80% of Christians Do Not Hold to a PreTrib Rapture

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Page 14 in this topic.

Thanks. Pretty good summary.

[WilliamL]

On 6/7/2021 at 8:42 AM, The Light said:

On 6/6/2021 at 2:14 PM, WilliamL said:

Noah entered the ark twice. Jesus was referring to the second time. Read Gen. 7:7-13 very carefully.

Noah, his family and all the animals entered the ark, as instructed, 7 days BEFORE the flood.

You need to read Gen 7 very carefully.

Gen. 7:1 Then the LORD said to Noah, [1] “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation. ... 4 For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights... 5 And [1] Noah did according to all that the LORD commanded him. ... 10 And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the earth. ... 13 [2] On the very same day Noah ... entered the ark.

Book of Jasher, Chapter 6:1 At that time, after the death of Methuselah, the Lord said to Noah, Go thou with thy household into the ark; behold I will gather to thee all the animals of the earth, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and they shall all come and surround the ark. ... 3 And the Lord brought this about on the next day, and animals, beasts and fowls came in great multitudes and surrounded the ark. ...  11 And on that day, the Lord caused the whole earth to shake, and the sun darkened, and the foundations of the world raged, and the whole earth was moved violently, and the lightning flashed, and the thunder roared, and all the fountains in the earth were broken up, such as was not known to the inhabitants before; and God did this mighty act, in order to terrify the sons of men, that there might be no more evil upon earth. ... 12 And still the sons of men would not return from their evil ways, and they increased the anger of the Lord at that time, and did not even direct their hearts to all this. ... 13 And at the end of seven days, in the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, the waters of the flood were upon the earth. 14 And all the fountains of the deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened, and the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. 15 And Noah and his household, and all the living creatures that were with him, came into the ark on account of the waters of the flood, and the Lord shut him in.

Moses gave the condensed version, Jasher provides the fuller account. Both say Noah went into the ark twice. Jesus referred to the second entry, the more significant one:

Matthew 24:38 “For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."

Why didn't they know? because they WOULD NOT HEAR THE WARNINGS OF NOAH, NOR EVEN HEED THE CATACLYSMIC WARNING IN THE NATURAL WORLD!

And the same will take place in our age. People won't listen no matter how great the warnings will be.

1 Thes. 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

Edited June 10, 2021 by WilliamL

[Diaste]

On 6/9/2021 at 5:11 AM, Selah7 said:

I’m just now coming into this conversation.  

I’ve just recently started to wonder if many who say they believe in the rapture and quote the above scriptures, are actually just using the word “rapture” instead of the words “Second Coming (Second Advent).”  Maybe we’re in the same boat after all!

I do think some are focused on the lesser thing as well. I feel many don't want to see Jesus return but rather be gathered up in that pre-return secret gathering, the one that isn't happening. 

And I agree the Return and the gathering are two very different things, separate events, that happen very near to each other. Almost like they can't be distinguished in time. Just like the groom appears and takes the bride away to the wedding so it will be when Jesus returns.

 

[Diaste]

On 6/9/2021 at 6:15 AM, The Light said:

You seem to want to ignore the fact the there was rain upon the earth 40 days and 40 nights. That is obviously a concluding statement to the paragraph.

Then a new paragraph starts. Verse 13 stands alone and has complete meaning on it own. It tells you that all Noah, his family and all the animals entered the ark on the same day. 

Originally, you fought tooth and nail to tell me that it took Noah 7 days to load the animals. I guess you finally gave that up. Good for you. 

 

It may have taken 7 days to load the ark. Maybe the 7 days was like the 2 minute warning in American football. "It's now down to the last moments, you better focus."

Maybe the animals were there a month or more before. I have loaded animals on trucks when I worked on my family's farm. I can't even imagine trying to get 1000 mammals aboard, much less the vast amount of four footed creatures alone that were on the ark. 

What I know is that the Word of the Lord will never contradict itself. If so, Holy Writ would lose all credibility. So when Scripture says, "...the 17th day of the 2nd month in the 600th year...on that selfsame day...." the people and the animals embarked then the detailed description of Who, What, Where and When is the best account, the most accurate and the correct one. 

In contrast there is no direct statement akin to Gen 7:13-16 telling us Noah entered the ark on any other day but the 17th day of he 2nd month in the 600th year. I don't even see it implied. But that's not really the point of the narrative. It seems to me the idea is when the wrath of God began. This is the lead in:

"In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month, all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12And the rain fell upon the earth for forty days and forty nights." And the focus is the when the flood began. Verse 13 begins, "On that very day..." So on the same day the flood began, God's wrath on the people of the earth that were only thinking evil thoughts continually, those worthy of salvation and escaping God's wrath were secured and safe. 

There's little doubt Noah and family were in the ark on a daily basis. Construction was happening, supplies were stocked, they may have been sleeping in the ark. This group of people worked in and on the ark for a hundred years. Of course Noah was in the ark 7 days before, he was in the ark most weekdays for a century. It's the wrong focus to talk about Noah in the ark before the flood began. The correct focus is when the wrath of God began and the destiny of Noah and family in relation to wrath.

 

[Diaste]

Just now, Diaste said:

You seem to want to ignore the fact the there was rain upon the earth 40 days and 40 nights. That is obviously a concluding statement to the paragraph.

I don't ignore it. 

Many times in scripture God gives the overview then returns to important points in the overview to give further detail. The Genesis 7 story is not a strict chronology. It's chronological with parentheticals. 

Gen 7:1-12 is a timeline. It's also an outline. Genesis is dictated, not a biography. Only in verse 13 do we begin to see the added fact to the previous outline. God was commanding Noah in 1-9 and telling him was was coming and when. Then in 10-12 we see the beginning of the end of the world. 

You still have to deal with, "On that very day..." Which 'very day'? The 17th of the 2nd month in the 600th year of Noah's life. 

[The Light]

On 6/10/2021 at 1:52 PM, WilliamL said:

Gen. 7:1 Then the LORD said to Noah, [1] “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation. ... 4 For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights... 5 And [1] Noah did according to all that the LORD commanded him. ... 10 And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the earth. ... 13 [2] On the very same day Noah ... entered the ark.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's see what's really happening.

Gen 7:1 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

5 And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.

6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

We see in verse 1 that Noah was told: Come thou and all thy house into the ark. Noah is then told that in 7 days the flood will come. We are also told that Noah did what he was commanded to do. And we see that the flood is upon the earth. 

That's the end of the story. What you are doing is grabbing information from another paragraph and trying to change what the story says.

Let's get another view of the same story. 

Gen 7: 

7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Nothing has changed. We get the exact same information. Noah, his family and all the animals enter the ark. It comes to pass after 7 days that the flood is upon the earth. It totally agrees with what has already been written in the first six verses.

Now, let's get more information of the same story.

Gen 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

We get the exact same information, with an added bonus. Noah, his family and all the animals enter the ark on the same day. And the flood is upon the earth.

What day did Noah enter the ark? In the first six verses we can see that Noah was commanded to enter the ark and then we are told for yet 7 days is will rain upon the earth. We are again told in verses 7-10 that Noah and the animals enter and it comes to pass after 7 days the the flood is upon the earth. The fact that we are told in the self same day, Noah, his family, and ALL the animals enter ark, we know that all this happens in one day.........7 days before the flood.

 

The word is clear. Noah enters the ark and is shut in 7 days before the flood.

And just so you know. Revelation is written in the same type pattern, which is why most don't understand the Book of Revelation.

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Edited June 13, 2021 by The Light

[WilliamL]

18 minutes ago, The Light said:

What day did Noah enter the ark? In the first six verses we can see that Noah was commanded to enter the ark and then we are told for yet 7 days is will rain upon the earth. We are again told in verses 7-10 that Noah and the animals enter and it comes to pass after 7 days the the flood is upon the earth. The fact that we are told in the self same day, Noah, his family, and ALL the animals enter ark, we know that all this happens in one day.........7 days before the flood.

You could use a good course in logic, because it is definitely missing here. Remember, the other passage central to this debate was --

Luke 17:26 “And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot... 29 ...on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

People did not stop their activities until the flood came (and until Sodom was destroyed), not 7 days before the flood came. Evil up to the very event of the Wrath of God. But Noah and his family were forewarned by 7 days.

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by WilliamL

[The Light]

1 minute ago, WilliamL said:

You could use a good course in logic, because it is definitely missing here. Remember, the other passage central to this debate was --

I don't appear to be the one dismissing the fact that Noah, his family and all the animals entered the ark 7 days before the flood.

Gen 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

 

1 minute ago, WilliamL said:

Luke 17:26 “And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot... 29 ...on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

People did not stop their activities until the flood came (and until Sodom was destroyed), not 7 days before the flood came. Evil up to the very event of the Wrath of God. But Noah and his family were forewarned by 7 days.

 

I find it odd that you would conclude that "People did not stop their activities until the flood came.

The word clearly tells us that it was until the day that Noah entered the ark, not when the flood came. And we know that Noah entered the ark 7 days before the flood.

 

[WilliamL]

28 minutes ago, The Light said:

The word clearly tells us that it was until the day that Noah entered the ark, not when the flood came. And we know that Noah entered the ark 7 days before the flood.

Yes he did, during [1st time] the time of the atmospheric and earthly cataclysms. And then again, [2nd time] after 7 days, when the actual flood began. Twice. The latter time, Noah entered immediately prior to when God's Wrath began; just as Lot was also delivered immediately prior to the advent of God's Wrath. That day was the one Jesus emphasized, not the one of the previous week, which you say. Must be twice, or you contradict Jesus.

[The Light]

1 minute ago, WilliamL said:

Yes he did, during [1st time] the time of the atmospheric and earthly cataclysms. And then again, [2nd time] after 7 days, when the actual flood began. Twice. The latter time, Noah entered immediately prior to when God's Wrath began; just as Lot was also delivered immediately prior to the advent of God's Wrath. That day was the one Jesus emphasized, not the one of the previous week, which you say. Must be twice, or you contradict Jesus.

First off, we know that Noah entered the ark as commanded AND HE WAS SHUT IN. The happened 7 days before the flood.

Secondly, even as the Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood, we know that the Church will be in heaven before the 70th week of Daniel. We know that because we can see kings and priests in heaven before the throne before the seals are opened.

If you want to bring up Lot, we know that the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. Even so, we know that the twelve tribes across the earth will be in heaven before the wrath of God begins.

So your statement "must be twice, or you contradict Jesus" only means that you don't understand why it is twice. Once for the Church, 7 days before wrath, and once for the 12 tribes, the seed of the woman, the very day destruction or the wrath of God comes.

Twice. Two raptures. One pretrib for the Church and one prewrath for the twelve tribes across the earth. Only the nation of Israel (and unbelievers) goes through the wrath of God and they do so in a place of protection.