Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[not an echo]

On 4/21/2021 at 5:36 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/20/2021 at 9:56 PM, not an echo said:

Are you meaning "until the facts are fully fleshed out" pertaining to what Scripture does or doesn't teach?  If so, I would have thought that the consensus of the forum family would have been that that was accomplished long ago.  It's one of the reasons that I, as a relative newbie, have introduced some of the "literary and rhetorical devices" that I have---to help everyone to see that there is a legit, Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

A consensus is just a group that agrees with something they like. When it goes bad there's always a prepared scapegoat. Leaders don't lead by consensus, they get advice then decide.

Hello Diaste,

What I kinda meant is that it is sometimes easy (as a forum newbie) to get the impression that the consensus of such a huge forum family would be that what Scripture has to say concerning the timing of the rapture has all been laid out on the table, if you will.  Kinda like what the position of the world of scholarship would be.  Said another way, a relative newcomer to the subject might think, "Well, I'm just seeing about the same ole same ole as far as arguments go---which one of the four views is closest to the truth?"  What I'm getting at is even evidenced at the top of the eschatology category of this forum, as the four common views/options are pinned there for discussion.

So, again, my point was that one of the reasons I have introduced some of the "literary and rhetorical devices" that I have (which you disparage), is to help everyone to see that there is a legit, Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

I have no desire to try to change what Scripture says.  I would fear that God would strike me dead if I had such a mentality.  But, I am very highly interested in interpreting correctly what Scripture says.  I have always liked examples and illustrations.  I have found that much in Scripture that has been wrestled with for centuries can be more easily understood by things that we see and experience in our day to day lives.  The religious hierarchy of Jesus' day was steeped in Scripture and a country mile away from getting it.  Jesus came along and used everyday examples to help the down to earth people get it.

Edited February 3, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 4/21/2021 at 5:36 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Concerning your second paragraph, something that would be of a help to me, if Matthew 24:32-51 has been "fully fleshed out,"  are some "literary or rhetorical devices"  expounding how everyone can be going about their normal day to day (vss. 37-39) and how Jesus can come as unexpectedly as a thief (vss. 42-44) at the time of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

Part of the mark of the beast is that is allows people to buy and sell. it's the ticket to continuing their daily lives and filling their bellies. Buying and selling would extend to being able to get a job or not as you can't sell services without the mark. So for a lot of people their lives after the mark are as before.

Are you suggesting that the requirement of the beast that everyone take the mark will reduce what happens prior to the sounding of the 7th Trumpet to a way of life "as before"?  Before what?

[not an echo]

On 4/21/2021 at 5:36 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Concerning your second paragraph, something that would be of a help to me, if Matthew 24:32-51 has been "fully fleshed out,"  are some "literary or rhetorical devices"  expounding how everyone can be going about their normal day to day (vss. 37-39) and how Jesus can come as unexpectedly as a thief (vss. 42-44) at the time of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

Part of the mark of the beast is that is allows people to buy and sell. it's the ticket to continuing their daily lives and filling their bellies. Buying and selling would extend to being able to get a job or not as you can't sell services without the mark. So for a lot of people their lives after the mark are as before.

Jesus doesn't come as a thief to everyone.

1 Thess 5 

For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief.

So we as brothers in the Spirit will not be overtaken like a thief as we are not in darkness. This is an example of all the facts taken into consideration to find a conclusion and not letting the conclusion derive the facts.

For over 40 years I have heard this used as a major pretrib proof; 

"Jesus comes like a thief for us so we won't know when He's coming so it must be a pretrib rapture."

'Jesus come like a thief for the church.'

'We won't know when.'

Are both false premises and render a false conclusion. I could allow pretrib might be true, but it isn't proven here.

Concerning your statement, "Jesus doesn't come as a thief to everyone",  I fully agree.  But, I am wondering:  What about all those that He does come as a thief to?  What about all those who aren't going to be prepared?  In Noah's day, eight were prepared.  The rest of the world was not.  There wasn't any flood, till there was.  Moreover, the eight didn't get touched by it.

Edited February 3, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your statement, "Jesus doesn't come as a thief to everyone,"  I fully agree.  But, I am wondering:  What about all those that He does come as a thief to?  What about all those who aren't going to be prepared?  In Noah's day, eight were prepared.  The rest of the world was not.  There wasn't any flood, till there was.  Moreover, the eight didn't get touched by it.

I have wondered that myself and have to trust the Lord has it in hand. I mean...it's not like the world hasn't heard. Everyone knows the name of Jesus and none can escape the idea of the end of the world. If it isn't politicians using the global disaster scenarios to raise taxes, it's Hollywood producing every kind of end of the world motif imaginable and sending it out to the entire world. It's in the books, radio, magazines, TV; we all know it's coming, it's just that some are in denial, or waiting for the aliens to show up and set everything right. I think they'll get that wish too! 

I agree. not touched by the flood, but right in the midst of the flood. Like literally in a boat with animals, tossed about, unharmed. 

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

Are you suggesting that the requirement of the beast that everyone take the mark will reduce what happens prior to the sounding of the 7th Trumpet to a way of life "as before"?  Before what?

Buying and selling. It's interesting to me how such a basic thing has such momentous consequences. Our entire lives are based on economies, buying and selling. I bet people not only take the mark but aggressively seek it; lots of them. 

And I'm not saying there won't be changes. From what I can see there will be a problem with scarcity which will lead to rationing and the mark.

I hope I was making the point about the way of life of buying and selling. If not I should have and that was an error on my part. 

And it's not really me saying this:

"As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. 

38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. 

39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away.

So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man" 

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

What I kinda meant is that it is sometimes easy (as a forum newbie) to get the impression that the consensus of such a huge forum family would be that what Scripture has to say concerning the timing of the rapture has all been laid out on the table, if you will.  Kinda like what the position of the world of scholarship would be.  Said another way, a relative newcomer to the subject might think, "Well, I'm just seeing about the same ole same ole as far as arguments go---which one of the four views is closest to the truth?"  What I'm getting at is even evidenced at the top of the eschatology category of this forum, as the four common views/options are pinned there for discussion.

 

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

So, again, my point was that one of the reasons I have introduced some of the "literary and rhetorical devices" that I have (which you disparage), is to help everyone to see that there is a legit,  

I think that's unfair. I don't take issue with literary forms. I have an issue when literary forms are used in place of facts, logic and cogent argument. And just so you don't think I'm robotic and unmoving....I think even the logical fallacies have validity in some cases. An emotional plea following factual presentation is quite moving. 

I remember Solomon based a decision on an emotional plea, so there's that.

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

I have no desire to try to change what Scripture says.  I would fear that God would strike me dead if I had such a mentality.  But, I am very highly interested in interpreting correctly what Scripture says.  I have always liked examples and illustrations.  I have found that much in Scripture that has been wrestled with for centuries can be more easily understood by things that we see and experience in our day to day lives.  The religious hierarchy of Jesus' day was steeped in Scripture and a country mile away from getting it.  Jesus came along and used everyday examples to help the down to earth people get it.

You're probably right. Maybe the resistance I raise is based on my past and that might be unfair in some cases. I have overcorrected before and I know that because the evidence fit the suggestion.  

So...story time. lol

Back when I was a wide eyed, and naive, new believer I hung on every word preached in every church. Pastors, priests, missionaries, etc. spoke and I listened. Radio sermons were a favorite of mine. It was strangely safe and comforting to hear Andrew Womack talk about the goat for Azazel day after day, week after week.

And what believer didn't get up when Brother Shambach said, "I call the power of Jesus Christ alive into your being..." at the end of every sermon. I used to love to hear that. And the great Greek scholar Spiros Zodhiates was quite the inspiration on a weekly basis.

I didn't discriminate either. Stanley, Swaggart, Roberts, even Copeland were listened to. Must have read Late Great Planet Earth 3-4 times, used it as a study guide as well.

I was in awe of the pastor and elders at the local church I went to. How could they know so much and have an answer for everything?, I would think. They were usually so calm and assured, it was another place I felt safe and wanted. My wife and I were part of something. We had friends who came over and invited us to their place, we were at all the functions and even got married in that community. 

The pastor there was superbly diligent exhorting the congregants to write down the references to scripture he would then expound upon so later, at home, we could read the verse/verses or passage he quoted in the sermon. I didn't do that at first, or second. Why? I trusted these people. They were warm, friendly and a family that seemed to just like me and my wife. We were all part of each others lives and I tell you that is the greatest feeling in the world. 

Over time I did begin looking up the references from the sermons. I was confused at first as I wasn't getting it. Best to just trust the Lord had me right where He wanted me. But I persisted. Soon I was reading the entire chapter from whence the verse came and doing this for every reference. I felt pretty stupid as I wasn't seeing what was being said in the sermons in the scripture quoted. Not in the verse preceding or following, many times not even in the chapter.

So I began to ask. My downfall. My father dislikes me to this day because of one word I repeated too often; Why? He didn't like that too much and the answer was almost always, "Because I said so." Extremely unsatisfying.

I would get some explanation from the pastor that was more or less what I heard from 10:30-12 in the morning every Sunday. Again, unsatisfying. At that time in my life, since I wasn't as informed as the others, I had to make a decision about what I was seeing and hearing based on what I knew.

Since the source material was in the hands of both the pastor and I, it was decided what was being said should align with the source. Sadly, it did not. This then extended to all the people I heard preach. What a crushing let down. It's almost like I would have been better off to remain ignorant, to remain a part of something, not to have a weight applied and be isolated.

What I see in the church at large today is agreement on the death and resurrection of Jesus and salvation through Him and Him alone. But even that's not true in every case. 

So I heard all the stories, metaphors, analogies, similes, real world examples, etc., etc. 

Some are great and profound. Not when they are replacements, however. Maybe I'm wounded still and too cautious. 

Thanks for listening.

 

 

[not an echo]

On 4/21/2021 at 6:06 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Hmmm.  No.  What I meant by my statement is that the fact there is not any hint of normalcy preceding the 7th Trumpet is the reason that it can't be the time of the rapture.  Whatever you are believing about the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet, you still have to work on the 6th Trumpet, the 5th Trumpet, the 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st trumpets...and a lot more.  In other words, you "have to swim a raging torrent."  As I see it, you need normalcy (and a lot of it) before the sounding of the 7th Trumpet---and there ain't none.

So where it is written there is normalcy? And what would that look like? Suddenly it was normal the world is locked down, masked and vaccinated. You know the world ain't 'normal'. That's a fallback to an explanation of society that doesn't exist.

Hello Diaste,

Concerning your first sentence, to me this is an easy scriptural deduce.  But, this may help you to see better what I am seeing.  What normal looks like is what it has been for 2000 years---about the same ole same ole.  The COVID pandemic, this is just one of many pandemics that have littered the historical landscape.  It's all an easy Goggle.  I think of wars.  During World War I, were things normal?  As far as the historical landscape goes, it was.  Someone our age, when this war began, would have easily remembered the Civil War.  Someone our age when World War II began could easily have fought in World War I.  But, no one our age has ever seen anything take place like what John saw with the opening of the 6th Seal, the sounding of the 1st Trumpet, the 2nd Trumpet, the 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th trumpets---not even close.  For 2000 years, there have been ebbs and tides.  These are normal.  However, no such is even remotely in the category of any tsunami.  And, in 2000 years, we've never had a tsunami like those that will occur with the opening of the 6th Seal and what lies beyond.

On 4/21/2021 at 6:06 AM, Diaste said:

I have already dealt with the trumps. Our best evidence is Joel. And even if you choose not to accept that Joel is referring to the A of D it's very clear all the green grass is gone by fire and all the trees scorched before the Day of the Lord. So that means the 1st trump has sounded before the Lord comes which is immediately after the 6th seal. Joel also says the waters have dried up. The 3rd trump makes the waters bitter. I know you're going to kick this one back but Joel is seeing the effects of the 3rd trump. 

Why?

Because of the great army that has come against Israel, the harvest gone and all the grass burned by fire are both associated with the trumps and Joel points out the calamities of; devastation of the house of God, the grass gone, the harvest destroyed and the waters dried up exist when the day of the Lord is near.

Alas for the day!

For the Day of the LORD is near,

and it will come

as destruction from the Almighty.b

16Has not the food been cut off

before our very eyes—

joy and gladness

from the house of our God?

Joel here says the harbinger of the day of the Lord is the food is gone and the joy is gone from the house of God. See how he asks the rhetorical question? This is a good example of excellent literary form and it is astonishingly convincing.

So if the 1st and 3rd trump have sounded at the time when the day of the Lord is near, and Joel uses the fact of no food and no joy in the house of God as proof, then the 4-6th trump will also sound before or in conjunction with the 6th seal. 

And just because Joel doesn't mention the affects of the 2nd and 4th through 6th trump it's not a prohibition. 

Do you not see any connection with Joel's prophecies and a Day of the Lord that was looming even in Joel's day?

[not an echo]

On 4/23/2021 at 10:19 AM, Da Puppers said:

On 4/20/2021 at 1:22 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Da Puppers,

I would like to say first of all that I appreciate your manner, and I can also appreciate your concern over how what is revealed in Scripture should be understood.  I believe we would all freely admit that the study of Scripture can get quite involved.  But, isn't it so very rewarding!  I have often said that the Bible is like the ocean:

So shallow in lots of places that even little children can splash around and have lots of fun in it,

but also so deep in lots of places that even world class divers will never be able to search out all its vastness.

After having thought on your replies, I think we may be able to have a more fruitful discussion if you understand some of the very basics of how I understand the Seven Sealed Book.  I'm not meaning to stray off the subject of my thread.  What I am going to share has just been a help to me in reconciling questions about the trumpets that so many have. 

According to the understanding that I have arrived at and have been settled on for quite some time, the Seven Sealed Book could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD.  This perspective alone has been a great help to me in the understanding of much that Scripture has to say about the last days.  Consider:

THE FRONT COVER OF THE BOOK---With the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17), we see a lot that fits with what Jesus spoke of connected with the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:29-31).  Also connected hard with this event is the prophecy of Joel's that Peter quoted on the Day of Pentecost, especially the part that reads, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood BEFORE that great and notable Day of the Lord come" (Acts 2:20).  I'm going to suppose that you will agree that this piece of our prophetic puzzle fits with the opening of the 6th Seal and the cry of the world at that time, "For the great day of His wrath is come;  and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:17).

Back for a moment to my proposal that the Seven Sealed Book could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD---I consider the opening of the 6th Seal as taking place the day that the cover of this book is opened, if you will.  But (it will be asked), what about the 7th Seal?  Answer:  It is removed later, the same day that the 6th Seal is removed, meaning, THE DAY OF THE LORD "is come" (Rev. 6:17) indeed.  Of course, the front cover of the book has seven seals, but, we can discuss all that later...perhaps in another thread.

THE BACK COVER OF THE BOOK---In Peter's second epistle, chapter 3, it reads thus, and note my clarifying comments:

 10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;  IN THE WHICH (in the period, era, or time of which) the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (compare with Rev. 20:11 and 21:1)

Note also two verses further...

 12  Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, WHEREIN (again, in the period, era, or time of which) the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?  (again, compare with Rev. 20:11 and 21:1)

For the sake of clarification, I would suggest that the last chapter of the Seven Sealed Book could rightly be entitled, THE LAST JUDGMENT, for that is what Revelation 20:11-15 concerns.  According to my understanding, this will mark the end of the Day of the Lord.  If you can see a fitting title for the Seven Sealed Book as being THE DAY OF THE LORD, I believe a fitting summary for the back cover ("the backside"/Rev. 5:1), would be something like this:

"For the great day of His wrath is come;

And who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:17)

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life

was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)

THE CONTENTS OF THE BOOK---This would include everything between the two covers.  In other words, everything from Revelation 8:1b through Revelation 20:15.  In other words, everything within the covers of the book is part of the Day of the Lord.

At this point, I would first of all ask if you can see this?  If so, I would ask if this understanding helps you to see how I may see things as I do.  If so, we are on our way.  If not, I will continue a little further.  And, somewhere down this path ,  we will end up at a place where we can look at those trumpets again.

Please understand that the above is not something that I am a mean ole dogmatic about.  I just consider it as an illustration that I have found to be quite helpful, so, I am sharing it.  Hope you find it to be of some help...

Sorry for taking so long to respond.   (Spring work for farmers is in high gear right now).  Let me try to address a key point about Joel's prophecy of the sun and moon,  BEFORE the DOTL  begins.   I agree that it is one of SEVERAL signs that precipitates the DOTL.   The point that i think that you are missing is the 6th Seal initiates the day of Christ,  whereas the 7th Trumpet initiates the DOTL.  E.g., 

Psa 110:5 KJV The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

Versus the 6th Seal: 

Rev 6:15-16 KJV ¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; ¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Or these, 

Isa 13:9-14 KJV ⁹ Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. ¹⁰ For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. ¹¹ And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. ¹² I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. ¹³ Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the WRATH of the LORD of HOSTS, and in the DAY of his FIERCE ANGER. ¹⁴ And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

Isa 2:10-19 KJV ¹⁰ Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty. ¹¹ The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. ¹² For the DAY of the LORD of HOSTS shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: ¹³ And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, ¹⁴ And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up, ¹⁵ And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, ¹⁶ And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. ¹⁷ And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. ¹⁸ And the idols he shall utterly abolish. ¹⁹ And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Rev 6:17 KJV For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

When you recognize that Isaiah, Jeremiah,  et al, are using the phrase, "Lord of hosts" to refer to the king of kings,  Lord Jesus Christ, 

Isa 6:5 KJV Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of HOSTS.

When you recognize this,  a new and deeper level of understanding will come regarding the prophetic coming of Christ.  With that being said,  let me make a 2nd point about distinguishing between the day of Christ and the Day of the Lord. 

The sun turning dark and the moon becoming blood red,  are indeed a sign the will precede the DOTL,  as foretold by Joel.   Let me reiterate the words of Luke, regarding those days.   

Luk 21:25 KJV And there shall be SIGNS in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

The 6th Seal sign of the sun and moon turning blood red is but only one sign that has been prophesied to happen BEFORE the DOTL comes,  as per Joel, et al.  Others are to include,  [wonders in heaven] blood and fire,  vapors of smoke,   BOTH the sun and moon shall be darkened, is a different sign than the blood red moon.  This will occur during a lunar eclipse,  when the earth blocks the rays of the sun during a full moon.   Did you know that the earth blocks the rays of the sun during an eclipse (partially AND fully) for (occasionslly) about the third part of a day?   If,  during an eclipse,  something blocks the rays of the sun from hitting the earth,  that it will also block the light from reaching the moon, EVEN WHEN (before and after)  the moon is [NOT] in total eclipse?  I said all that to say this:  there are two different signs of the sun and moon in the book of Joel.   The first one,  you know as at the 6th Seal.   The other, which i think you are overlooking,  occurs at the 4th trumpet.

Rev 8:12 KJV And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

This is the "other" sign of the sun and moon that Joel told us would come BEFORE the DOTL.   You see, this is the DAY of God Almighty,  that happens in conjunction with the 7th Trumpet.   The trumpets are not the DOTL, but are part of the Day of Christ,  that precedes that day.   In fact,  you will find that the trumpet judgments match up with the book of Joel and events that will happen BEFORE the DOTL comes,  including the appearance of Elijah as one of the 2 witnesses.   All of the events that precede the 7th Trumpet,  which includes the two witnesses and the destruction/desolation of Jerusalem (for 42 months)  AND/AS foretold in the 7 seals,  [all of these events]  precede the DOTL, as per the 7th Trumpet.   As a last note,  (w/o any detail), the first 4 seals are God's judgment upon Jerusalem, and all Israel,  after he has brought them there to judge them.   Ezekiel 14:14ff tells us of the 4 sore judgments upon Jerusalem.   This is reiterated in Ezekiel 5 (where 2/3 are killed)  and Ezekiel 7, and Isaiah 9,10, 29 and 31, and Zechariah,  and many other places in scripture. 

Eze 14:21-23 KJV ²¹ For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast? ²² Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it. ²³ And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord GOD.

The DOTL does not begin until the 7th Trumpet,  but the Day of Christ begins before that day..

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Hello Da Puppers,

Hey, I understand all about being spread thin. 

After thinking on your reply, I guess my biggest question connects mostly with the first part of your concluding sentence, "The DOTL does not begin until the 7th Trumpet..."  How do you harmonize this with the preceding trumpets and what Paul says in I Thessalonians 5:

 2  For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

 3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety;  then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child;  and they shall not escape.

Are you believing that the Day of the Lord will not begin until the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 11:15), even when "The second woe is past" (Rev. 11:14), not to mention everything else that will have happened up until then? 

Edited February 3, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 4/23/2021 at 10:19 AM, Da Puppers said:

The 6th Seal sign of the sun and moon turning blood red is but only one sign that has been prophesied to happen BEFORE the DOTL comes,  as per Joel, et al.  Others are to include,  [wonders in heaven] blood and fire,  vapors of smoke,   BOTH the sun and moon shall be darkened, is a different sign than the blood red moon.  This will occur during a lunar eclipse,  when the earth blocks the rays of the sun during a full moon.   Did you know that the earth blocks the rays of the sun during an eclipse (partially AND fully) for (occasionslly) about the third part of a day?   If,  during an eclipse,  something blocks the rays of the sun from hitting the earth,  that it will also block the light from reaching the moon, EVEN WHEN (before and after)  the moon is [NOT] in total eclipse?  I said all that to say this:  there are two different signs of the sun and moon in the book of Joel.   The first one,  you know as at the 6th Seal.   The other, which i think you are overlooking,  occurs at the 4th trumpet.

Just a little sidebar of sorts concerning the 4th Trumpet...

I see what John writes of concerning this trumpet as being a result of all the dust, vapor, and smoke that will be suspended in the earth's atmosphere after everything that happens from the opening of the 6th Seal through the 3rd Trumpet.  For me, it is easily conceivable that such could fill the atmosphere to the point of affecting day and nighttime light by one-third (Rev. 8:12).  The earth, being a sphere, is ideal for a cataclysm resulting in this to occur.

Based on what Scripture says concerning the "third part" and the "shone not" (Rev. 8:12), try to imagine what a surviving newscaster might write:  "From our perspective in the United States, the rising sun is not really seen till around 9:00 a.m.  At about 4:00 p.m., what can still be seen of it disappears, like at sunset, only it is still high in the horizon.  It is also much later, like at 10:00 p.m., before the moon or any of the stars become visible again.  Just like what I remember a preacher reading about from the Bible one time..."

[not an echo]

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your statement, "Jesus doesn't come as a thief to everyone,"  I fully agree.  But, I am wondering:  What about all those that He does come as a thief to?  What about all those who aren't going to be prepared?  In Noah's day, eight were prepared.  The rest of the world was not.  There wasn't any flood, till there was.  Moreover, the eight didn't get touched by it.

I have wondered that myself and have to trust the Lord has it in hand. I mean...it's not like the world hasn't heard. Everyone knows the name of Jesus and none can escape the idea of the end of the world. If it isn't politicians using the global disaster scenarios to raise taxes, it's Hollywood producing every kind of end of the world motif imaginable and sending it out to the entire world. It's in the books, radio, magazines, TV; we all know it's coming, it's just that some are in denial, or waiting for the aliens to show up and set everything right. I think they'll get that wish too! 

I agree. not touched by the flood, but right in the midst of the flood. Like literally in a boat with animals, tossed about, unharmed. 

My first thought would be, can we separate what the experience was for those inside the ark from what the experience was for those outside the ark?  Again, there wasn't any flood until there was.

Now, it is interesting to contemplate what things were like inside the ark.  I've always thought in terms of safe, secure, and stable.  I grew up near two big dams.  At the larger, Kentucky Dam, I have often, often, seen how turbulent the water is near the spill ways when the gates are open.  It will topple and suck a little boat right under.  And, it wouldn't be a joy ride for any bigger boat---not where the water is really rolling.  But, well in sight of the dam, just a bit down river, things are quite different, and the fishermen, even in smaller boats, are doing just fine---even loving it.

Of course, there are plenty of evidences the world over for what it must have been when "the fountains of the great deep" were "broken up" (Gen. 7:11).  But, it was God's call when and where this would happen.  I would suggest that things were remarkably serene inside the ark.  Diaste, I bet if we had been one of Noah's boys, we'd have been loving it.

By the way, have you ever been to the Ark Encounter in Kentucky?  It is awesome!  They have an awesome website as well---an easy Goggle.