Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[not an echo]

On 4/24/2021 at 4:36 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/24/2021 at 12:12 AM, not an echo said:

Are you suggesting that the requirement of the beast that everyone take the mark will reduce what happens prior to the sounding of the 7th Trumpet to a way of life "as before"?  Before what?

Buying and selling. It's interesting to me how such a basic thing has such momentous consequences. Our entire lives are based on economies, buying and selling. I bet people not only take the mark but aggressively seek it; lots of them. 

And I'm not saying there won't be changes. From what I can see there will be a problem with scarcity which will lead to rationing and the mark.

I hope I was making the point about the way of life of buying and selling. If not I should have and that was an error on my part. 

And it's not really me saying this:

"As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. 

38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. 

39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away.

So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man" 

If another 9.5 earthquake happens, millions are just going to know that the end of the world is upon us.  People wondered if Y2k would mean the end of the world.  "Hey, better get ready, we got four blood moons a-comin'!!!"  Yeah, we are living in a day when everyone can sense that things are on a teeter, but, here in our great One Nation, Under God, there were droves yesterday (Friday) from every state and county with nothing much more on their minds than getting ready for the local big shindig---TGIF  And, this is the way it is going to keep on being, more and more---till it's not.

There is a lot that will happen before the sounding of the 7th Trumpet that will make it not.  I'm gonna suggest that if the 6th Seal had of been opened yesterday, all the hot wings and cold beer would have had to wait.  As with the sounding of the 1st Trumpet and the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th trumpets.  Oh, and just because everyone is shaken out of their worldly stupor, that don't mean they will be turning to God.  I just envisioned the man dying of lung cancer, laying under an oxygen tent, with a cigarette in his mouth.  Hey, I understand.  When God delivered me, I was smoking four packs a day (over 35 years ago now).  It all just bespeaks our corrupted fallen condition.  I'm so glad that God got my attention and gave me a new lease on life.  I'm also thankful that He gave me my lungs back...

Edited February 3, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

What I kinda meant is that it is sometimes easy (as a forum newbie) to get the impression that the consensus of such a huge forum family would be that what Scripture has to say concerning the timing of the rapture has all been laid out on the table, if you will.  Kinda like what the position of the world of scholarship would be.  Said another way, a relative newcomer to the subject might think, "Well, I'm just seeing about the same ole same ole as far as arguments go---which one of the four views is closest to the truth?"  What I'm getting at is even evidenced at the top of the eschatology category of this forum, as the four common views/options are pinned there for discussion.

 

Quote

So, again, my point was that one of the reasons I have introduced some of the "literary and rhetorical devices" that I have (which you disparage), is to help everyone to see that there is a legit,  

I think that's unfair. I don't take issue with literary forms. I have an issue when literary forms are used in place of facts, logic and cogent argument. And just so you don't think I'm robotic and unmoving....I think even the logical fallacies have validity in some cases. An emotional plea following factual presentation is quite moving. 

I remember Solomon based a decision on an emotional plea, so there's that.

Concerning your first paragraph, I didn't mean to be unfair.  I believe any knowledgeable person can appreciate "literary and rhetorical devices."  It just seems that you are given to disparaging mine!   Perhaps it is just an impression that I have gotten.  To be sure, if I use an illustration wrongly, I would be fine with you setting it right.  I would prefer this over you dismissing it merely because it isn't Scripture text.

Concerning your last sentence, are you talking about the scenario of the two harlots? (I Kings 3:16-28).  Man, I remember when I was a kid and I saw that painting of Solomon and the sword and them two women and the baby, I thought Solomon was surely a evil king.  When I came to realize that wisdom was behind his directive ("Bring me a sword...Divide the living child..."), I was in awe of him (or rather, the wisdom that God had given him (I Kings 3:28).  On account of his wise directive, the emotions of the true mother were greatly stirred, and Solomon had proof positive who the true mother was.  Classic.

[not an echo]

On 4/24/2021 at 5:34 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

I have no desire to try to change what Scripture says.  I would fear that God would strike me dead if I had such a mentality.  But, I am very highly interested in interpreting correctly what Scripture says.  I have always liked examples and illustrations.  I have found that much in Scripture that has been wrestled with for centuries can be more easily understood by things that we see and experience in our day to day lives.  The religious hierarchy of Jesus' day was steeped in Scripture and a country mile away from getting it.  Jesus came along and used everyday examples to help the down to earth people get it.

You're probably right. Maybe the resistance I raise is based on my past and that might be unfair in some cases. I have overcorrected before and I know that because the evidence fit the suggestion.  

So...story time. lol

Back when I was a wide eyed, and naive, new believer I hung on every word preached in every church. Pastors, priests, missionaries, etc. spoke and I listened. Radio sermons were a favorite of mine. It was strangely safe and comforting to hear Andrew Womack talk about the goat for Azazel day after day, week after week.

And what believer didn't get up when Brother Shambach said, "I call the power of Jesus Christ alive into your being..." at the end of every sermon. I used to love to hear that. And the great Greek scholar Spiros Zodhiates was quite the inspiration on a weekly basis.

I didn't discriminate either. Stanley, Swaggart, Roberts, even Copeland were listened to. Must have read Late Great Planet Earth 3-4 times, used it as a study guide as well.

I was in awe of the pastor and elders at the local church I went to. How could they know so much and have an answer for everything?, I would think. They were usually so calm and assured, it was another place I felt safe and wanted. My wife and I were part of something. We had friends who came over and invited us to their place, we were at all the functions and even got married in that community. 

The pastor there was superbly diligent exhorting the congregants to write down the references to scripture he would then expound upon so later, at home, we could read the verse/verses or passage he quoted in the sermon. I didn't do that at first, or second. Why? I trusted these people. They were warm, friendly and a family that seemed to just like me and my wife. We were all part of each others lives and I tell you that is the greatest feeling in the world. 

Over time I did begin looking up the references from the sermons. I was confused at first as I wasn't getting it. Best to just trust the Lord had me right where He wanted me. But I persisted. Soon I was reading the entire chapter from whence the verse came and doing this for every reference. I felt pretty stupid as I wasn't seeing what was being said in the sermons in the scripture quoted. Not in the verse preceding or following, many times not even in the chapter.

So I began to ask. My downfall. My father dislikes me to this day because of one word I repeated too often; Why? He didn't like that too much and the answer was almost always, "Because I said so." Extremely unsatisfying.

I would get some explanation from the pastor that was more or less what I heard from 10:30-12 in the morning every Sunday. Again, unsatisfying. At that time in my life, since I wasn't as informed as the others, I had to make a decision about what I was seeing and hearing based on what I knew.

Since the source material was in the hands of both the pastor and I, it was decided what was being said should align with the source. Sadly, it did not. This then extended to all the people I heard preach. What a crushing let down. It's almost like I would have been better off to remain ignorant, to remain a part of something, not to have a weight applied and be isolated.

What I see in the church at large today is agreement on the death and resurrection of Jesus and salvation through Him and Him alone. But even that's not true in every case. 

So I heard all the stories, metaphors, analogies, similes, real world examples, etc., etc. 

Some are great and profound. Not when they are replacements, however. Maybe I'm wounded still and too cautious. 

Thanks for listening.

Truly Diaste, I can empathize with what your experience has been.  All along the way of reading your story, I could make connections with similar that I have experienced.  I think it is all a part of what is popularly referred to these days as "the learning curve."  The realm of our interest has that curve, and it is one with which Satan has an especially high interest, so we have to be careful.  Our consolation is that while it can be so challenging, it is so very rewarding.

One thing I've learned is that everyone will give their own account to God.  Pastors that I've had, that I may have liked but felt were wrong, will all give their account.  And, I will give mine.

My dad will give his account, and I will give mine.  I don't know how many things I used to believe that I no longer do, simply because I have gone further down the path of understanding.  I wonder sometimes about adults that surrounded me in my childhood, whose every word I would easily accept, how far they actually got down their own path of understanding.  I think of my beloved grandfather.  He had his Bible and The Layman's Bible Encyclopedia.  That's all.  I would see him from time to time sit and read in his Bible.  But, not nearly on the level that I do.  Not even close.  My dad was a very strict religious man, like a Pharisee in some ways, and I deeply resented him when I left home at 18.  Later, I came to realize that he did love me and did what he thought was best.  He had his Bible, a Strong's Concordance, a Nave's Topical Bible, and a Matthew Henry's Commentary.  That was about it.  And, when I was young, I thought he studied the Bible a lot.  But, nothing like I do---not even in the ballpark.  Me, I've got an extensive library, not to mention what's available on the internet, something my dad and ancestors knew nothing of.  And, to be quite honest Diaste, I could be quite content with just my Bible, a Strong's, and a Webster's.  There's not many books that I would buy again if my library burnt.  I've been down that long path.  In any case, one day I will give an account.  I often wonder how far my son will go on his path of understanding.  Maybe he will go on to get his doctorate, or be a professor.  One thing I want him to know is that before he steps foot in any college or seminary, he better pay close attention to Jesus' words in John 8:31-32, John 16:13, and his old man's life Scripture---Proverbs 3:5-6.  IMHO, that's the first education a newly surrendered person needs to get.  In any case, one day he too will give an account.  And you will.  We all will.

In the meantime---and it can be a mean time---I think the Father is much pleased when His children share their Scripture based thoughts with each other, especially when they do it with Christian charity (I Cor. 13). 

Godspeed brother...I wish I could shake your hand and give you a Christian embrace.

Edited February 3, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Concerning your first sentence, to me this is an easy scriptural deduce.  But, this may help you to see better what I am seeing.  What normal looks like is what it has been for 2000 years---about the same ole same ole.  The COVID pandemic, this is just one of many pandemics that have littered the historical landscape.  It's all an easy Goggle.  I think of wars.  During World War I, were things normal?  As far as the historical landscape goes, it was.  Someone our age, when this war began, would have easily remembered the Civil War.  Someone our age when World War II began could easily have fought in World War I.  But, no one our age has ever seen anything take place like what John saw with the opening of the 6th Seal, the sounding of the 1st Trumpet, the 2nd Trumpet, the 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th trumpets---not even close.  For 2000 years, there have been ebbs and tides.  These are normal.  However, no such is even remotely in the category of any tsunami.  And, in 2000 years, we've never had a tsunami like those that will occur with the opening of the 6th Seal and what lies beyond.

It's all over at the 6th seal isn't it? Jesus is here, the people of the earth are in fear of Him who sits on the throne; and the Lamb. At this point man's rule is done and Jesus is pleading with the people of earth to repent; using stringent means to do so.

It would seem we have a chronology in chapters 14-16 of Revelation. This is after the 6th seal, before the bowls and the the bowls of wrath poured out. Only during this part of the narrative is this judgment of the earth. Up to the point of the 6th seal and the Signs it's business as usual as Jesus says in Matt 24:

" 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage

up to the day Noah entered the ark. 

39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away.

So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man"

This is a good example where telling stories replaces the truth of Jesus.

Jesus says it's going to be just like always, until the coming of the Son of Man.

You can cite all the examples of why you believe what you believe but it doesn't change what's written Matt 24:38-39.

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

Do you not see any connection with Joel's prophecies and a Day of the Lord that was looming even in Joel's day?

The Day of the Lord has been looming since the Fall. If you cannot see the parallels between Joel, three whole chapters, and Revelation then I feel doctrine has replaced fact. 

[not an echo]

On 4/24/2021 at 8:07 PM, Da Puppers said:

On 4/24/2021 at 5:22 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Da Puppers,

Hey, I understand all about being spread thin. 

After thinking on your reply, I guess my biggest question connects mostly with the first part of your concluding sentence, "The DOTL does not begin until the 7th Trumpet..."  How do you harmonize this with the preceding trumpets and what Paul says in I Thessalonians 5:

 2  For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

 3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety;  then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child;  and they shall not escape.

Are you believing that the Day of the Lord will not begin until the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 11:15), even when "The second woe is past...(Rev. 11:14), not to mention everything else that will have happened up until then? 

Let me start with: 

2Pe 3:10 KJV But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

A key point,  (that I think you agree with me on)  is the phrase,  "in the which".  WHEN the DOTL comes,  the heavens & Earth don't immediately pass away or melt with fervent heat.  But the DOTL still came like a thief in the night.   It came/ comes unawares.   It does not simply mean that it comes without warning.   To those who fall into the category "like a thief", it means that it (DotL) came,  passed tense, and you didn't know it until later,  when it was too late to be ready.  

Hello Da Puppers,

When I consider the parallel that Jesus made between His coming and "the thief" (Matt. 24:42-44) and what Peter said concerning the DOTL coming "as a thief in the night" (II Pet. 3:10), I think in terms of suddenly and unexpectedly.  It seems to me that any realization of the coming of the DOTL after the fact doesn't quite capture the essence of what Jesus and Peter is saying.  If I am understanding what you are saying, it would be like the flood beginning, and those outside the ark not really realizing it until later.  See what I mean?  With this thought foremost in my mind, I'm not yet seeing how the rest of your post can truly be made to harmonize with everything we find in Scripture.  Of course, I may be misunderstanding you on something.

[not an echo]

On 4/25/2021 at 6:01 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/24/2021 at 5:08 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Concerning your first sentence, to me this is an easy scriptural deduce.  But, this may help you to see better what I am seeing.  What normal looks like is what it has been for 2000 years---about the same ole same ole.  The COVID pandemic, this is just one of many pandemics that have littered the historical landscape.  It's all an easy Goggle.  I think of wars.  During World War I, were things normal?  As far as the historical landscape goes, it was.  Someone our age, when this war began, would have easily remembered the Civil War.  Someone our age when World War II began could easily have fought in World War I.  But, no one our age has ever seen anything take place like what John saw with the opening of the 6th Seal, the sounding of the 1st Trumpet, the 2nd Trumpet, the 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th trumpets---not even close.  For 2000 years, there have been ebbs and tides.  These are normal.  However, no such is even remotely in the category of any tsunami.  And, in 2000 years, we've never had a tsunami like those that will occur with the opening of the 6th Seal and what lies beyond.

Expand  

It's all over at the 6th seal isn't it? Jesus is here, the people of the earth are in fear of Him who sits on the throne; and the Lamb. At this point man's rule is done and Jesus is pleading with the people of earth to repent; using stringent means to do so.

It would seem we have a chronology in chapters 14-16 of Revelation. This is after the 6th seal, before the bowls and the the bowls of wrath poured out. Only during this part of the narrative is this judgment of the earth. Up to the point of the 6th seal and the Signs it's business as usual as Jesus says in Matt 24:

" 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage

up to the day Noah entered the ark. 

39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away.

So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man"

This is a good example where telling stories replaces the truth of Jesus.

Jesus says it's going to be just like always, until the coming of the Son of Man.

You can cite all the examples of why you believe what you believe but it doesn't change what's written Matt 24:38-39.

Hello Diaste,

Concerning your first sentence, I would have to say yes, as far as the normal that we know, which has been the normal for some 2000 years now.  This will all be over with the opening of the 6th Seal.  In accord with Joel's prophecy, spoken by Peter on the Day of Pentecost, "the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable Day of the Lord come" (Acts 2:20).  This is fulfilled to the day, as we see these celestial phenomena occur with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12) and hear the cry of the world, "For the great Day of His Wrath is come;  and who shall be able to stand" (Rev. 6:17).  In accord with my interpretation that the 7th Seal can be opened the same day as the 6th Seal, the Day of the Lord will have begun indeed.

When the connection is made between the whole of the event of the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17) and Jesus' words in Matthew 24:29-31, we can understand that it is the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30/Rev. 6:15-16) that will occur at this time, as well as the sounding of the Trump of God (Matt. 24:31; I Thess. 4:16).  The resurrection and the rapture will happen in concert with the sounding of this trumpet (Matt. 24:31; I Thess. 4:16-17), likewise, just before the beginning of the Day of the Lord---in close harmony with Paul's words (I Thess. 5:1-3ff).

This same day that the last seal of the Seven Sealed Book is opened, preparations will begin to be made for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week, until all is ready (Rev. 8:2-9:21).  When all is ready, we see "a little book open" (Rev. 10:1-2), which I interpret to be the little book of Daniel (Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  Upon John's digesting of Daniel's prophecies (Rev. 10:8-10), we immediately see evidence of the manifestation of the Abomination of Desolation (Rev. 11:1;  II Thess. 2:4;  Matt. 24:15) and the two 3-1/2 year periods of Daniel's 70th Week (Rev. 11:2-3; Dan. 9:27).  With the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, we have the period heralded which will result in the wrapping of everything up connected with this present world, as declared to "the prophets" (Rev. 10:7).  We have the summary of this period and the accompanying rejoicing in Heaven shown in conjunction with the actual sounding of the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 11:15-19).  Quite appropriately, this period is expounded in the chapters which follow, Revelation 12-20.  This period includes, among other things, the last 3-1/2 years of Daniel's 70th Week, Christ's Second Advent, Christ's Millennial Reign, and the Last Judgment.

After this, time will give way to eternity, and for all of God's children, it will be together with God and all the hosts of Heaven, happily ever after, world without end (Rev. 21-22).

Well Diaste, I kinda got started and didn't find a good stopping place, until I had done a little walk through---all because of your first sentence. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 4/25/2021 at 6:01 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/24/2021 at 5:08 PM, not an echo said:

Do you not see any connection with Joel's prophecies and a Day of the Lord that was looming even in Joel's day?

The Day of the Lord has been looming since the Fall. If you cannot see the parallels between Joel, three whole chapters, and Revelation then I feel doctrine has replaced fact. 

Now Diaste, if I didn't know better, I would almost take it that you are saying that the Day of the Lord is imminent.  Hey, you know I can buy into that!

Annnyway, I've never seen you make an acknowledgment that there is both an "at hand" (Joel 1:15) and a "it shall come to pass afterward" (2:28) Day of the Lord being prophesied in the book of Joel.  Further, I just don't see what happens in chapter 1 as really dovetailing with the 1st and 3rd trumpets.  It seems odd to me that the locust/worm activity of chapter 1 would be even partly involved in what happens with the 1st or 3rd trumpets (when not even mentioned), but then, when locusts are mentioned in connection with a trumpet, they are commanded not to hurt "the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree" (5th Trumpet/Rev. 9:4).  Do you see what I mean?

Also, the Day of the Lord of Joel 1 seems apparent to be of a nation focus, more specifically, the land of Israel, as indicated by "My land" (vs. 6), "My vine" and "My fig tree" (vs. 7) and the references to the temple (e.g., vss. 9, 13-14).  However, the Day of the Lord destruction of Revelation 8 seems apparent to be Earth focused, more specifically, the "third part" (11 times/Rev. 8:7-12), and with no mention or hint of Israel or the temple.

Moreover, Peter makes for us the connection of Joel's Day of the Lord prophecy that actually pertains to what is looming in these last days of which we are a part.  For me, what I have tried to show makes for sound doctrine, based upon the facts of Scripture.  I know you must feel the same about the way you are seeing things.  I just hope you will take another look, in consideration of things that I bring out.  I'll do the same...

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Now Diaste, if I didn't know better, I would almost take it that you are saying that the Day of the Lord is imminent.  Hey, you know I can buy into that!

Hmm...

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Annnyway, I've never seen you make an acknowledgment that there is both an "at hand" (Joel 1:15) and a "it shall come to pass afterward" (2:28) Day of the Lord being prophesied in the book of Joel.  Further, I just don't see what happens in chapter 1 as really dovetailing with the 1st and 3rd trumpets.  It seems odd to me that the locust/worm activity of chapter 1 would be even partly involved in what happens with the 1st or 3rd trumpets (when not even mentioned), but then, when locusts are mentioned in connection with a trumpet, they are commanded not to hurt "the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree" (5th Trumpet/Rev. 9:4).  Do you see what I mean?

Well...yeah. It's at hand when the other conditions exist.

Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD [is] at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

16Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, [yea], joy and gladness from the house of our God?

Verse 16 is a rhetorical question. (yes, call me on that! :)) The 'at hand' is when verse 16 occurs. And remember Joel is seeing the future in a vision. It's not an at hand in real time, it's an at hand in a vision of the future.

I don't see an issue with Joel 1 or Rev 8-9. As I pointed out the reference to the destructive power of the pestilence is allegorical to the army mentioned here:

"6For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth [are] the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.

7He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast [it] away; the branches thereof are made white."

And what's to say the 1st and 5th trump occur do not occur a year or two apart? There is a 7 year end of the age span. The 1st trump occurs early on, in the first year and it's still two full years until the midpoint. And who's to say the 5th trump doesn't occur in the last half of the week, maybe 4 years after the 1st trump?

If you  recall, I said Joel is pointing out all the green grass is gone at the midpoint. This could happen two years before without any logical contradictions. One year the grass is all burned. One year to plant and harvest. There could be 18 months with no food grasses and burned and scorched trees. But then in the 3rd year the trees and grass have come back, then the 5th trump. 

I would argue the 5th trump only occurs after the midpoint.

I don't know the exact timing of the events of the end of the age; no one does. I'm arguing from the position of the concurrent successive nature of seals and trumps in conjunction; with the bowl events at the end after the 7th trump, within the effects of the 7th seal. However that shakes out I don't know.

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Also, the Day of the Lord of Joel 1 seems apparent to be of a nation focus, more specifically, the land of Israel, as indicated by "My land" (vs. 6), "My vine" and "My fig tree" (vs. 7) and the references to the temple (e.g., vss. 9, 13-14).  However, the Day of the Lord destruction of Revelation 8 seems apparent to be Earth focused, more specifically, the "third part" (11 times/Rev. 8:7-12), and with no mention or hint of Israel or the temple.

"No mention" is not proof of non existence. This is a regular theme across the Worthy forum. It's not a proper approach. 

Nothing prohibits my land, my vine and my fig tree interpreted as analogous to the congregation. Especially since Joel begins with, "The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel."

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Moreover, Peter makes for us the connection of Joel's Day of the Lord prophecy that actually pertains to what is looming in these last days of which we are a part.  For me, what I have tried to show makes for sound doctrine, based upon the facts of Scripture.  I know you must feel the same about the way you are seeing things.  I just hope you will take another look, in consideration of things that I bring out.  I'll do the same...

Well, Peter references Joel 2.

And afterward, I will pour out My Spirit on all people.

Your sons and daughters will prophesy,

After what? After what's written in Joel 2? Peter may have been correct in referring to Joel 2. Maybe we are waiting for the fullness of this prophecy. It's a bit unclear for me just what is happening here so I'm not fully decided.

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Concerning your first sentence, I would have to say yes, as far as the normal that we know, which has been the normal for some 2000 years now.  This will all be over with the opening of the 6th Seal.  In accord with Joel's prophecy, spoken by Peter on the Day of Pentecost, "the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable Day of the Lord come" (Acts 2:20).  This is fulfilled to the day, as we see these celestial phenomena occur with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12) and hear the cry of the world, "For the great Day of His Wrath is come;  and who shall be able to stand" (Rev. 6:17).  In accord with my interpretation that the 7th Seal can be opened the same day as the 6th Seal, the Day of the Lord will have begun indeed.

When the connection is made between the whole of the event of the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17) and Jesus' words in Matthew 24:29-31, we can understand that it is the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30/Rev. 6:15-16) that will occur at this time, as well as the sounding of the Trump of God (Matt. 24:31; I Thess. 4:16).  The resurrection and the rapture will happen in concert with the sounding of this trumpet (Matt. 24:31; I Thess. 4:16-17), likewise, just before the beginning of the Day of the Lord, in close harmony with Paul's words (I Thess. 5:1-3ff).

Agreed.

16 hours ago, not an echo said:

This same day that the last seal of the Seven Sealed Book is opened, preparations will begin to be made for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week, until all is ready (Rev. 8:2-9:21).  When all is ready, we see "a little book open" (Rev. 10:1-2), which I interpret to be the little book of Daniel (Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  Upon John's digesting of Daniel's prophecies (Rev. 10:8-10), we immediately see evidence of the manifestation of the Abomination of Desolation (Rev. 11:1; II Thess. 2:4; Matt. 24:15), and the two 3-1/2 year periods of Daniel's 70th Week (Rev. 11:2-3; Dan. 9:27). 

Hmm...I just can't see the seals as paralleling 2000 years.

16 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

With the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, we have the period heralded which will result in the wrapping of everything up connected with this present world, as declared to "the prophets" (Rev. 10:7).  We have the summary of this period and the accompanying rejoicing in Heaven shown in conjunction with the actual sounding of the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 11:15-19).  Quite appropriately, this period is expounded in the chapters which follow, Revelation 12-20.  This period includes, among other things, the last 3-1/2 years of Daniel's 70th Week, Christ's Second Coming, Christ's Millennial Reign, and the Last Judgment.

After this, time will give way to eternity, and for all of God's children, it will be together with God and all the hosts of Heaven, happily ever after, world without end (Rev. 21-22).

Well Diaste, I kinda got started and didn't find a good stopping place, until I had done a little walk through---all because of your first sentence. 

 

[not an echo]

On 4/26/2021 at 3:00 PM, Da Puppers said:

On 4/26/2021 at 11:49 AM, not an echo said:

Hello Da Puppers,

When I consider the parallel that Jesus made between His coming and "the thief" (Matt. 24:42-44) and what Peter said concerning the DOTL coming "as a thief in the night" (II Pet. 3:10), I think in terms of suddenly and unexpectedly.  It seems to me that any realization of the coming of the DOTL after the fact doesn't quite capture the essence of what Jesus and Peter is saying.  If I am understanding what you are saying, it would be like the flood beginning, and those outside the ark not really realizing it until later.  See what I mean?  With this thought foremost in my mind, I'm not yet seeing how the rest of your post can truly be made to harmonize with everything we find in Scripture.  Of course, I may be misunderstanding you on something.

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Let me see if I can be a little more convincing.   I want to again focus on the words,  ginosko and eido, translated generally as "know".    I will retranslate using the word understand for ginosko and the experience for eido to help with your understanding. 

Mat 24:32-34 KJV ³² Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye "understand" that summer is nigh: ³³ So likewise ye, when ye shall "experience" all these things, "understand" that it is near, even at the doors. ³⁴ Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be "understood".

 In these verses Jesus makes the point that the key to understanding (ginosko)  WHEN the coming of the Lord IS NEAR,  is when you (this generation)  shall experience all these things.   I.e., you will know (ginosko)  that my coming is near when this generation knows(experiences) all these things. 

Mat 24:36-44 KJV ³⁶ But of that day and hour [has] no man "experienced", no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Here we see the word,  eido/experience (knoweth) and not the word ginosko/ understand.  Jesus is telling us that no one has prior experience (knoweth)  of the sum of events of those days.   This is alluding back to the words of Jesus about the great tribulation,  

Hello Da Puppers,

I have considered the evidence that you have put forth, but for me, it falls short of making the case you are trying to make.  I know that you have probably got similar thoughts concerning the evidence I have put forth.   Hey, but I'm not throwing your evidence out.  I would just need to see something more...

A point of note is the point you open with concerning the parable of the fig tree.  It seems that you are not including the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" and the accompanying signs (Matt. 24:29-31) as being a part of the "all these things" of the fig tree parable (Matt. 24:32-34).  I'm also kinda curious as to whether you see a difference in what Jesus says concerning the event of His Sign Appearance (Matt. 24:29-51/Rev. 6:12-7:17) and the event of His Second Advent (Matt. 24:27-28/Rev. 19:11-21).

I think it would be helpful for me to see a more complete overview of your understanding, as it connects with the timing of the rapture.  Have you got a thread you can point me to where you give something like a bird's-eye view of your interpretations?  I would invite you to look at my thread, A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).  This is like a master thread of my interpretations that, not only gives a bird's-eye view, but also some bug's-eye views (if you will), of various aspects of my understanding that I have been able to put forth on the forum so far.

Edited February 6, 2023 by not an echo
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