev 11:15 KJV And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I think that it is  illegitimately inferred that the "dead in Christ" shall be afforded immortality when the Trump of God shall sound.   Think about it.  Michael, the archangel,  only stands up at the timing of the 6th seal when Satan and the stars of heaven are cast out.  

1Th 4:16 KJV For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Hello Da Puppers,

I would like to say first of all that I appreciate your manner, and I can also appreciate your concern over how what is revealed in Scripture should be understood.  I believe we would all freely admit that the study of Scripture can get quite involved.  But, isn't it so very rewarding!  I have often said that the Bible is like the ocean:

So shallow in lots of places that even little children can splash around and have lots of fun in it,

but also so deep in lots of places that even world class divers will never be able to search out all its vastness.

After having thought on your replies, I think we may be able to have a more fruitful discussion if you understand some of the very basics of how I understand the Seven Sealed Book.  I'm not meaning to stray off the subject of my thread.  What I am going to share has just been a help to me in reconciling questions about the trumpets that so many have. 

According to the understanding that I have arrived at and have been settled on for quite some time, the Seven Sealed Book could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD.  This perspective alone has been a great help to me in the understanding of much that Scripture has to say about the last days.  Consider:

THE FRONT COVER OF THE BOOK---With the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17), we see a lot that fits with what Jesus spoke of connected with the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:29-31).  Also connected hard with this event is the prophecy of Joel's that Peter quoted on the Day of Pentecost, especially the part that reads, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood BEFORE that great and notable Day of the Lord come" (Acts 2:20).  I'm going to suppose that you will agree that this piece of our prophetic puzzle fits with the opening of the 6th Seal and the cry of the world at that time, "For the great day of His wrath is come;  and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:17).

Back for a moment to my proposal that the Seven Sealed Book could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD---I consider the opening of the 6th Seal as taking place the day that the cover of this book is opened, if you will.  But (it will be asked), what about the 7th Seal?  Answer:  It is removed later, the same day that the 6th Seal is removed, meaning, THE DAY OF THE LORD "is come" (Rev. 6:17) indeed.  Of course, the front cover of the book has seven seals, but, we can discuss all that later...perhaps in another thread.

THE BACK COVER OF THE BOOK---In Peter's second epistle, chapter 3, it reads thus, and note my clarifying comments:

 10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;  IN THE WHICH (in the period, era, or time of which) the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (compare with Rev. 20:11 and 21:1)

Note also two verses further...

 12  Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, WHEREIN (again, in the period, era, or time of which) the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?  (again, compare with Rev. 20:11 and 21:1)

For the sake of clarification, I would suggest that the last chapter of the Seven Sealed Book could rightly be entitled, THE LAST JUDGMENT, for that is what Revelation 20:11-15 concerns.  According to my understanding, this will mark the end of the Day of the Lord.  If you can see a fitting title for the Seven Sealed Book as being THE DAY OF THE LORD, I believe a fitting summary for the back cover ("the backside"/Rev. 5:1), would be something like this:

"For the great day of His wrath is come;

And who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:17)

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life

was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)

THE CONTENTS OF THE BOOK---This would include everything between the two covers.  In other words, everything from Revelation 8:1b through Revelation 20:15.  In other words, everything within the covers of the book is part of the Day of the Lord.

At this point, I would first of all ask if you can see this?  If so, I would ask if this understanding helps you to see how I may see things as I do.  If so, we are on our way.  If not, I will continue a little further.  And, somewhere down this path ,  we will end up at a place where we can look at those trumpets again.

Please understand that the above is not something that I am a mean ole dogmatic about.  I just consider it as an illustration that I have found to be quite helpful, so, I am sharing it.  Hope you find it to be of some help...

Edited February 3, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 4/18/2021 at 7:08 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/16/2021 at 10:16 PM, not an echo said:

 

When I think of The Last Trump, or The Trump of God, I think of the last trumpet calling an assembly, and it will be the immediate assembly of the gathered or caught up Christians at the time of the rapture.  When I think of the 7th Trumpet, I think of the last trumpet sounding an alarm.  There is no immediate assembly with the sounding of this trumpet.  However, there will be an assembly connected with the period of which the 7th Trumpet is a herald---the assembly of the enemies of the Lord for the Battle of Armageddon (e.g., Rev. 16:16; 19:19).

I don't know if what we think carries much weight. 

"There is no immediate assembly with the sounding of this trumpet." We don't know this. Scripture does not prohibit or demand the above. More info is needed.

Hello Diaste,

Concerning your first sentence, I bet you could already hear me saying something like, "It don't, unless it is based on Scripture."  When it comes to the things of God, life, this world, and the hereafter, Scripture holds the answers.  And, whatever examples, illustrations, charts, or whatever that we feel might be of a help in showing what Scripture holds, if it don't align with Scripture, it needs to be pitched---in the trash can, that is.  Of course, this goes for something that I feel might be of a help as well.

Concerning your last paragraph, it's only because of the other info that we have, in conjunction with the immediate info, that I would make this statement. 

[not an echo]

On 4/18/2021 at 7:18 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/16/2021 at 10:50 PM, not an echo said:

The 7th Trumpet is indeed the last trumpet sounded in the series of the seven trumpets spoken of in The Revelation.  But, it is not The Trump of God spoken of by Paul in I Thessalonians 4:16.  Neither is it The Last Trump spoken of by Paul in I Corinthians 15:52.  Neither is it the "great sound of a trumpet" spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24:31,

Oh? Is there scripture confirming this? I don't see anything written annulling the idea that all three descriptions can be the same trump. The 7th trump is at least A trump of God and it is clearly A last trump. Don't have to swim a raging torrent to come to this conclusion.

Now Diaste, there you go doing that again that you do so well.  Yes, but you do "have to swim a raging torrent" to come to the other conclusion (Oops---said without thinking, but with a little smile on my face and a twinkle in my eye ).

On 4/18/2021 at 7:18 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

 

which will be sounded with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Efforts to conflate the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet are just never going to hold, and for good reason---they do not dovetail.

They don't? Is there a written prohibition?

In my eyes, there are a lot of written prohibitions.  An easy is that you are wanting the 7th Trumpet to be sounded, and the 7th Seal will not have even been opened yet.

On 4/18/2021 at 7:18 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

 

  A glaring example that presently comes to mind is the utter lack of any hint of normalcy prior to the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. 

Not sure how this is a proof. Are you saying that the only time the 7th trump can sound is under a condition of 'normalcy' and that it could never at any other time, under any other condition, or set of conditions, sound?

Hmmm.  No.  What I meant by my statement is that the fact there is not any hint of normalcy preceding the 7th Trumpet is the reason that it can't be the time of the rapture.  Whatever you are believing about the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet, you still have to work on the 6th Trumpet, the 5th Trumpet, the 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st trumpets...and a lot more.  In other words, you "have to swim a raging torrent."  As I see it, you need normalcy (and a lot of it) before the sounding of the 7th Trumpet---and there ain't none.

On 4/18/2021 at 7:18 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

As nicely as I know how to put it, any acceptance of what you continue to put forth would be tantamount to accepting that the flood was raging as Noah and the rest were trying to board the ark.

That wouldn't fit anyway as we know Noah didn't board the ark under those conditions as the opposite is in fact recorded.

The record of note here is what the Lord Most High says about the end and that's all we can know. 

That's exactly what I'm getting at Diaste.  Everyone was going about their normal day to day when "all the fountains of the great deep" were "broken up" and "the windows of heaven were opened" (Gen. 7:11).  I don't know how everyone is going to be going about their normal day to day after the first six trumpets have sounded, not to mention the ripple effects of said.

Of course, I certainly agree with your last sentence.

[not an echo]

On 4/18/2021 at 8:56 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/16/2021 at 11:56 AM, not an echo said:

But Diaste, my friend, I'm doing nothing more than what Jesus did with parables.  I learned this teaching tool from our Lord, and I love it.  I don't know why you consistently seem to be annoyed by the use of illustrations.  I'm reminded of the parable, "The legs of the lame are not equal:  so is a parable in the mouth of fools" (Pro. 26:7).  I could gather that you feel that my parables/illustrations are not being rightly used, but I would beg to differ.  My encouragement would be for you to also use Jesus' teaching tool (rightly, of course), so that I might be able to be see what you feel to be more the truth, for to this point, I'm not even in the proximity.  There is no semblance of desperation with me, only a desire to show forth the truths that I believe God has opened my eyes to in my study of His Word.  Now, I am kinda desperate for time!  It seems that I am always having to re-prioritize, so that I can come up with time for this or that, if you know what I mean. 

Got to go, but I'll be back...Well, the Good Lord willing and the creeks don't rise (James 4:15)!

I have no problems with illustrations, they can help. When I don't feel they are appropriate is when they replace instead of enhance. There is a plethora of fact in the text concerning this topic, few delivered in parables which are an illustration of a truth, and until the facts are fully fleshed out I don't see the need to introduce literary or rhetorical devices.

The part of the discourse from 24:32-51 isn't parable but direct association of a common occurrence to enhance the lesson. It's apt, concise and powerful. I don't always see that in every illustration.

Are you meaning "until the facts are fully fleshed out" pertaining to what Scripture does or doesn't teach?  If so, I would have thought that the consensus of the forum family would have been that that was accomplished long ago.  It's one of the reasons that I, as a relative newbie, have introduced some of the "literary and rhetorical devices" that I have---to help everyone to see that there is a legit, Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

Concerning your second paragraph, something that would be of a help to me, if Matthew 24:32-51 has been "fully fleshed out",  are some "literary or rhetorical devices" expounding how everyone can be going about their normal day to day (vss. 37-39) and how Jesus can come as unexpectedly as a thief (vss. 42-44) at the time of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

One more thing (I about forgot/I almost feel like Columbo), "part of the discourse from 24:32-51" is a "parable" according to Jesus.  In verse 32 He said, "Now learn a parable..."  I think I'm gonna go with what Jesus said!  Hey man, I know you know this.  Seriously.  Just hoping you will be easy on me if I ever make a mistake.   We're gonna have some good times in Heaven brother Diaste...

And, the Trump of God might sound before I click on Submit Repl

P.S.  How did you like that rhetorical device (Repl)?

Edited February 3, 2023 by not an echo
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[Diaste]

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

Are you meaning "until the facts are fully fleshed out" pertaining to what Scripture does or doesn't teach?  If so, I would have thought that the consensus of the forum family would have been that that was accomplished long ago.  It's one of the reasons that I, as a relative newbie, have introduced some of the "literary and rhetorical devices" that I have---to help everyone to see that there is a legit, Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

A consensus is just a group that agrees with something they like. When it goes bad there's always a prepared scapegoat. Leaders don't lead by consensus, they get advice then decide.

Quote

Concerning your second paragraph, something that would be of a help to me, if Matthew 24:32-51 has been "fully fleshed out,"  are some "literary or rhetorical devices"  expounding how everyone can be going about their normal day to day (vss. 37-39) and how Jesus can come as unexpectedly as a thief (vss. 42-44) at the time of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

Part of the mark of the beast is that is allows people to buy and sell. it's the ticket to continuing their daily lives and filling their bellies. Buying and selling would extend to being able to get a job or not as you can't sell services without the mark. So for a lot of people their lives after the mark are as before.

Jesus doesn't come as a thief to everyone.

1 Thess 5 

For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief.

So we as brothers in the Spirit will not be overtaken like a thief as we are not in darkness. This is an example of all the facts taken into consideration to find a conclusion and not letting the conclusion derive the facts.

For over 40 years I have heard this used as a major pretrib proof; 

"Jesus comes like a thief for us so we won't know when He's coming so it must be a pretrib rapture."

'Jesus come like a thief for the church.'

'We won't know when.'

Are both false premises and render a false conclusion. I could allow pretrib might be true, but it isn't proven here.

Quote

One more thing (I about forgot/I almost feel like Columbo), "part of the discourse from 24:32-51" is a "parable" according to Jesus.  In verse 32 He said, "Now learn a parable..."  I think I'm gonna go with what Jesus said!  Hey man, I know you know this.  Seriously.  Just hoping you will be easy on me if I ever make a mistake.   We're gonna have some good times in Heaven brother Diaste...

And, the Trump of God might sound before I click on Submit Repl

P.S.  How did you like that rhetorical device (Repl)?

I think I remember saying few and limiting it to Matt 24. If I didn't qualify it properly I apologize.

Edited April 21, 2021 by Diaste

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

Now Diaste, there you go doing that again that you do so well.  Yes, but you do "have to swim a raging torrent" to come to the other conclusion (Oops---said without thinking, but with a little smile on my face and a twinkle in my eye ).

In my eyes, there are a lot of written prohibitions.  An easy is that you are wanting the 7th Trumpet to be sounded, and the 7th Seal will not have even been opened yet.

Well it's not what I want really. I have wants that would end the nonsense on earth in a matter of weeks; okay, okay...maybe a year. But that doesn't matter as it's not what I want but what God says. It's His plan and we just have to believe Him.

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hmmm.  No.  What I meant by my statement is that the fact there is not any hint of normalcy preceding the 7th Trumpet is the reason that it can't be the time of the rapture.  Whatever you are believing about the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet, you still have to work on the 6th Trumpet, the 5th Trumpet, the 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st trumpets...and a lot more.  In other words, you "have to swim a raging torrent."  As I see it, you need normalcy (and a lot of it) before the sounding of the 7th Trumpet---and there ain't none.

So where it is written there is normalcy? And what would that look like? Suddenly it was normal the world is locked down, masked and vaccinated. You know the world ain't 'normal'. That's a fallback to an explanation of society that doesn't exist.

I have already dealt with the trumps. Our best evidence is Joel. And even if you choose not to accept that Joel is referring to the A of D it's very clear all the green grass is gone by fire and all the trees scorched before the Day of the Lord. So that means the 1st trump has sounded before the Lord comes which is immediately after the 6th seal. Joel also says the waters have dried up. The 3rd trump makes the waters bitter. I know you're going to kick this one back but Joel is seeing the effects of the 3rd trump. 

Why?

Because of the great army that has come against Israel, the harvest gone and all the grass burned by fire are both associated with the trumps and Joel points out the calamities of; devastation of the house of God, the grass gone, the harvest destroyed and the waters dried up exist when the day of the Lord is near.

Alas for the day!

For the Day of the LORD is near,

and it will come

as destruction from the Almighty.b

16Has not the food been cut off

before our very eyes—

joy and gladness

from the house of our God?

Joel here says the harbinger of the day of the Lord is the food is gone and the joy is gone from the house of God. See how he asks the rhetorical question? This is a good example of excellent literary form and it is astonishingly convincing.

So if the 1st and 3rd trump have sounded at the time when the day of the Lord is near, and Joel uses the fact of no food and no joy in the house of God as proof, then the 4-6th trump will also sound before or in conjunction with the 6th seal. 

And just because Joel doesn't mention the affects of the 2nd and 4th through 6th trump it's not a prohibition. 

 

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

That's exactly what I'm getting at Diaste.  Everyone was going about their normal day to day when "all the fountains of the great deep" were "broken up" and "the windows of heaven were opened" (Gen. 7:11).  I don't know how everyone is going to be going about their normal day to day after the first six trumpets have sounded, not to mention the ripple effects of said.

Of course, I certainly agree with your last sentence.

Yeah, we don't know. No one does one way or the other. No one has ever seen nor will ever again see what the end of the age brings. We need to stay humble and expectant and trust in the source of prophecy and the strength of His people, the Lord Jesus.