Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[not an echo]

I was going to write the following in response to a post on another thread, but I didn't want to be a party to possibly derailing a thread that wasn't mine.  Moreover, I certainly believe that this subject deserves a thread all it's own. 

So, is the Trump of God (I Thess. 4:16) the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 8:2 with 11:15)?  I think everyone is in agreement that the Trump of God is also "the Last Trump" spoken of in I Corinthians 15:52.  But, is this Last Trump/Trump of God the 7th Trumpet?  It is quite understandable how that it could be said that the 7th Trumpet is at least a last trumpet, for it is certainly the last in a series of seven trumpets.  It is also quite understandable how that one might put forth that the 7th Trumpet is the last trumpet, for again, it is certainly the last in a series of seven trumpets.  But, is this the Trump of God, or THE LAST Trump?

Is this thread about splitting hairs?  If I didn't know much about the Bible, I would think so!  But, there are solid scriptural reasons to consider this question.  For example, in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, He speaks of a trumpet that is commonly accepted as being the Trump of God, or the Last Trump.  In Matthew 24, He says:

 31  And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This "great sound of a trumpet" that Jesus speaks of in verse 31 happens during an event that He describes in verses 29-31, an event that certainly appears to find its fulfillment in connection with the opening of the 6th Seal, in Revelation 6:12-7:17.  Further, this "great sound of a trumpet" is commonly accepted to be the Trump of God, or THE Last Trump.  All of this then poses a relevant question:  If the event Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:29-31 finds its fulfillment in connection with the the opening of the 6th Seal, how can the 7th Trumpet spoken of much later in Revelation 11:15 be the "great sound of a trumpet" that Jesus speaks of, or the Trump of God?  My answer:  It isn't---and the reasoning is quite logical.  Let me explain, and I hope you will suffer me to reminisce a little...

When I was in high school (back in the 70's), I loved to go with my friend and his family to the dirt track races.  Every weekend we would go, and of course, we had our favorite race car drivers.  Our biggest favorite was Jessie Ladd, #77.  He won a lot , but not always .  Man, them races were so close, we often didn't know who was going to be the winner, most times, not even up to the last lap.  Often, even in turn four, it would be neck and neck and we wouldn't know the winner till they actually crossed the finish line.  Those were the days, over 45 years ago!

I've got to tell you that when Jessie won the race, that was a big, big night for us!   And on Monday (if school was still in), we would tell our buddies that Jessie won the main Saturday night.  We could even talk smack about how he was the one who got to drive the last lap.  Someone who had never been to the races might remark, "Well, duh, don't everyone get to drive the last lap?"  Of course, the answer would be that the last lap we were talking about was the Victory Lap.  What's that?  That's where the winning driver pulls up in front of the flagger's stand and gets presented with the checkered flag.  The winner would then drive slowly around the track, waving that flag, his fans cheering him on (I just got a tear in my eye, reminiscing---seriously).

I've shared all the foregoing to say this:  At the races, there was always the last lap of the race, which was one in a series, AND, there was always the Victory Lap.  Always.  You know, it goes without saying that there was a lot of difference in the last lap of the race and the Victory Lap.  On the nights that Jessie won, the Victory Lap was Jessie's Lap.  That was THE LAST LAP.  It was in a category all by itself.

I submit that the Trump of God---THE LAST TRUMP---is in a category all by itself.  That Last Trump is not the last in a series, as the 7th Trumpet is.  You know, I may be wrong about it.  But, with this understanding, a lot of prophetic puzzle pieces sure come together nicely for me---like by design.

This thread is part of A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have.  Here's a link to my master thread, which also shows the other threads I have started relating to the subject of my different interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).  I wish I had the time to start---and keep up with---all the threads that I have had on my mind that relate to my view.  For now, it is little by little, the best I can, until the Lord sees fit differently.  With Christian charity (I Cor. 13:4-7), not an echo

Edited February 3, 2023 by not an echo
add link and other

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

I was going to write the following in response to a post on another thread, but I didn't want to be a party to possibly derailing a thread that wasn't mine.  Moreover, I certainly believe that this subject deserves a thread all it's own. 

So, is the Trump of God (I Thess. 4:16) the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 8:2 with 11:15)?  I think everyone is in agreement that the Trump of God is also "the Last Trump" spoken of in I Corinthians 15:52.  But, is this Last Trump/Trump of God the 7th Trumpet?  It is quite understandable how that it could be said that the 7th Trumpet is at least a last trumpet, for it is certainly the last in a series of seven trumpets.  It is also quite understandable how that one might put forth that the 7th Trumpet is the last trumpet, for again, it is certainly the last in a series of seven trumpets.  But, is this the Trump of God, or THE LAST Trump?

 

Hi not an echo,

I did enjoy you story, and great to have such memories. Now as always we need to see what God, the author of the Bible, His word, what He says about the word `trumpet.`

`I heard behind me a LOUD VOICE, as of a trumpet.` (Rev. 1: 10)

`And the first VOICE I heard was like a trumpet....` (Rev. 4: 1)

So there we see that God`s voice is like a trumpet. God is Spirit and is in the invisible realm, thus there is not an earthly physical instrument. The trumpet is a symbol of God`s voice. It refers to God speaking forth -

`I am the Alpha and the Omega...` (Rev, 1: 11) and `Come up here and I will show you things which must take place after this.` (Rev. 4: 1)

So now to the timing of God speaking like a trumpet.

 

1. The Last trumpet. Last, `eschatos,` meaning final of place or time. 

`we shall be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound,...` (1 Cor. 15: 51 & 52)

`For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God.` (1 Thess. 4: 16)

Thus I see that it is God`s voice that rings forth to the Body of Christ and we are all gathered unto Him. It is the last time that God`s voice like a trumpet, will be heard by the believers. For when we are taken to glory we will hear the Lord face to face.

Note that this `last trumpet` of God`s voice will be spoken to the Body of Christ.

 

2. The 7 trumpets of the trib. These are also God`s voice but spoken in judgment upon the rebellious of the world. The 7 angels that sound forth with the `trumpets,` are actually speaking forth the judgments that God has told them to say. 

`the 7 angels who had the 7 trumpets prepared themselves to sound. The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.` (Rev. 8: 6 & 7)

Note that these `trumpets` of God`s judgments will be to the Nations of the world. 

 

Big difference there as to how and when and where God speaks forth as a trumpet.

 

regards, marilyn.

 

[not an echo]

Hello Marilyn C,

I can appreciate your thoughts, and really don't feel much inclination to nitpick (as some might say) concerning how you are seeing things concerning the difference in physical realm trumpets and what the spiritual realm "Last Trump" or "Trump of God" will actually be.  Of course, in my thinking, I guess you could say that I have always envisioned a spiritual realm, Divine Trumpet, which could be considered "THE TRUMPET OF TRUMPETS"!  But, we are seeing "through a glass, darkly" (I Cor. 13:12).  Whatever it is in reality, it is going to AWESOME! 

I can really, really appreciate that you are seeing a difference in the Trump of God, or Last Trump, and the 7th Trumpet. 

[WilliamL]

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

I submit that the Trump of God---THE LAST TRUMP---is in a category all by itself.  That Last Trump is not the last in a series, as the 7th Trumpet is. 

And you are absolutely right. The trumpet/shofar of God is not the trumpet of an angel. Rather, it is the second/last/eschatos of two shofars of judgment, the first/protos shofar being the one blown on Mount Sinai. Exodus 19:16

For the full story, go to my blog post here:

2. The Last Shofar: The Latter Horn of Redemption

    Provides the Hebraic background of, and explanation for, Paul’s use of the term “the Last Trumpet” in 1 Corinthians 15:51; then explains its connection to Paul’s often-ignored Rapture prophecy in Hebrews 12:18-28.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/840-the-last-shofar-the-latter-horn-of-redemption/

 

[Marilyn C]

On 3/25/2021 at 4:59 AM, not an echo said:

Hello Marilyn C,

I can appreciate your thoughts, and really don't feel much inclination to nitpick (as some might say) concerning how you are seeing things concerning the difference in physical realm trumpets and what the spiritual realm "Last Trump" or "Trump of God" will actually be.  Of course, in my thinking, I guess you could say that I have always envisioned a spiritual realm, Divine Trumpet, which could be considered "THE TRUMPET OF TRUMPETS"!  But, we are seeing "through a glass, darkly" (I Cor. 13:12).  Whatever it is in reality, it is going to AWESOME! 

I can really, really appreciate that you are seeing a difference in the Trump of God, or Last Trump, and the 7th Trumpet. 

Thank you for being so polite. Now had you realised that such things as `trumpets` are of the physical realm and not in the spiritual. There are no such things in the spiritual realm. Musical instruments are not as such but the sound of them are within a being. eg. `The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.` (Ez. 28: 13)

To think the trumpet of God is anything but His voice is negating God`s own interpretation in His word and leads off into all sort of conjecture, (adding to scripture or taking away what God says).

Marilyn. 

[existential mabel]

On 3/27/2021 at 5:03 AM, Marilyn C said:

Thank you for being so polite. Now had you realised that such things as `trumpets` are of the physical realm and not in the spiritual. There are no such things in the spiritual realm. Musical instruments are not as such but the sound of them are within a being. eg. `The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.` (Ez. 28: 13)

To think the trumpet of God is anything but His voice is negating God`s own interpretation in His word and leads off into all sort of conjecture, (adding to scripture or taking away what God says).

Marilyn. 

daft question ...but will we hear the Trumpet internally then ...internal ears so to speak ,just now that thought dropped into my thinking

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, existential mabel said:

daft question ...but will we hear the Trumpet internally then ...internal ears so to speak ,just now that thought dropped into my thinking

Hi mabel,

I think that is a great question. As God`s word says that the `trumpet` is His voice,` (Rev. 1: 10 & 4: 1) then I believe we`ll hear His voice in our spirit and zoom, off we`ll go. There will be a build up prior to that as Christ the Head of the Body will be preparing us with an expectation in our hearts as the time draws near. 

We`ll all be sharing more & more & be excited and eager for the Lord to come. Others will be so earth bound in their cares, and wants and debts that they will miss it altogether. Still even in the trib, God`s hand of mercy is outstretched, but the Body group will have gone. 

[R. Hartono]

On 3/24/2021 at 12:39 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi not an echo,

I did enjoy you story, and great to have such memories. Now as always we need to see what God, the author of the Bible, His word, what He says about the word `trumpet.`

`I heard behind me a LOUD VOICE, as of a trumpet.` (Rev. 1: 10)

`And the first VOICE I heard was like a trumpet....` (Rev. 4: 1)

So there we see that God`s voice is like a trumpet. God is Spirit and is in the invisible realm, thus there is not an earthly physical instrument. The trumpet is a symbol of God`s voice. It refers to God speaking forth -

`I am the Alpha and the Omega...` (Rev, 1: 11) and `Come up here and I will show you things which must take place after this.` (Rev. 4: 1)

So now to the timing of God speaking like a trumpet.

 

1. The Last trumpet. Last, `eschatos,` meaning final of place or time. 

`we shall be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound,...` (1 Cor. 15: 51 & 52)

`For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God.` (1 Thess. 4: 16)

Thus I see that it is God`s voice that rings forth to the Body of Christ and we are all gathered unto Him. It is the last time that God`s voice like a trumpet, will be heard by the believers. For when we are taken to glory we will hear the Lord face to face.

Note that this `last trumpet` of God`s voice will be spoken to the Body of Christ.

 

2. The 7 trumpets of the trib. These are also God`s voice but spoken in judgment upon the rebellious of the world. The 7 angels that sound forth with the `trumpets,` are actually speaking forth the judgments that God has told them to say. 

`the 7 angels who had the 7 trumpets prepared themselves to sound. The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.` (Rev. 8: 6 & 7)

Note that these `trumpets` of God`s judgments will be to the Nations of the world. 

 

Big difference there as to how and when and where God speaks forth as a trumpet.

 

regards, marilyn.

 

Imho the trumpet of Rapture is not a single trumpet blown by an angel.

May be first the sky is darkened with thunderstorm n then suddenly with the mighty sound of trumpet the sign of Lord Jesus appears in the sky.

Secondly the dead may b raised first with the sound of trumpet resurrection n corrupted bodies restored.

Thirdly, may be the sound of trumpet to send millions of angels to gather the saints.

The world will tremble like when God descended to Mt Sinai in thunderstorm n mighty sound of trumpets, not one trumpet by one angel but many.

May be, just wait n see, dead or alive.

Jesus bless you.

[Marilyn C]

On 4/2/2021 at 5:14 PM, R. Hartono said:

Imho the trumpet of Rapture is not a single trumpet blown by an angel.

May be first the sky is darkened with thunderstorm n then suddenly with the mighty sound of trumpet the sign of Lord Jesus appears in the sky.

Secondly the dead may b raised first with the sound of trumpet resurrection n corrupted bodies restored.

Thirdly, may be the sound of trumpet to send millions of angels to gather the saints.

The world will tremble like when God descended to Mt Sinai in thunderstorm n mighty sound of trumpets, not one trumpet by one angel but many.

May be, just wait n see, dead or alive.

Jesus bless you.

Hi R. Hartono,

Too many `maybees` bro. Need scripture not our `humble opinions.`

regards, Marilyn.

[Diaste]

On 3/23/2021 at 7:10 PM, not an echo said:

I was going to write the following in response to a post on another thread, but I didn't want to be a party to possibly derailing a thread that wasn't mine.  Moreover, I certainly believe that this subject deserves a thread all it's own. 

So, is the Trump of God (I Thess. 4:16) the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 8:2 with 11:15)?  I think everyone is in agreement that the Trump of God is also "the Last Trump" spoken of in I Corinthians 15:52.  But, is this Last Trump/Trump of God the 7th Trumpet?  It is quite understandable how that it could be said that the 7th Trumpet is at least a last trumpet, for it is certainly the last in a series of seven trumpets.  It is also quite understandable how that one might put forth that the 7th Trumpet is the last trumpet, for again, it is certainly the last in a series of seven trumpets.  But, is this the Trump of God, or THE LAST Trump?

It's literally the only last trump in all of scripture directly associated with the coming of the Lord, the end of the age and the gathering of the saints. The only one.  If there was some other last trump, @WilliamL legend story aside, then this could make sense. There simply isn't one and I think it unfair to make one up.

On 3/23/2021 at 7:10 PM, not an echo said:

Is this thread about splitting hairs?  If I didn't know much about the Bible, I would think so!  But, there are solid scriptural reasons to consider this question.  For example, in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, He speaks of a trumpet that is commonly accepted as being the Trump of God, or the Last Trump.  In Matthew 24, He says:

 31  And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This "great sound of a trumpet" that Jesus speaks of in verse 31 happens during an event that He describes in verses 29-31, an event that certainly appears to find its fulfillment in connection with the opening of the 6th Seal, in Revelation 6:12-7:17.  Further, this "great sound of a trumpet" is commonly accepted to be the Trump of God, or THE Last Trump.  All of this then poses a relevant question:  If the event Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:29-31 finds its fulfillment in connection with the the opening of the 6th Seal, how can the 7th Trumpet spoken of much later in Revelation 11:15 be the "great sound of a trumpet" that Jesus speaks of, or the Trump of God?  My answer:  It isn't---and the reasoning is quite logical.  Let me explain, and I hope you will suffer me to reminisce a little...

Spoken of much later in a written work has no bearing on time/space fulfillment; it could mean a later moment in the timeline but it does not have to. What does carry weight are the facts surrounding the fulfillment. So if we consider the prophecy as a whole, and we must, other factors guide the timeline. Chapter and verse are not a consideration as they are organizers and reference tools not meant to establish timing. 

On 3/23/2021 at 7:10 PM, not an echo said:

When I was in high school (back in the 70's), I loved to go with my friend and his family to the dirt track races.  Every weekend we would go, and of course, we had our favorite race car drivers.  Our biggest favorite was Jessie Ladd, #77.  He won a lot , but not always .  Man, them races were so close, we often didn't know who was going to be the winner, most times, not even up to the last lap.  Often, even in turn four, it would be neck and neck and we wouldn't know the winner till they actually crossed the finish line.  Those were the days, over 45 years ago!

I've got to tell you that when Jessie won the race, that was a big, big night for us!   And on Monday (if school was still in), we would tell our buddies that Jessie won the main Saturday night.  We could even talk smack about how he was the one who got to drive the last lap.  Someone who had never been to the races might remark, "Well, duh, don't everyone get to drive the last lap?"  Of course, the answer would be that the last lap we were talking about was the Victory Lap.  What's that?  That's where the winning driver pulls up in front of the flagger's stand and gets presented with the checkered flag.  The winner would then drive slowly around the track, waving that flag, his fans cheering him on (I just got a tear in my eye, reminiscing---seriously).

I've shared all the foregoing to say this:  At the races, there was always the last lap of the race, which was one in a series, AND, there was always the Victory Lap.  Always.  You know, it goes without saying that there was a lot of difference in the last lap of the race and the Victory Lap.  On the nights that Jessie won, the Victory Lap was Jessie's Lap.  That was THE LAST LAP.  It was in a category all by itself.

My friend, there is no association here with prophecy. Using a pastime as a means to explain the meaning and timing of a Spirit given prophecy just feels desperate. 

On 3/23/2021 at 7:10 PM, not an echo said:

I submit that the Trump of God---THE LAST TRUMP---is in a category all by itself.  That Last Trump is not the last in a series, as the 7th Trumpet is.  You know, I may be wrong about it.  But, with this understanding, a lot of prophetic puzzle pieces sure come together nicely for me---like by design.

By the very nature of the words, "last trump" it has to last in a group. In some group. Any group. A small set of two. A large set of 10,000. If it stands a lone it's just a trump, not last, not first, just a trump. But it's called 'the last trump'. Therefore it must be the last in a series. Now I don't have any reason to believe it's only the last trump, in only one set, only at one time, if it can be proven from evidence there was a first then a last at any point in history past or future. 

The problem is with any other interpretation is the evidence concerning the last trump. The last trump is when the dead are raised, at the coming of Jesus, to meet Him in the clouds in the air, at the end of the age. This pretty firmly sets the timing. So in that context there is only one last trump and that's the 7th of Revelation.

Rev 11 [edited for clarity]

"Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven:

“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ,

and He will reign forever and ever.”

18The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come.”"

This is the profound moment of future history. Jesus is taking over; finally and forever. Is there another trump after this one? Is there a last trump before this last trump? If there is where is it written?

Now you said this was spoken of much later in Rev. You also said the 6th seal finds a parallel with Matt 24. I agree. We know Matt 24 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." are the signs, the appearance and, the wrath of Jesus. The same wrath we see at the 6th seal.

And from the above we also see wrath begin at the 7th trump; "The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come." The 7th trump isn't much later, it's near in time with the 6th seal. It cannot be any other way. The last trump is the gathering of the elect: "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality."

and the coming of Jesus. 

"16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

Here we have Paul say 'last trump' in 1 Cor 15 and 'trump of God' in 1 Thess 4. Clearly they are the same trump as the gathering of the elect is depicted in both. So then anytime we see the gathering we know the last trump sounds. The gathering moment is when Jesus comes at the end of the age. One trump, and only one is a last trump; the one at the end of the age when Jesus arrives and that is the 7th of Revelation.

 

On 3/23/2021 at 7:10 PM, not an echo said:

This thread is part of A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have.  Here's a link to that master thread, which also shows the other threads I have started relating to the subject of my different interpretation, or view (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).  I wish I had the time to start---and keep up with---all the threads that I have had on my mind that relate to my view.  For now, it is little by little, the best I can, until the Lord sees fit differently.  With Christian charity (I Cor. 13:4-7), not an echo