The concept of the original sin

[Aries2020]

10 hours ago, Peterlag said:

I believe God gave us a new nature when we are born again and that this is what the apostle Paul taught. Then where did this idea come from that we are still sinners by nature, and that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual, but still alive to sin whereby we must with much effort, frustration, and failure be in a battle with our sin nature the rest of our lives? Who taught us that it's not the spirit that has become our new nature, but that after we received Christ within, we still have the old sin nature left as we live the rest of our lives trying to restrain it? If the apostle Paul taught that we do experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ, and that it’s dead and gone and therefore we are dead to sin? Then where did this idea come from that we are still alive to sin? Could it have come from these guys...

The concept of the original sin was first alluded to in the second century by Irenaeus, (Bishop of Lyon) who was working for the Catholics and not for the apostle Paul. Some two hundred years later another church father who went by the name of Augustine, (Bishop of Hippo) whose writings shaped and developed the doctrine of sin as he considered that humanity shared in Adam's sin. Augustine's formulation of the original sin after the year of 412 was popular among protestant reformer's such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated the original sin with a hurtful desire meaning that it persisted even after baptism and therefore completely destroyed the freedom to do good. At first Augustine, said that free will was weakened, but not destroyed by the original sin. But after the year of 412 this concept changed to a loss of free will except to sin, and it's this Augustine's concept that influenced the development of the western church and western philosophy and indirectly all of western Christianity.

The Catholic church declared baptism by imparting the life of Christ's grace, and thereby erasing the original sin, and then that would allow one back toward God. The thinking that the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist and summon the human to spiritual battle, and therefore weakened and diminished by Adam's fall, and still free will was not destroyed in the human race. Irenaeus, put forth his doctrine of the original sin, which is rather mild compared with what would later be found in the writings of Augustine. One recurring theme in Irenaeus, is his view that Adam, in his transgression is essentially a child who merely partook of the tree ahead of his time. For Irenaeus, knowing good and evil was an integral aspect of human nature; the "sin" of Adam, was snatching at the fruit of the tree rather than waiting for it as a gift from God.

In the years of 354 to 430 Augustine, taught that Adam's sin is transmitted by concupiscence, or a "hurtful desire" resulting in humanity becoming condemned with an enfeebled, though not destroyed freedom of will. When Adam sinned, human nature was therefore transformed, and Adam and Eve via sexual reproduction recreated human nature. Their descendants now live in sin, in the form of concupiscence, a term Augustine, used in a metaphysical and not a psychological sense. Augustine, insisted that concupiscence was not a being but a bad quality, meaning a wound. He admitted that sexual concupiscence (libido) might have been present in the perfect human nature in paradise, and that only later it became disobedient to the human will as a result of the first couple's disobedience to God's will in the original sin. In Augustine's view (termed "realism") all of humanity was really present in Adam, when he sinned and therefore all have sinned.

Augustine, was the first to add the concept of inherited guilt from Adam, whereby an infant was eternally damned at birth. Augustine, held the traditional view that free will was weakened, but not destroyed by the original sin until he converted in 412 to the Stoic view that humanity had no free will except to sin, which was the result of his later thinking on infant baptism. Augustine, believed that unbaptized infants go to hell as a consequence of the original sin. The Latin church fathers who followed Augustine, adopted his position, which became a point of reference for Latin theologians in the middle ages. In the later medieval period, some theologians continued to hold Augustine's view and others held that unbaptized infants suffered no pain at all.

Augustine, states that God's grace and not human free will is responsible for everything that pertains to salvation and that includes even our faith. We are often told that people suffer because they deserve it. And we seem to be able to go into great explanations expressing a confidence in God's absolute sovereignty, defined here as control, that seems to provide many believers with a great deal of security. We teach in our churches that everything is under God's control, and thereby everything is proceeding as divinely planned, and that somehow it all fits together. This concept did not attain the status of a universal explanation until years after a man was born on the planet who was called Augustine.

It's indeed historically true that what has constituted the most frequent explanation in the church and in western culture for why people suffer is due to the fact that a man was born on the planet called Augustine. And so this concept of God being in control of both good and evil is why we often consider a secret "divine blueprint" behind everything that is both good and evil being somehow an extension of God's good (but very mysterious) will. Opposition to Augustine's ideas about the original sin, which he had developed arose rapidly, and after a long and bitter struggle several councils, especially the second council of Orange in the year of 529, confirmed the general principles of Augustine's teaching within western Christianity. However, the church did not entirely endorse Augustine, and even some of Augustine's followers identified the original sin differently even after Augustine's authority was accepted.

I see the "sin nature" as something that existed before Jesus Christ destroyed it when the spirit of Christ came within the believer. This spirit is indeed a life form that is in all Christians and it seems to me one cannot understand and therefore function or be in the spirit if our old nature (which is dead) thinks in it's unrenewed mind that it suppose to be fighting against the new nature. Paul wrote in Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:" That's what I'm talking about. I now understand being in Christ is being in the spirit and neither of them (in Christ or in the spirit) has anything to do with the darn flesh. It now seems perfectly clear to walk in the spirit is the same as putting on the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so in my mind the 4 verses below fit perfectly. Every single person I know has told me about Romans 7 when I tell them I do not believe Paul taught about a "sin nature" for the Christian. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Galatians 5:16,18
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Greetings,

Since people don’t genetically inherit Adam and Eves fallen nature, why do people born on the earth atomically go to hell before they sin?

Peace.

 

[Waggles]

1 hour ago, Aries2020 said:

why do people born on the earth atomically go to hell before they sin?

Do they? 

[Aries2020]

5 minutes ago, Waggles said:

Do they? 

greetings,

what is your understanding? 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Aries2020

[Waggles]

36 minutes ago, Aries2020 said:

greetings,

what is your understanding? 

it seems to me that many Christians who are recipients of grace and mercy, the forgiveness of sins take great delight in desiring that everybody else should burn in a lake of fire. 

Quick to judge and condemn all others when they ought to be examining themselves as to their own judgement.

There are people who directly refuse to believe the gospel of salvation when it has been preached to them and there are people who knowingly do wickedness. The world is full of deliberately sinful peoples that harm others and/or harm their own soul. But NOT everybody who has ever lived comes under this.

As a sociologist and community worker I have observed that many many peoples, often children, are extremely damaged and have never had a chance at growing up straight and without blemish. Millions upon millions of peoples have lived in lifelong drudgery and oppression by upper castes and classes, and landlords. Millions of children have been destroyed humanly by their parents and their cultures. Child marriages for example, and sex slavery. 

Zechariah 7:8 And the word of the Lord came to Zechari′ah, saying, 9 “Thus says the Lord of hosts, Render true judgments, show kindness and mercy each to his brother, 10 do not oppress the widow, the fatherless, the sojourner, or the poor; and let none of you devise evil against his brother in your heart.” 

I believe that the scriptural references about sinners and the wicked apply mostly to those who are of Israel (Moses and the Law) and those who are Christians and know of doing righteousness and living for God. The true God not other gods. 

There also are those who openly despise this and attack Christians and the gospel and bring condemnation upon themselves for doing so. Hating Jesus and hating the Father. 

But again millions and millions of peoples who have ever lived from day one until now do not come under the banner of Israel or the Church (body of Christ). Their fate is not automatic for there will be a second resurrection and another throne of judgement for all outside the first resurrection: 

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. 

Here we learn that other peoples had their names written in the books and were judged by what they had done - not an automatic conveyor belt for all into the lake of fire. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Waggles

[Aries2020]

21 minutes ago, Waggles said:

it seems to me that many Christians who are recipients of grace and mercy, the forgiveness of sins take great delight in desiring that everybody else should burn in a lake of fire. 

Quick to judge and condemn all others when they ought to be examining themselves as to their own judgement.

There are people who directly refuse to believe the gospel of salvation when it has been preached to them and there are people who knowingly do wickedness. The world is full of deliberately sinful peoples that harm others and/or harm their own soul. But everybody who has ever lived comes under this.

As a sociologist and community worker in the real world I have observed that many many peoples, often children, are extremely damaged and have never had a chance at growing up straight and without blemish. Millions upon millions of peoples have lived in lifelong drudgery and oppression by upper castes and classes, and landlords. 

Zechariah 7:8 And the word of the Lord came to Zechari′ah, saying, 9 “Thus says the Lord of hosts, Render true judgments, show kindness and mercy each to his brother, 10 do not oppress the widow, the fatherless, the sojourner, or the poor; and let none of you devise evil against his brother in your heart.” 

I believe that the scriptural references about sinners and the wicked apply mostly to those who are of Israel (Moses and the Law) and those who are Christians and know of doing righteousness and living for God.

There also are those who openly despise this and attack Christians and the gospel and bring condemnation upon themselves for doing so. Hating Jesus and hating the Father. 

But again millions and millions of peoples who have ever lived from day one until now do not come under the banner of Israel or the Church (body of Christ). Their fate is not automatic for there will be a second resurrection and another throne of judgement for all outside the first resurrection: 

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. 

Here we learn that other peoples had their names written in the books and were judged by what they had done - not an automatic conveyor belt for all into the lake of fire. 

Thank you for sharing your understanding.

You are referring to people that hear the good news or make decisions.  

Im referring to people born on earth that have no idea about sin, just growing up maybe up to 10 years old as an example.

Everyone's born in the kingdom of darkness unless your parents are practising Christians. 

That why i said if the nature of sin is not passed on from parent to child.

How are people deemed guilty that dont understand sin or before they receive salvation?  

Edited April 1, 2021 by Aries2020

[Waggles]

1 hour ago, Aries2020 said:

How are people deemed guilty that don't understand sin or before they receive salvation?

But what I wrote covers this. Young children, babies and the severely mentally impaired really do not have much of a life to run amok in. Although two year olds can be really naughty. 

I do not believe that thousands of millions of peoples, young or old, will perish for the sake of saving a fraction of humanity. 

Given that the world has been allowed to be ruled by satan and the fallen angels (except for Israel) that puts all of human kind at a very serious spiritual disadvantage. It is not a level playing field. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Waggles

[Aries2020]

43 minutes ago, Waggles said:

But what I wrote covers this. Young children, babies and the severely mentally impaired really do not have much of a life to run amok in. Although two year olds can be really naughty. 

I do not believe that thousands of millions of peoples, young or old, will perish for the sake of saving a fraction of humanity. 

Given that the world has been allowed to be ruled by satan and the fallen angels (except for Israel) that puts all of human kind at a very serious spiritual disadvantage. It is not a level playing field. 

I did notice you said But NOT everybody who has ever lived comes under this and then you said But again millions and millions of peoples who have ever lived from day one until now do not come under the banner of Israel or the Church (body of Christ). Their fate is not automatic for there will be a second resurrection and another throne of judgement for all outside the first resurrection: 

So where did everyone go that weren't following God before the first covenant? And where did the people go that weren't following God after the first covenant before Jesus was conceived?

Edited April 1, 2021 by Aries2020

[Waggles]

19 minutes ago, Aries2020 said:

So where did everyone go that weren't following God before the first covenant? And where did the people go that weren't following God after the first covenant before Jesus was conceived?

What do you mean by where did everybody go? 

The Bible teaches us that when people die their souls go to Sheol (grave, Hades and Hell). 

As for me, I shall behold thy face in righteousness;
    when I awake, I shall be satisfied with beholding thy form. [Psalm 17:15] 

13 But go your way till the end; and you shall rest, and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.  [Daniel 12:]

[Aries2020]

4 minutes ago, Waggles said:

What do you mean by where did everybody go? 

The Bible teaches us that when people die their souls go to Sheol (grave, Hades and Hell). 

As for me, I shall behold thy face in righteousness;
    when I awake, I shall be satisfied with beholding thy form. [Psalm 17:15] 

13 But go your way till the end; and you shall rest, and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.  [Daniel 12:]

Sorry when they died all the other nations that were not Israel before the covenant and all the nations that weren't Israel after the covenant if they went to hell why did they go do hell?   

[appy]

Having a sin nature refers to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin. Given an option to please God or ourselves, we naturally choose to do our own thing. Don't confuse this with the concept of disposition. Two different things. Sin is not something taught but something that comes naturally. And the reason it is called a sin nature. Because sin entered into Adam, he through being federal headship passed the propensity to sin to all mankind. The bible does indeed teach that all of humanity is born with Adam's sin nature.

The bible teaches that we are born with a sin nature. God imputed Adam's sin to all mankind because Adam is the head and representative (federal headship) of all mankind so to speak. Adam’s sin brought condemnation on all. This is not stated outright in Scripture, but the concept of federal headship can be understood to be implied in scripture.

Scripture definitely implies that death and separation began with Adam's sin, and thus all mankind inherited Adam's sin nature. Scripture does not explain how sin nature; is passed on to all the rest of mankind. Only that it is. And this helps us to understand the truth that Jesus' righteousness can be imputed to sinners due to His grace just as Adam's sin has been imputed to all mankind.

Psalms 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Psalm 58:3
Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

Romans 5:14

Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

 

Romans 5:17-19

For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!  Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.  For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

1 Corinthians 15:21,22
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:18,19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.   For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.