Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[transmogrified]

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Where are His elect - His chosen ones - buried around the world? Perhaps, the easier question would be, Where are they NOT buried? See, even with millions of angels, the task of gathering them all is daunting, at the least!

Hello brother-

So what we need to do is look at the verse again: Behold I show you a mystery...we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in twinkling of an eye, at the last trump."

Let's also look at 1 Thess. 4 where it says 'and the dead in Christ shall rise first...'

So we have these two phrases:

1) We shall all be changed in a twinkling of an eye...(meaning both the living and the dead will receive glorified bodies at the same time)

2) And the dead in Christ shall rise first...

The issue here is what is meant by the dead in Christ shall 'rise' first. Does it mean they will be resurrected before the living? No. The the living are not resurrected so it would not mean the dead are resurrected before the living. So what does it mean?  It means the dead in Christ ascend up into heaven before the living ascend up. 

So take a step back again as to what is being said. For all to be changed, or receive glorified bodies at the same time, the dead would be glorified at the time they are resurrected. In other words, God is not going to raise them from the dead in mortal bodies and then later change them into glorified bodies. No. It is raised (resurrected) in incorruption, not in corruption...As it says:

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So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

 

For an example, let's say life is going on as it is now, and the last trumpet sounds. As it is now, there are many dead believers sleeping in the dust of the earth and there are also believers who are alive and remain. What happens? In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye both the living and the dead receive glorified bodies. What does that mean? It means  all the living and dead saints who ever lived and died up to that point are now in glorified bodies standing upon the earth.

A small microcosm of what will happen is shown when the 2 witnesses are resurrected at the end of the tribulation. What does it say?

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And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

Zooming in we see that:

1) They were killed and are lying dead in the street...(these are part of the dead in Christ)

2) The spirit of life from God enters them...(they are now resurrected from the dead and stand upon their feet...it is acknowledged they are now in glorified bodies as it states in 1 Cor. 'it is raised (resurrected) in incorruption.) One definition of resurrection is 'a standing up again,' as Strongs defines it below:

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anástasis, an-as'-tas-is; from G450; a standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death

The scenario now is that the the Spirit of life from God has entered into them and now the two witnesses have been raised in incorruption, and are now standing on the earth. What happens next?

It says they hear a great voice from heaven saying 'Come up hither.' They then ascend up bodily into heaven and their enemies behold them. This is the part that is defined by 'the dead in Christ rising first.' Meaning by this they ASCEND up into heaven first. First before who? First before the living ascend up to heaven. But before they hear the voice from heaven saying 'come up hither,' all of the living and dead saints are standing on the earth at the same time in glorified bodies.

From this point in time, those who were resurrected ascend up to heaven leaving those who were alive and remain on the earth. Both groups are in glorified bodies, but the dead in Christ have ascended up to heaven leaving the others on the earth.

We have to keep in mind that this resurrection that was just referred to takes place on the last day according to John 6. This means it occurs 'immediately after the tribulation of those days,' when the 7th trumpet sounds. So those who were dead in Christ have now ascended up to heaven. Jesus has not yet came because when he comes he must bring those that sleep in Jesus (the dead in Christ) WITH him. As it says when he COMES, all the saints will come with him:

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Zech. 14:5 "...and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

1 Thess. 3:13-  To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

 

 

So when it says 'Those that sleep in Jesus God will bring with him, it is not referring to the dead in Christ ASCENDING up to heaven, but rather is referring to God bringing the saints DOWN with him from heaven to the earth. This is the context in 1 Thess. 4...Not, 'For the Lord himself shall ASCEND  up to heaven with a shout,' but rather, 'For the Lord himself shall DESCEND from heaven with a shout.'

So in order for him to descend with the saints, they have to be there first. Where is this shown in scripture? It is Revelation 19 right after Babylon is destroyed John says:

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And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

 

So there were much people in heaven...How did they get there? These are the dead in Christ who just ascended up to heaven. What is the time frame? The time frame is the last day. God has just judged the great whore Babylon and now he is coming down with the all the saints and angels to Armageddon, to the  Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty. Remember, all the saints are resurrected on the last day...this is the day they ascend up to heaven....this is also the day they return with Jesus from Heaven...it is the same Day of God Almighty. They are up there in heaven getting ready to descend down from Heaven to the battle of Armageddon as it states in Jude 14

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Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

Those who are alive and remain are still on the earth up to this point. They have been glorified, but it is at this point in time when Jesus and the saints are descending down to the earth, that those who are alive and remain will be caught up (or ascend) to meet these saints that are coming down with Jesus to the earth. They meet them and then join with them and all the saints, both those who were resurrected and those who were alive now descend down to the earth together to fight at Armageddon, thus truly fulfilling what is written that 'The Lord my God shall come and ALL the saints (both the living and the dead) with thee."

So it must be acknowledged when the dead in Christ are resurrected is also the same time they are changed...for as it says, 'it is raised in incorruption'. So when it says 'we shall all be changed in a moment,' it means all the dead are resurrected and changed in the same moment all the living are changed. There is no scripture saying some people are changed at one time and some other people are changed at another time...No. This is not what the scripture says...all are changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the Last Trumpet. 

Saying that both the living and dead are changed at the same time, not only means there was a change, but also means all the dead in Christ were resurrected at this same time, for in saying a resurrection occurred we are also saying a change occurred for they can not be separated. 

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Yes, the MESSIAH of God ("the Christ") returns on a single day, and He sends out His messengers throughout the earth to gather His elect from the four compass directions and from the top of the atmosphere to the bottom of the soil/earth wherever people have mined - the ENTIRE biosphere, but - let's face it - you DON'T know that He arrived with them ANYWHERE on that same day

The thought that all cannot be resurrected at one time is false. Paul said concerning the resurrection...Christ the firstfruits...afterward, they that are Christ's at his coming. What did he say? Part of those will be resurrected before his coming and some of them would be resurrected at his coming? No he did not say that. He said 'Those that belong to Christ will be resurrected AT HIS COMING...Jesus comes on one single day...his coming is not before that day, nor does he come after that day. What this means is all will be resurrected at his coming, so it is not only possible, but inevitable. 

Blessings to you- Gary

 

 

 

 

[transmogrified]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Something else that should be brought up: Let's look carefully at the Daniel 12 passage:

The first question was WHEN?

"How long shall it be to the END of these wonders? That question was answered...it would be for a time, times and a half and WHEN he (the man of sin) shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE FINISHED.

So WHEN were all these things to be completed? At the end of the 3. 5 year reign of the beast, which is the Second Coming, for it is Jesus that stops him from continuing to kill the saints...as it says 'And he (the man of sin) prevailed against them (the saints) UNTIL the Ancient of Days came.'

When is this point in time? It is not at the end of the 1000 years, it is not after the 1000 years, it is not before the Second Coming, it is AT THE SECOND COMING.

It does not say, it shall be for a time times and a half that all these things shall be STARTED, but rather they shall all be FINISHED.

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Did Daniel get what he asked for? NO!

He did not get the answer to the last question, but the last question was not the same as first question...the first question was a matter of WHEN
...the latter was a question of WHAT. The angel did not go into any further details with Daniel about what the end would be, but he did provide an answer as to the question of when all the things listed would be finished.

They were:

1) Michael stands up...

2) A time of trouble...

3) Israel is delivered...

4) The resurrection of the good and the bad...

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The words were CLOSED UP and SEALED until the TIME OF THE END! He was only told about Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who was still FUTURE to him at that time!

Only Antiochus IV Epiphanes? How is it that Michael standing up, there being a time of trouble, Israel being delivered, and the resurrection of the good and the bad equates to: 'He was only told about Antiochus IV Epiphanes?' Antiochus was yet future to Daniel, but Michael standing up and the time of trouble and the resurrection was not future to him? That is nonsense. 

If the words are still closed up, why did Jesus tell the disciples to refer to Daniel about the abomination of desolation and then say 'Let him that readeth understand?' Jesus didn't tell them to understand what they were reading if it could not be understood because it was sealed.

How is it that we can understand that the man of sin will rule the world for 3. 5 years? Because the Book or Revelation tell us about it.

It was said by the angel that the little horn would make war against the saints until the Ancient of Days came, but it was not clear to Daniel that the 3.5 year time frame was referring to how long the little horn would wage war against the saints. The only reason we can see it is because we are reading what God revealed to John in Revelation.

So because Daniel did not understand it does not mean we can't. It was sealed unto the time of the end. The Book of Revelation has been given to John and we can see through what was given to him what Daniel could not understand.

The angel did tell John the little horn would wage war against the saints until the Ancient of Days came, but it was not clear to Daniel that the 3.5 years spoken of by the angel was referring to how long the little horn would rule the world.

One other thing I just realized is that Daniel was not actually the one asking the first question...there was one on this side of the river and another on the other side of the river and Daniel heard the one angel asking this question to the other angel. So Daniel was not even asking this first question, it was one angel asking another one and he just was listening to what they were saying. 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

While there are hints about the distant future, as well, their answer to Daniel was "Go HOME!"

While they said to Daniel to go his way, does not mean we are to go our way..it was closed and sealed to the time of the end. Jesus did not tell the disciples to 'go your way because the words are sealed...he said 'let him that readeth understand.'

Edited May 22, 2022 by transmogrified

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Hello brother-

So what we need to do is look at the verse again: Behold I show you a mystery...we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in twinkling of an eye, at the last trump."

Let's also look at 1 Thess. 4 where it says 'and the dead in Christ shall rise first...'

So we have these two phrases:

1) We shall all be changed in a twinkling of an eye...(meaning both the living and the dead will receive glorified bodies at the same time)

2) And the dead in Christ shall rise first...

The issue here is what is meant by the dead in Christ shall 'rise' first. Does it mean they will be resurrected before the living? No. The the living are not resurrected so it would not mean the dead are resurrected before the living. So what does it mean?  It means the dead in Christ ascend up into heaven before the living ascend up. 

Shalom, transmogrified (Gary).

No, actually, the dead in the Messiah SHALL be resurrected as immortal bodies before the living are changed or transformed into immortal bodies, but "we shall all be changed" because the dead are changed as they are resurrected!

Furthermore, be careful of your wording. They ascend up into "aera," the accusative case of "aeer," the Greek word for "air!" 

One more time, THIS passage talks about the resurrection...

 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery (a secret);
We shall not all sleep, (We won't all die) 
but we shall all be changed, (We ALL, living and dead, shall be transformed)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, (the dead are resurrected unable to decay again)
and we shall be changed. (We [the living at the time] shall be transformed.)
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, (The body that can decay must put on the trait of never decaying again.)
and this mortal must put on immortality. (The body that can die must put on the trait of never dying again.)
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
"Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 O death, where is thy sting?
O grave, where is thy victory? 
56 The sting of death is sin;
and the strength of sin is the law. 
57 But thanks be to God,
which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This passage doesn't say we'll be taken anywhere.

Now, let's look at the 1 Thessalonians passage: (First, note that BOTH are Paul's words.)

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep (are dead), that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep (who are dead) in Jesus will God bring with him. 
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (Greek: ap' [apo] ouranou = "from [the]-sky") with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise (Greek anasteesontai = "they-shall-stand-up") first: 
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Greek: harpageesometha = "will-be-snatched-away") together with them (Greek: hama sun autois = "together with them") in the clouds (Greek: en nefalais = "in clouds"), to meet the Lord (Greek: eis apanteesin tou Kuriou = "into a-meeting of-the Lord") in the air (Greek: eis aera = "into [the] air"): and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

First, Yeshua` the Messiah of God, the Son of God, descends from the sky (Greek: ap' [apo] ouranou = "from [the]-sky") with a SHOUT, with the voice of the chief messenger, and with the trumpet of God.
God resurrects those who are asleep in the Messiah, first.
Then, those who are alive and remain, who have NOT preceded the resurrected dead ones, shall be snatched away together with the resurrected ones in the clouds to meet the Master in the air.

From that time on, we shall always be with our Master.

(One should notice, though, that at NO TIME did he say we would be taken to some "Heaven" with our Master!)

20 hours ago, transmogrified said:

So take a step back again as to what is being said. For all to be changed, or receive glorified bodies at the same time, the dead would be glorified at the time they are resurrected. In other words, God is not going to raise them from the dead in mortal bodies and then later change them into glorified bodies. No. It is raised (resurrected) in incorruption, not in corruption...As it says:

I don't have a problem with this. I, too, believe those of us who will be dead before the Messiah returns will be raised to life as glorified bodies.

20 hours ago, transmogrified said:

For an example, let's say life is going on as it is now, and the last trumpet sounds. As it is now, there are many dead believers sleeping in the dust of the earth and there are also believers who are alive and remain. What happens? In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye both the living and the dead receive glorified bodies. What does that mean? It means  all the living and dead saints who ever lived and died up to that point are now in glorified bodies standing upon the earth.

Again, I have no problem believing this. HOWEVER, you've got to understand that the trumpet is NOT going to be instantaneously heard around the world! A trumpeting and a shout are carried through the air as soundwaves. Soundwaves die off depending on the intensity of the source and the dispersion of those waves. Furthermore, sound travels through the air at a rate of speed, depending on the thickness and composition of the air. Usually at sea level and under normal air pressure, sound travels at 1,125 feet per second.

Since, this is close to 1/5 of a mile per second (1/4.69333... mile/sec), one is taught to measure how far away a lightning strike is from the time the thunder of that same strike reaches the observer/listener. Count the seconds between the time you see the lightning flash (which is practically instantaneous) and the time you hear the associated thunder, and divide by 5 to estimate how many miles away the flash occurred.

So, if we are talking about a Resurrection that occurs worldwide, then the "shout/trumpet" must happen for each location where they are to "pick up" new "resurrectees!" How long will this happen? We have no way of telling, but we DO know that He sends out His messengers to all four compass directions, from the upper end of the sky to the lower end of the sky, and this suggests worldwide!

20 hours ago, transmogrified said:

A small microcosm of what will happen is shown when the 2 witnesses are resurrected at the end of the tribulation. What does it say?

Zooming in we see that:

1) They were killed and are lying dead in the street...(these are part of the dead in Christ)

2) The spirit of life from God enters them...(they are now resurrected from the dead and stand upon their feet...it is acknowledged they are now in glorified bodies as it states in 1 Cor. 'it is raised (resurrected) in incorruption.) One definition of resurrection is 'a standing up again,' as Strongs defines it below:

Again, I have no problem whatsoever with this "microcosm."

20 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The scenario now is that the the Spirit of life from God has entered into them and now the two witnesses have been raised in incorruption, and are now standing on the earth. What happens next?

It says they hear a great voice from heaven saying 'Come up hither.' They then ascend up bodily into heaven and their enemies behold them. This is the part that is defined by 'the dead in Christ rising first.' Meaning by this they ASCEND up into heaven first. First before who? First before the living ascend up to heaven. But before they hear the voice from heaven saying 'come up hither,' all of the living and dead saints are standing on the earth at the same time in glorified bodies.

From this point in time, those who were resurrected ascend up to heaven leaving those who were alive and remain on the earth. Both groups are in glorified bodies, but the dead in Christ have ascended up to heaven leaving the others on the earth.

NOW comes the parts with which I disagree. I'm not disagreeing with the Scriptures, only with how you understand these Scriptures. Let's again look at the text itself:

Revelation 11:1-14 (KJV)

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying,

"Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without (outside) the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified (Jerusalem). 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven (Greek: foonees megalees ek tou ouranou = "a-voice loud out of-the sky") saying unto them,

"Come up hither." (Greek: Anabate hoode = "Come-up here!")

And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud (Greek: anebeesan eis ton ouranon en tee nefelee = "they-went-up into the sky in the cloud"); and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven (Greek: edookan doxan too Theoo tou ouranou = "they-gave glory to-the God of-the sky").

14 "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

This is an INDIVIDUAL resurrection - a resurrection of TWO persons. It is NOT part of the general resurrection! Furthermore, there is NO mention of the living being ANYONE other than the wicked men and women in multiple nations who celebrated the death of the two witnesses!

The "dead in Christ rising first" found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says, "the dead in the Messiah shall-stand-up first" and is talking about the comparison between the dead ones resurrected and the living ones who didn't need a resurrection. They are resurrected FIRST and THEN the living are transformed! It does NOT mean that they go up into the sky first! The text says, "we which are alive and remain will-be-snatched-away TOGETHER WITH THEM in [the]-clouds into a-meeting of-the Lord into [the]-air!"

20 hours ago, transmogrified said:

We have to keep in mind that this resurrection that was just referred to takes place on the last day according to John 6. This means it occurs 'immediately after the tribulation of those days,' when the 7th trumpet sounds. So those who were dead in Christ have now ascended up to heaven. Jesus has not yet came because when he comes he must bring those that sleep in Jesus (the dead in Christ) WITH him. As it says when he COMES, all the saints will come with him:

So when it says 'Those that sleep in Jesus God will bring with him, it is not referring to the dead in Christ ASCENDING up to heaven, but rather is referring to God bringing the saints DOWN with him from heaven to the earth. This is the context in 1 Thess. 4...Not, 'For the Lord himself shall ASCEND  up to heaven with a shout,' but rather, 'For the Lord himself shall DESCEND from heaven with a shout.'

So in order for him to descend with the saints, they have to be there first. Where is this shown in scripture? It is Revelation 19 right after Babylon is destroyed John says:

So there were much people in heaven...How did they get there? These are the dead in Christ who just ascended up to heaven. What is the time frame? The time frame is the last day. God has just judged the great whore Babylon and now he is coming down with the all the saints and angels to Armageddon, to the  Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty. Remember, all the saints are resurrected on the last day...this is the day they ascend up to heaven....this is also the day they return with Jesus from Heaven...it is the same Day of God Almighty. They are up there in heaven getting ready to descend down from Heaven to the battle of Armageddon as it states in Jude 14

Those who are alive and remain are still on the earth up to this point. They have been glorified, but it is at this point in time when Jesus and the saints are descending down to the earth, that those who are alive and remain will be caught up (or ascend) to meet these saints that are coming down with Jesus to the earth. They meet them and then join with them and all the saints, both those who were resurrected and those who were alive now descend down to the earth together to fight at Armageddon, thus truly fulfilling what is written that 'The Lord my God shall come and ALL the saints (both the living and the dead) with thee."

So it must be acknowledged when the dead in Christ are resurrected is also the same time they are changed...for as it says, 'it is raised in incorruption'. So when it says 'we shall all be changed in a moment,' it means all the dead are resurrected and changed in the same moment all the living are changed. There is no scripture saying some people are changed at one time and some other people are changed at another time...No. This is not what the scripture says...all are changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the Last Trumpet. 

Saying that both the living and dead are changed at the same time, not only means there was a change, but also means all the dead in Christ were resurrected at this same time, for in saying a resurrection occurred we are also saying a change occurred for they can not be separated. 

The thought that all cannot be resurrected at one time is false. Paul said concerning the resurrection...Christ the firstfruits...afterward, they that are Christ's at his coming. What did he say? Part of those will be resurrected before his coming and some of them would be resurrected at his coming? No he did not say that. He said 'Those that belong to Christ will be resurrected AT HIS COMING...Jesus comes on one single day...his coming is not before that day, nor does he come after that day. What this means is all will be resurrected at his coming, so it is not only possible, but inevitable. 

Blessings to you- Gary

The rest of all this is mere fiction. You paint an interesting yarn, but it is SEVERELY LACKING in the truth of God's Word.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Retrobyter
to finish a change begun earlier

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

So, if we are talking about a Resurrection that occurs worldwide, then the "shout/trumpet" must happen for each location where they are to "pick up" new "resurrectees!" How long will this happen? We have no way of telling, but we DO know that He sends out His messengers to all four compass directions, from the upper end of the sky to the lower end of the sky, and this suggests worldwide!

The scripture was given about the resurrection...it specifically says all will be resurrected at the Second Coming ...Jesus comes on a single day as was stated and this is the exact point in time when Paul says those that belong to Christ, in other words all the saints, will be resurrected...what does it say?

Christ the firstfruits..afterward those that are Christ's at his coming...This is talking about the resurrection...For since by man came death, by man came also 'the resurrection of the dead...' For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive...but every man in his own order...Christ the firstfruits (he was the first to be resurrected) and afterward (after his resurrection) those who are Christ's (those who belong to Christ) at his coming...' What happens at his coming? Those that belong to Christ will be resurrected...At his coming does not mean sometime before his coming, or sometime after his coming it means on the day he comes all will be resurrected...the same day all those that are resurrected will return with to Armageddon...so it is not true that we have no way of knowing how long it will take for God to resurrect the saints...it all takes place at his coming...his coming takes place on one single day, so will the resurrection of everyone take place on this same day.

Blessings to you

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

The rest of all this is mere fiction. You paint an interesting yarn, but it is SEVERELY LACKING in the truth of God's Word.

Please point out the errors that were severely lacking in the truth of God's word...

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The first question was WHEN?

"How long shall it be to the END of these wonders? That question was answered...it would be for a time, times and a half and WHEN he (the man of sin) shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE FINISHED.

So WHEN were all these things to be completed? At the end of the 3. 5 year reign of the beast, which is the Second Coming, for it is Jesus that stops him from continuing to kill the saints...as it says 'And he (the man of sin) prevailed against them (the saints) UNTIL the Ancient of Days came.'

When is this point in time? It is not at the end of the 1000 years, it is not after the 1000 years, it is not before the Second Coming, it is AT THE SECOND COMING.

It does not say, it shall be for a time times and a half that all these things shall be STARTED, but rather they shall all be FINISHED.

He did not get the answer to the last question, but the last question was not the same as first question...the first question was a matter of WHEN
...the latter was a question of WHAT. The angel did not go into any further details with Daniel about what the end would be, but he did provide an answer as to the question of when all the things listed would be finished.

They were:

1) Michael stands up...

2) A time of trouble...

3) Israel is delivered...

4) The resurrection of the good and the bad...

Only Antiochus IV Epiphanes? How is it that Michael standing up, there being a time of trouble, Israel being delivered, and the resurrection of the good and the bad equates to: 'He was only told about Antiochus IV Epiphanes?' Antiochus was yet future to Daniel, but Michael standing up and the time of trouble and the resurrection was not future to him? That is nonsense. 

If the words are still closed up, why did Jesus tell the disciples to refer to Daniel about the abomination of desolation and then say 'Let him that readeth understand?' Jesus didn't tell them to understand what they were reading if it could not be understood because it was sealed.

How is it that we can understand that the man of sin will rule the world for 3. 5 years? Because the Book or Revelation tell us about it.

It was said by the angel that the little horn would make war against the saints until the Ancient of Days came, but it was not clear to Daniel that the 3.5 year time frame was referring to how long the little horn would wage war against the saints. The only reason we can see it is because we are reading what God revealed to John in Revelation.

So because Daniel did not understand it does not mean we can't. It was sealed unto the time of the end. The Book of Revelation has been given to John and we can see through what was given to him what Daniel could not understand.

The angel did tell John the little horn would wage war against the saints until the Ancient of Days came, but it was not clear to Daniel that the 3.5 years spoken of by the angel was referring to how long the little horn would rule the world.

One other thing I just realized is that Daniel was not actually the one asking the first question...there was one on this side of the river and another on the other side of the river and Daniel heard the one angel asking this question to the other angel. So Daniel was not even asking this first question, it was one angel asking another one and he just was listening to what they were saying. 

While they said to Daniel to go his way, does not mean we are to go our way..it was closed and sealed to the time of the end. Jesus did not tell the disciples to 'go your way because the words are sealed...he said 'let him that readeth understand.'

Shalom, Gary.

One thing: Daniel 9 is about the 70 Sevens of years, not Daniel 12. Daniel 12 is a CONTINUATION of Daniel 10 and 11! So, when Yeshua` spoke of the "abomination that makes desolate," in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, He was talking about the DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE in 70 A.D!

This comes from Daniel 9:26, not Daniel 10-12! There's no trademark on the words "abomination" or "desolation"; these words DON'T always talk about the same event in history! In Daniel 10-12, it is specific to the desecration of the Temple by Antiochus IV "Epiphanes," but in Daniel 9:26, the words are about the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. by Titus and the Romans! As in EVERYTHING, CONTEXT is the key!

[transmogrified]

43 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

This comes from Daniel 9:26, not Daniel 10-12! There's no trademark on the words "abomination" or "desolation"; these words DON'T always talk about the same event in history! In Daniel 10-12, it is specific to the desecration of the Temple by Antiochus IV "Epiphanes," but in Daniel 9:26, the words are about the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. by Titus and the Romans! As in EVERYTHING, CONTEXT is the key!

I was referring to the 3. 5 year reign of the beast in Dan. 12...the man of sin comes to his end at the Second Coming...it is not referring to some past event in 70 AD. 

Michael did not stand up in 70 AD...

Israel was not delivered in 70 AD...

The time of trouble was not in 70 AD...

The resurrection of the good and bad was not in 70 AD...

These are all future events as Paul linked the man in Dan. 11-12 as being 'that wicked' and the one who Christ destroys with the brightness of his coming...this is still future..Paul said the one who exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped is yet to come and he had not been revealed as of yet. 

If the man in Daniel 12 was Antiochus then all those things he mentioned would have already been fulfilled in 70 which of course is not the case.

 

[Retrobyter]

22 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The scripture was given about the resurrection...it specifically says all will be resurrected at the Second Coming ...Jesus comes on a single day as was stated and this is the exact point in time when Paul says those that belong to Christ, in other words all the saints, will be resurrected...what does it say?

Christ the firstfruits..afterward those that are Christ's at his coming...This is talking about the resurrection...For since by man came death, by man came also 'the resurrection of the dead...' For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive...but every man in his own order...Christ the firstfruits (he was the first to be resurrected) and afterward (after his resurrection) those who are Christ's (those who belong to Christ) at his coming...' What happens at his coming? Those that belong to Christ will be resurrected...At his coming does not mean sometime before his coming, or sometime after his coming it means on the day he comes all will be resurrected...the same day all those that are resurrected will return with to Armageddon...so it is not true that we have no way of knowing how long it will take for God to resurrect the saints...it all takes place at his coming...his coming takes place on one single day, so will the resurrection of everyone take place on this same day.

Shalom, Gary.

Nope. This is #1: a SLIGHT MISREADING of 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

Christ the firstfruits; (yes, He was the first to be resurrected)

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (And, yes, this is the Second Coming when "Those that belong to Christ will be resurrected...At his coming does not mean sometime before his coming, or sometime after his coming it means on the day he comes all will be resurrected." This is a GENERAL resurrection; HOWEVER, while MOST will be resurrected then, there are a few, like the two witnesses, who will be resurrected after their job is done. Just like what was said to the ones under the altar at the opening of the fifth seal, that "they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled," so too, there will be some that are resurrected AFTER everyone else.)

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  (This is a THIRD resurrection, a general resurrection, when the tares are removed from His Kingdom and resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne for judgment.)

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet.

But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest that "he" is excepted, which did "put all things under him."

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

You're also reaching quite a bit when you said, "At his coming does not mean sometime before his coming, or sometime after his coming it means on the day he comes all will be resurrected...the same day all those that are resurrected will return with to Armageddon...so it is not true that we have no way of knowing how long it will take for God to resurrect the saints...it all takes place at his coming...his coming takes place on one single day, so will the resurrection of everyone take place on this same day." You don't KNOW that! You CAN'T know that! The earth is a VERY big place! It is an estimated 196,900,000 square miles in surface area! While many are buried in the same crypts or catacombs, there are a NUMBER of single burial plots all over the western United States, for instance, that occurred when people were expanding out west! Think of all the burial plots that are under parking lots and apartment buildings that were built over them unwittingly! We don't know the path He will take in the air, nor do we know the search patterns the messengers will take as they gather in those who belong to Him, but it's NOT going to be an "act of magic!"

While God CAN work that way, should He choose to do so, He seldom works that way! Instead, He usually works THROUGH people to get the job done!

 

22 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Blessings to you

Please point out the errors that were severely lacking in the truth of God's word...

Sure. I'll point these out next ....

[transmogrified]

39 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

This is a GENERAL resurrection; HOWEVER, while MOST will be resurrected then, there are a few, like the two witnesses, who will be resurrected after their job is done.

The two witnesses are included in the dead in Christ category and also are included in 'those that are Christ's at his coming..' The phrase 'those that are Christ's' means those that belong to him...the two witnesses belong to Christ just like all the other saints as Jesus said 'All that God has given to me I will raise up at the last day..' He did not say 'All that God has given me except the two witnesses will I raise up at the last day.'

42 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Just like what was said to the ones under the altar at the opening of the fifth seal, that "they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled," so too, there will be some that are resurrected AFTER everyone else.)

Not in accordance with what Paul and Jesus said. Paul said we would all be changed at the last trump...not some of us changed before the last trump and then the rest of us changed at the last trump...so no...there are not 'some that are resurrected after everyone else...' This is adding to God's word...Jesus did not say 'those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at his coming, if he meant 'some of those that belong to Christ.' It would then read: "Christ the firstfruits, afterward some of those that are Christ's at his coming."

Jesus did not say, "and of some of those who you have given me I will lose nothing but will raise some of them up at the last day." 

 Instead of Jesus saying and of 'ALL which you have given me, I will lose nothing, but will raise it up at the last day,' the word 'ALL' is substituted for  the phrase 'SOME OF.' 

 

44 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

his coming takes place on one single day, so will the resurrection of everyone take place on this same day." You don't KNOW that!

When it says those that are Christ's will be resurrected at his coming, then we KNOW when they will be resurrected...at his coming...his coming takes place on a single day...it would not be scriptural to say he will begin to resurrect some before his coming and then maybe resurrect some more after he comes, which would be the only two options if they are not ALL resurrected at his coming. If he wanted to say 'those that are Christ's will be resurrected, some before his coming and some after his coming, he could have said that, but he said 'AT HIS COMING.'

 

49 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

but it's NOT going to be an "act of magic!"

If it is was a natural process of men, then yes, it would never get done.  It says all that are in the graves HEAR THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD AND COME FORTH.

For all the saints to be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump, then yes, it is supernatural. 

Blessings to you- Gary

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, @transmogrified, Gary.

I had promised to point out the "errors that were severely lacking in the truth of God's word":

You had said, "We have to keep in mind that this resurrection that was just referred to takes place on the last day according to John 6. This means it occurs 'immediately after the tribulation of those days,' when the 7th trumpet sounds. So those who were dead in Christ have now ascended up to heaven. Jesus has not yet come because when he comes he must bring those that sleep in Jesus (the dead in Christ) WITH him. As it says when he COMES, all the saints will come with him:"

John 6 is a hard passage to understand, but it is fun to hear! It starts with the feeding of the 5,000 with the 5 barley matsot (cracker-like bread, since it was Passover) and 2 fish, moves on to the disciples crossing Lake Kinneret ("the Sea of Galilee" and "the Sea of Tiberias") in a boat, while Yeshua` was alone on the mountain. Then, after the people went off looking for ways to follow Him, He started to walk the distance of 25 to 30 stadia to the boat on the surface of the water! Immediately after He got in the boat, they were on the shore of where they were intending to go! The next day, when the crowd caught up to Him, they asked Him, "How did YOU get here?!" For they knew He didn't leave with His disciples! He told them, "You weren't looking for me to see God's miracles; you ate of the bread and fish and got your bellies filled!" Then, they asked, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" and Yeshua` said, "This is the work of God, that you all believe on him whom He has sent." So, they asked a sign from Him and mentioned, like our fathers ate of the manna, and quoted the Scripture that said, "He gave them bread from the sky to eat." Yeshua` said unto them, "Moses didn't give you that bread from the sky; my Father gives you the true bread from the sky. THE BREAD OF GOD IS HE WHO CAME DOWN FROM THE SKY, AND GIVES LIFE UNTO THE WORLD." They responded saying, "Sir, always give this bread to us!" So, He dug in deeper: "I am the bread of life: he that comes TO ME shall never hunger; and he that believes ON ME shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That you all also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him who comes to me I will in no wise throw out. For I came down from the sky, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent me. And this is the Father's will who has sent me, that of all which He has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again in the last day (Greek: en tee eskatee heemera = "in the final day"). And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one who sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day (Greek: en tee eskatee heemera = "in the final day")."

First, the Greek word "ouranos" doesn't mean "Heaven." Its primary meaning is the "sky." BY EXTENSION, it can mean "heavens" as they USED to mean the "skies," but the idea of "the abode of God" comes from Rev. C. I. Scofield's note on page 1238 of his Scofield Reference Bible (KJV edition) as an explanation for 2 Corinthians 12:1-2, namely, “d First heaven, of clouds; second, of stars; third, God’s abode.” : 

G3772 οὐρανός, οῦ, ὁ ouranos (oo-ran-os'). Perhaps from the same as ὄρος oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity): 
-- air, heaven(-ly), sky. 

G3735 ὄρος, ους, τό oros (or'-os). Probably from an obsolete ὄρω oroo (to rise or "rear"; perhaps akin to αἴρω airoo[to raise/take up/lift]; compare ὄρνις ornis [bird]); a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain):
--hill, mount(-ain).

Paul and Matthew used another word for things above the sky,

G2032 ἐπουράνιος epouranios (ep-oo-ran'-ee-os). From ἐπί epi and οὐρανός ouranos; above the sky:
-- celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high.

G1909 ἐπί epi (ep-ee'). A primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. Over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.:
-- about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, (where-))fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-)on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).

So, when you said, "on the last day," the Greek text actually says "IN the final Day!" Again, this is the 1,000-year Day of the LORD.

***

Then, you said, "So those who were dead in Christ have now ascended up to heaven. Jesus has not yet come because when he comes he must bring those that sleep in Jesus (the dead in Christ) WITH him. As it says when he COMES, all the saints will come with him:" So when it says 'Those that sleep in Jesus God will bring with him, it is not referring to the dead in Christ ASCENDING up to heaven, but rather is referring to God bringing the saints DOWN with him from heaven to the earth. This is the context in 1 Thess. 4...Not, 'For the Lord himself shall ASCEND  up to heaven with a shout,' but rather, 'For the Lord himself shall DESCEND from heaven with a shout.' So in order for him to descend with the saints, they have to be there first." 

Actually, this is misrepresented primarily by those who believe that we go to heaven when we die. If one will be honest, one must admit that verse 14 never said that "God will bring those who sleep in Jesus from heaven with Jesus!" Instead, the comparison is, "if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him!" The comparison is the death and resurrection of Yeshua` compared to the death and resurrection of those who sleep in Yeshua`! We tend to put a LOT of words in the mouths of the authors, based upon our theological stance!

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, it is the Lord Yeshua` the Messiah who descends "from heaven" (Greek: ap' [apo] ouranou = "away-from [the] sky") Himself. People like to think that our "souls" "go to heaven when we die," but a "soul" is a "nefesh" in Hebrew and a "psuchee" in Greek, both of which refer to BREATHING. A "bodiless, immaterial, immortal soul," as it is often called, doesn't BREATHE! Breathing has to do with the BODY!

G5590 ψυχή psuchee (psoo-khay'). From ψύχω psuchoo; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from πνεῦμα pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from ζωή zooee, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew נֶפֶשׁ nefesh, רוּחַ ruwach and חַי chay): 
-- heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

G5594 ψύχω psuchoo (psoo'-kho). A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from πνέω pneoo, which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of ἀήρ aeer, which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication, of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively): 
-- wax cold.

H5315 נֶפֶשׁ nefesh (neh'-fesh). From נָפַשׁ naafash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): 
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

H5314 נָפַשׁ naafash (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

Gotta stop here for tonight...

 

[Retrobyter]

On 5/23/2022 at 5:02 PM, transmogrified said:

I was referring to the 3. 5 year reign of the beast in Dan. 12...the man of sin comes to his end at the Second Coming...it is not referring to some past event in 70 AD. 

Shalom, Gary.

Daniel 12 does not talk about "the man of sin" or "the 3.5 year reign of the beast!"

The "the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river" is talking about the same man in ...

Daniel 11:30-35 (KJV)

30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

This is NOT talking about the "beast" of Revelation, nor the "man of sin": the messenger here is talking about ANTIOCHUS IV EPIPHANES! One just has to follow the text through the history of the enemies of the children of Israel! First, were the kings of Bavel ("Babylon"), then the kings of Medo-Persia, then the kings of Greece, particularly Alexander the Great, and then the Seleucid Empire that arose from Alexander's empire. And, in the Seleucid Empire, the text goes down through time between the king of the north, the leaders of the Seleucid dynasty, and the king of the south, the Ptolemies of Egypt!

ALL of these people were talked about in Daniel 11! For instance,

Daniel 11:1-4 (KJV)

1 Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him. 2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. 3 And a mighty king (Alexander the Great) shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will. 4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

Two of the four divisions of Alexander's Kingdom became the Seleucids in the north and the Ptolemies in the south!

The later parts of this chapter will even talk about Caesar Augustus and his vassal king Herod the Great!

Herod the Great is the last person seen in chapter 11, and then we read chapter 12!

Daniel 12:1 (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 

This "time of trouble" is the Tribulation. It's not a 7-year thing, nor is it a 3.5-year thing. It began in the First Century A.D., and it will continue until the signs in the sun, moon, and stars. It was what Yeshua` spoke about in the Olivet Discourse as a "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." It is a DIRECT RESULT of the rejection of the Messiah of God! (See Matthew 23:37-39.) He left the Jews in Jerusalem DESOLATE until they can welcome Him back as God's Messiah - God's ANOINTED to be King!

On 5/23/2022 at 5:02 PM, transmogrified said:

Michael did not stand up in 70 AD...

No, He stood up BEFORE 70 A.D., probably in 66 A.D. for that is when they saw the abomination of desolation stand in the Temple, and those who understood Yeshua`s warning took off to the hills and mountains of Israel, turning up in and around a small town on the east side of the Jordan River called "Pella." See DeedsOfGod.com. The Christians of Jerusalem had a visitation from one of God's messengers, warning them that it was time to go.

On 5/23/2022 at 5:02 PM, transmogrified said:

Israel was not delivered in 70 AD...

In part, they were. The believers at the time were indeed delivered.

On 5/23/2022 at 5:02 PM, transmogrified said:

The time of trouble was not in 70 AD...

Yes, it was. Yeshua` SAID it would be so!

On 5/23/2022 at 5:02 PM, transmogrified said:

The resurrection of the good and bad was not in 70 AD...

No, here you're correct. The Tribulation is almost 2,000 years long! So, yes, the resurrections have not happened, yet.

On 5/23/2022 at 5:02 PM, transmogrified said:

These are all future events as Paul linked the man in Dan. 11-12 as being 'that wicked' and the one who Christ destroys with the brightness of his coming...this is still future..Paul said the one who exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped is yet to come and he had not been revealed as of yet. 

If the man in Daniel 12 was Antiochus then all those things he mentioned would have already been fulfilled in 70 which of course is not the case.

 

No, go back and re-read Daniel 12. After the first four verses, the book is SEALED! The last verses in the chapter are about the nearer future, a future that Daniel's readers will need to know.