Defense of the Mid Trib Rapture

[OakWood]

On 08/06/2016 at 2:21 PM, blevn1 said:

I believe in mid trib rapture because the beast couldnt begin to trick the elect if they werent here also there would be no neeed for the mark of the beast if there wasnt any believers still here. However i think by the time GOD has His wrath poured out we will already be off this earth.

I could buy this. At the moment I'm post-Trib/pre-wrath but mid-Trib is intriguing and I can consider it as an option.

[ghtan]

I came to this view while studying the book of Revelation. I believe John would not have left us without any hint where he understood the rapture to take place. But I found that the few passages that could pass as a picture of the rapture were found in the middle chapters of the book, not at the beginning or at the end. 14:16 is probably the most compelling. All views have their difficulties - otherwise this would be a settled issue - but I find the mid-trib view has the fewest.

[Larry 2]

I come bearing news that there will be no mid-tribulation translation of the saints after the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place (Mt 24:15).

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This time is also known as Jacob's trouble of Jer 30:7  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Where is the Church? Jesus' angel (Rev 1:1) shows John different viewpoints from the perspective of the LORD's Day; that great day when Jesus receives His own throne in heaven (Rev 4:2).

Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; 

Notice Rev 4:1 . . Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (Is this pertaining to this present time, or even when John was back on the Isle of Patmos?) No & no!

John is being shown things prior to the beginning of the tribulation in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6. Are there some with Jesus said to be elders round about the throne and living ones or beasts in the midst of the throne? How did they get there other than translation? 

Next John is shown a great multitude and is asked by one of the elders who they are in Rev 7:13, and John answers in Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation (Not the end of tribulation - there's more than 1260 days to go) , and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

Last we read of the 144,000 in Rev 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (The heavenly Jerusalem), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. (Just when were they sealed? in Rev 7:3-9?)

 Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Larry 2
spelling

[Sister]

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John is being shown things prior to the beginning of the tribulation in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6. Are there some with Jesus said to be elders round about the throne and living ones or beasts in the midst of the throne? How did they get there other than translation? 

Hi Larry 2

1 Corinthians 15:23   But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
   

James 1:18   Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
 

Mark 16:14   Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

Mark 16:15   And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mark 16:20   And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

 

When John had the vision, the 24 elders were already in heaven around the throne before the Lamb opened the 7 seals.  I can only see these 24 as being Christ's apostles, a kind of firstfruits, because they were chosen to spread the gospels throughout the whole earth.  Therefore it seems most likely that his apostles, the 11, with the one who replaced Judas, and other apostles chosen after them to make up these 24 to be the ones resurrected first as a separate thing.  They were the ones responsible for spreading the gospels, throughout the whole earth, and even today we hear them, for their words are preserved and their teachings our foundation.

 

Quote

Last we read of the 144,000 in Rev 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (The heavenly Jerusalem), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. (Just when were they sealed? in Rev 7:3-9?)

Like the apostles chosen who were sealed, making up part of the 24 elders, these 144,000 are also sealed in the end times, and are the firstfruits of the first resurrection (the main resurrection).  They are sealed before the 7 angels sound with the 7 trumpets/vials (the wrath).  The 1st trumpet/vial poured out on the world starts after the Mark of the Beast is issued, therefore these 144,000 are sealed just before this.

Revelation 7:1   And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Revelation 7:2   And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Revelation 7:3   Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
 

[ghtan]

3 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

I come bearing news that there will be no mid-tribulation translation of the saints after the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place (Mt 24:15).

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This time is also known as Jacob's trouble of Jer 30:7  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Where is the Church? Jesus' angel (Rev 1:1) shows John different viewpoints from the perspective of the LORD's Day; that great day when Jesus receives His own throne in heaven (Rev 4:2).

Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; 

Notice Rev 4:1 . . Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (Is this pertaining to this present time, or even when John was back on the Isle of Patmos?) No & no!

John is being shown things prior to the beginning of the tribulation in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6. Are there some with Jesus said to be elders round about the throne and living ones or beasts in the midst of the throne? How did they get there other than translation? 

Next John is shown a great multitude and is asked by one of the elders who they are in Rev 7:13, and John answers in Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation (Not the end of tribulation - there's more than 1260 days to go) , and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

Last we read of the 144,000 in Rev 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (The heavenly Jerusalem), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. (Just when were they sealed? in Rev 7:3-9?)

 Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Sounds like a standard pre-trib view. Unfortunately, Rev 4:2 says John went to heaven IN THE SPIRIT; if this were meant to picture the rapture he should have gone up in bodily form. And I see Sister has answered your question on the 24 elders; btw nothing in the text says they were in body either. To me the main weakness of pre-trib is that such a rapture is not depicted in Revelation. I wish pre-trib were right - who wants to go through suffering? - but unfortunately I don't see any support for it, least of all in Revelation.  

[Larry 2]

Dear Sister, I’m so happy to see you giving such a detailed exposition of your thoughts of God’s word, and thank you. I’ll attempt to explain my views that are in addition to, or different than yours near as well.

2 hours ago, Sister said:

1 Corinthians 15:23   But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

I would ask what you consider to be Christ’s coming. For instance, to me there are different trumps, different raptures as it were if you’re into using that description for “Being caught up.”

To continue according to:

1 Thes 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

My belief is that all saints regardless of the grouping they’re caught up will be according to this formula; the dead first, and then those who remain alive.

To me the first grouping are the 24 elders as the dead in Christ (Rev 2:10 - remained faithful unto death), and them the Living ones of Rev 4:6 that are kept from the temptation to come upon all the world (Rev 3:10 - faithfully kept the word of God). These two churches Smyrna & Philadelphia are the only two of the seven churches commended, and are said to have crowns. The remaining locations of the Church are told to repent.

2 hours ago, Sister said:

James 1:18   Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
 

Mark 16:14   Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

Mark 16:15   And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mark 16:20   And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

I like the way you separated this in explaining what has occurred in going to every creature as opposed to what many refer to as the Great Commission of Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. At this present time we’re to do everything in the name of Jesus, and that’s exactly the way the apostles did all things.

Col 3:17  And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Nations will be dealt with during the millennium with Israel returned to their place as head of the nations.

2 hours ago, Sister said:

When John had the vision, the 24 elders were already in heaven around the throne before the Lamb opened the 7 seals.  I can only see these 24 as being Christ's apostles, a kind of firstfruits, because they were chosen to spread the gospels throughout the whole earth.  Therefore it seems most likely that his apostles, the 11, with the one who replaced Judas, and other apostles chosen after them to make up these 24 to be the ones resurrected first as a separate thing.  They were the ones responsible for spreading the gospels, throughout the whole earth, and even today we hear them, for their words are preserved and their teachings our foundation.

Before going further into this portion I might ask just when you believe the Lord’s day, or the Day of the Lord to be. I have talked to many that believe it was on a Sunday back on the Isle of Patmos. To me it cannot be because it is not until He is caught up to God’s throne, and Jesus receives His own throne in Rev 4:2 in a time future to us even now.

Jesus’ promise to us at this time for the future is in Rev 3:21.  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Jesus presently walks among the candlesticks (Churches - Rev 1:20) judging our spiritual walk (Revelation Chapters Two & Three), and intercedes for us to our Father. Now Jesus has been given all power and authority, but He has not taken it yet or I can guarantee you these usurping nations wouldn’t be as they are.

3 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

Last we read of the 144,000 in Rev 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion (The heavenly Jerusalem), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. (Just when were they sealed? in Rev 7:3-9?)

 

3 hours ago, Sister said:

Like the apostles chosen who were sealed, making up part of the 24 elders, these 144,000 are also sealed in the end times, and are the firstfruits of the first resurrection (the main resurrection).  They are sealed before the 7 angels sound with the 7 trumpets/vials (the wrath).  The 1st trumpet/vial poured out on the world starts after the Mark of the Beast is issued, therefore these 144,000 are sealed just before this.

Revelation 7:1   And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Revelation 7:2   And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Revelation 7:3   Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

I agree that the 144,000 are first fruits unto God, but of Israel, and are indeed a part of the Church. They are caught up to be seen in the presence of the 24 elders and four living ones there before them (Rev 14:3). I do not yet know your theology concerning when the 144,000 are shown being caught up, or what they’re kept from, but using the fact that everything John is shown subsequent to Rev 4:1 (Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter - that is from the beginning of the Lord’s Day.) is yet future.  Consider this referring to the “Man Child” of Rev 12:5. And then there remains 1260 days (Rev 12:6) of Jacob’s trouble to come.

Blessings in Christ Jesus. 

[Larry 2]

48 minutes ago, ghtan said:

Sounds like a standard pre-trib view. Unfortunately, Rev 4:2 says John went to heaven IN THE SPIRIT; if this were meant to picture the rapture he should have gone up in bodily form. And I see Sister has answered your question on the 24 elders; btw nothing in the text says they were in body either. To me the main weakness of pre-trib is that such a rapture is not depicted in Revelation. I wish pre-trib were right - who wants to go through suffering? - but unfortunately I don't see any support for it, least of all in Revelation.  

I certainly do not think John being caught up in Spirit to be shown future things after the beginning of the LORD’s Day has anything to do with the raptures to come. To me it is prophesy revealed much like that of Paul being caught up into Paradise according to 2 Cor 12:3  And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 2 Cor 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise . .

The things John was shown doesn’t reveal the place in Christ he qualified for, but to me it does show that there were some with Jesus prior to any tribulation, and others coming out of tribulation. I have no argument with you as to your beliefs because as far as I’m concerned it will change nothing as to our eternal destiny. May God bless you in Jesus’ name.

[ghtan]

48 minutes ago, Larry 2 said:

I certainly do not think John being caught up in Spirit to be shown future things after the beginning of the LORD’s Day has anything to do with the raptures to come. To me it is prophesy revealed much like that of Paul being caught up into Paradise according to 2 Cor 12:3  And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 2 Cor 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise . .

The things John was shown doesn’t reveal the place in Christ he qualified for, but to me it does show that there were some with Jesus prior to any tribulation, and others coming out of tribulation. I have no argument with you as to your beliefs because as far as I’m concerned it will change nothing as to our eternal destiny. May God bless you in Jesus’ name.

Don't worry, I never thought our rapture view has any effect on our salvation. But as you started by saying you came bearing news that there would be no mid-trib rapture, it is natural for me to read your subsequent statements as reasons for that belief. If they are not, what then is the basis of your claim? That there will be some with Jesus before the tribulation is to be expected given that once believers die, we will go to be with the Lord (Php 1:23). Blessings.

[Larry 2]

.

Dear Brother Ghtan, I reckon I should have stated it in another manner. When I wrote the following quote concerning even the 144,000 raptured somewhere just prior to the 1260 days (Midtrib), they just like the Great Multitude came out of Great Tribulation (Rev 7:14) because the woman that delivered them was given a hiding place for a full 1260 days (Rev 12:6) just before Satan was cast from heaven (Rev 12:9).

It is after this time we read of what will be really bad times for those left on earth. 

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 

Jer 30:7  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. 

If you’re interested in this I’ll go further into it. Thanks.

10 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

I come bearing news that there will be no mid-tribulation translation of the saints AFTER the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place (Mt 24:15).

 

[ghtan]

15 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

.

Dear Brother Ghtan, I reckon I should have stated it in another manner. When I wrote the following quote concerning even the 144,000 raptured somewhere just prior to the 1260 days (Midtrib), they just like the Great Multitude came out of Great Tribulation (Rev 7:14) because the woman that delivered them was given a hiding place for a full 1260 days (Rev 12:6) just before Satan was cast from heaven (Rev 12:9).

It is after this time we read of what will be really bad times for those left on earth. 

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 

Jer 30:7  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. 

If you’re interested in this I’ll go further into it. Thanks.

 

If I am not mistaken, you are suggesting a multi-rapture theory. I really don't think it will happen that way. But we have our own views.