Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[transmogrified]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The "the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river" is talking about the same man in ...

Daniel 11:30-35 (KJV)

The 'vile person' in Daniel 11:21 until the time he comes to his end at the Second coming is the same person. Read each verse and it will be seen the identity never changes...from 11:21 to Dan. 11:45 it is the same man. At the time he comes to his end is at the time the resurrection of the good and bad occur.

It says 'and he shall come to his end and none shall help him...' Then it states AT THAT TIME the following events would take place:

1) Michael would stand up...

2) There would be a time of trouble...

3) Israel would be delivered...

4) Multitudes that sleep in the dust shall awake

Antiochus died is 164 BC....According to Daniel the man he is referring to comes to his end at the time when all the events listed including the resurrection will take place. 

If the man is Antiochus in Dan. 11:44  he would be over 2100 years old today and would have to remain alive until he is cast alive into the lake of fire at the Second Coming. This is nonsense. 

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Daniel 11:21- 11:45

And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they  (The same man and his forces) shall forecast devices against him. (the king of the south) 

Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him,  and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.

And both these kings' hearts (same king against the king of the south) shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.

For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

 

As can be seen the identity never changes from 11:21 until 11:45...This man that comes to his at the time the resurrection and Second Coming takes place is not Antiochus Epiphanes but is the one Paul spoke of 2 Thess. 2 who is destroyed at the brightness of his coming:

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whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

Also spoken of in Rev. 20:

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And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Blessings to you- Gary

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The 'vile person' in Daniel 11:21 until the time he comes to his end at the Second coming is the same person. Read each verse and it will be seen the identity never changes...from 11:21 to Dan. 11:45 it is the same man. At the time he comes to his end is at the time the resurrection of the good and bad occur.

It says 'and he shall come to his end and none shall help him...' Then it states AT THAT TIME the following events would take place:

1) Michael would stand up...

2) There would be a time of trouble...

3) Israel would be delivered...

4) Multitudes that sleep in the dust shall awake

Antiochus died is 164 BC....According to Daniel the man he is referring to comes to his end at the time when all the events listed including the resurrection will take place. 

If the man is Antiochus in Dan. 11:44  he would be over 2100 years old today and would have to remain alive until he is cast alive into the lake of fire at the Second Coming. This is nonsense. 

As can be seen the identity never changes from 11:21 until 11:45...This man that comes to his at the time the resurrection and Second Coming takes place is not Antiochus Epiphanes but is the one Paul spoke of 2 Thess. 2 who is destroyed at the brightness of his coming:

Also spoken of in Rev. 20:

Blessings to you- Gary

Shalom, Gary.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to think that the prophecies are all about the distant future.

[transmogrified]

16 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to think that the prophecies are all about the distant future.

If Antiochus was the man that came to his end at the resurrection why did he die some 2000 years ago?

 

[Retrobyter]

46 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

If Antiochus was the man that came to his end at the resurrection why did he die some 2000 years ago?

 

Shalom, Gary.

Because EVERY UNJUST INDIVIDUAL will be resurrected to face JUDGMENT at the Great White Throne with Yeshua` sitting upon that throne (John 5:22), and that INCLUDES Antiochus IV "Epiphanes!" He died about 2,186 years ago because he was WORTHY of death for all the deaths HE had caused, and because "it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the Judgment!" (Hebrews 9:27).

Yeshua` was born [to be] the King of the Jews. (Matthew 2:2). He was prophesied to be the King of Israel, reigning over the house of Ya`aqoV ("Jacob") forever! (Luke 1:33) And, Paul said He would reign until he had subdued ALL of His enemies, becoming the WORLD EMPEROR! (1 Corinthians 15:25).

We just had a shooting in Uvalde, Texas, by a kid that I am 100% SURE knew NOTHING about YHWH GOD and His Son, Yeshua` the Messiah, and had learned to BELITTLE the consequences! Without KNOWING that there is a GOD who holds EVERY LAST PERSON accountable for his or her actions and who values the life of every single person whom He has created, they don't know the FEAR OF STANDING BEFORE A GOD OF VENGEANCE! "IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD!" (Hebrews 10:31)

Our nation - fooey, our WORLD - needs to have more preachers like Jonathan Edwards! They need to be taught the FEAR of God, BEFORE they are taught about His love and mercy! He is FIRST AND FOREMOST a GOD OF JUSTICE, more than He is a "God of love!"

And when it comes to HUMAN law and order, as Polk County's Sheriff Grady Judd said, "The only one who can stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun!" 

As Paul said,

Romans 13:1-4 (KJV)

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, BE AFRAID; for he beareth not the sword (or gun) in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

However, both the person who is talked about in Daniel 11 and in Daniel 12 is not some "antichrist" figure in our future, but was talking about this king of the Seleucid Empire who died in 164 B.C.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Retrobyter
to get the quote right

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The 'vile person' in Daniel 11:21 until the time he comes to his end at the Second coming is the same person. Read each verse and it will be seen the identity never changes...from 11:21 to Dan. 11:45 it is the same man. At the time he comes to his end is at the time the resurrection of the good and bad occur.

Shalom, Gary.

I've gone back to this post to go into more detail:

The vile person in Daniel 11:21 in indeed Antiochus IV Epiphanes. But, he is only talked about between verses 21 and 34. He died in 164 B.C.

Verses 32 through 35 talk about his defeat by the Maccabees and the Hasmonean rulership.

Verses 36 through 39 speak about Herod the Great.

Verses 40 throught 43 talk about the last major battle that occurs over the Holy Land between Octavius and the Egyptian rulers, Mark Anthony and Cleopatra.

Then, it's back to Herod the Great in verses 44 and 45.

See HereALittleThereALittle.net on Daniel 11.

4 hours ago, transmogrified said:

It says 'and he shall come to his end and none shall help him...' Then it states AT THAT TIME the following events would take place:

1) Michael would stand up...

2) There would be a time of trouble...

3) Israel would be delivered...

4) Multitudes that sleep in the dust shall awake

Antiochus died is 164 BC....According to Daniel the man he is referring to comes to his end at the time when all the events listed including the resurrection will take place. 

If the man is Antiochus in Dan. 11:44  he would be over 2100 years old today and would have to remain alive until he is cast alive into the lake of fire at the Second Coming. This is nonsense. 

As can be seen the identity never changes from 11:21 until 11:45...This man that comes to his at the time the resurrection and Second Coming takes place is not Antiochus Epiphanes but is the one Paul spoke of 2 Thess. 2 who is destroyed at the brightness of his coming:

Also spoken of in Rev. 20:

Blessings to you- Gary

The rest of this I've already covered.

Good night.

[transmogrified]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Then, it's back to Herod the Great in verses 44 and 45.

Herod the Great died in 4 BC. The man that comes to his end in Dan. 11:45 doesn't come to his end until the resurrection takes place at the Second Coming...The same scenario exists as with Antiochus...Herod would have to be still alive to this day and not be killed until the Second Coming to be the man in 45...as it states...'AT THAT TIME' that the king comes to his end all the events listed will take place one of which is the resurrection. The resurrection has not yet happened...Herod has died some 2000 years ago. Herod is not the man it is talking about in Daniel 11:45.

Who is the man when it says 'And when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people?'

It says at the end of his 3.5 years all these things will be finished...the resurrection did not happen when Antiochus died, nor when Herod died in 4 BC. 

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The vile person in Daniel 11:21 in indeed Antiochus IV Epiphanes. But, he is only talked about between verses 21 and 34. He died in 164 B.C.Verses 32 through 35 talk about his defeat by the Maccabees and the Hasmonean rulership.

The king does not change identity between 32 -35...

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32- And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

33-And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

34-Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

35-And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

 

It is not the identity of the king that changes...He obtains the kingdom in 21...

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21-but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

27 shows him this same man to be the same king who deals with the king of the south...

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And both these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief,

 The king never changes identity between 33- 35...the king is not mentioned, it is 'they that understand among the people shall fall... (not the king)  'now when they (the people of understanding) shall fall, they (the people of understanding) shall be holpen with a little help..(still no change of King)...and some (not all) of them of understanding shall fall..(the king doesn't fall, some of those of understanding fall, to make them white, even to the time of the end..(still no change of king) ...then in verse 36:

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"And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, 

What king? The same king as was back dealing with the king of the south telling lies to each other...the same man who came in and took the kingdom with flatteries in 21...

Please show in the text where the identity of the king changes from the vile person to another king.

 

[transmogrified]

On 5/24/2022 at 10:48 PM, Retrobyter said:

So, when you said, "on the last day," the Greek text actually says "IN the final Day!" Again, this is the 1,000-year Day of the LORD.

Yes agreed. The Day of the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day...John 6 is specifically talking about the resurrection of the saints..this happens at the last trumpet which is also the 7th trumpet that sounds at the Second Coming.

The Second Coming happens on one day...when he sets foot on the Mt. of Olives, he is here...he is no longer coming but he has arrived. 

WHEN Jesus comes is when he sets upon the throne of his glory. The saints reign with him for a thousand years. At the time Jesus returns when he sets upon the throne of his glory is when he tells the sheep...inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the earth...this is the beginning of the 1000 year reign...From the day Christ returns and forward to the end of the 1000 years is the time span when the saints rule with Christ. For all the saints to rule with Christ for that time period, all must enter into the kingdom at the same point in time...so there are no other resurrected saints that enter into the kingdom beyond that day....he says to the entire body of sheep that are before him...inherit the kingdom...he doesn't say to some of the sheep 'inherit the kingdom' and then later tell some other sheep to inherit the kingdom...No. They all are told at one time to inherit the kingdom and from thence they begin to rule and reign with Christ.

On 5/24/2022 at 10:48 PM, Retrobyter said:

'For the Lord himself shall DESCEND from heaven with a shout.' So in order for him to descend with the saints, they have to be there first." 

Actually, this is misrepresented primarily by those who believe that we go to heaven when we die. If one will be honest, one must admit that verse 14 never said that "God will bring those who sleep in Jesus from heaven with Jesus!" Instead, the comparison is, "if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him!" The comparison is the death and resurrection of Yeshua` compared to the death and resurrection of those who sleep in Yeshua`!

The two witness in Rev. 11 are resurrected in a glorified body and they ascend up to heaven in a cloud and their enemies behold them. When they died, their spirit returned to God as happens to all the saints when they die. It is not a misrepresentation to say our spirit returns to God who gave it..it would be a misrepresentation to say each person receives their glorified body when they die. 

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If one will be honest, one must admit that verse 14 never said that "God will bring those who sleep in Jesus from heaven with Jesus!"

Absolutely false. Jesus is in heaven now. For all the saints to come with him, they have to be there first. The dead in Christ rise first. Where do they rise to? They rise to heaven. Where did the two witnesses rise to when they were resurrected? They heard a voice saying 'Come up hither,' and they ascended up TO HEAVEN in a cloud. Where did they go? They went UP TO HEAVEN. They are now there BEFORE Jesus returns, so when he comes he will be bringing these same two witnesses WITH him along with all the other saints who were resurrected and rose up to heaven. As it states...The Lord my God shall come and all the saints WITH thee.

On 5/24/2022 at 10:48 PM, Retrobyter said:

The comparison is the death and resurrection of Yeshua` compared to the death and resurrection of those who sleep in Yeshua`!

The  death and resurrection of Jesus is not comparing  his ascension into heaven or his descending back with the saints. God bringing those that sleep with him is what it states...the saints have to be first with him before they can come back with him. So yes, the death and resurrection of Jesus can be compared with Jesus coming down from heaven with his saints, in the same sense one can compare water with sand...because they can be compared does not mean they are the same thing. 

The word compare can mean:

1) To liken; to represent as similar, for the purpose of illustration. and it can also mean:

2) To set or bring things together in fact or in contemplation, and to examine the relations they bear to each other, with a view to ascertain their agreement or disagreement; 

The last definition is the one that should be used...'with a view to ascertain their agreement or disagreement.' 

Comparing the death and resurrection with Jesus descending down from heaven are two different things...so they cannot be used in the first definition 'to represent as similar' because the two things are not similar...when we compare these two things we see their disagreement, not their agreement.

So when it says 'Those that sleep in Jesus God will bring with him, it is not  represented as being similar to 'the death and resurrection of Jesus.' No. These are two  different things and are not similar. 

On 5/24/2022 at 10:48 PM, Retrobyter said:

People like to think that our "souls" "go to heaven when we die,"

Scripture states the spirit returns to God who gave it...when it says:

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And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

this is when they are resurrected and have received their glorified body...in the same way the two witnesses received their glorified body and ascended up to heaven...now they are there in their glorified body and in that state, and from this location, (heaven where God is) they will return with Christ to the earth. 

 

[Retrobyter]

28 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Herod the Great died in 4 BC. The man that comes to his end in Dan. 11:45 doesn't come to his end until the resurrection takes place at the Second Coming...

Shalom, Gary.

Aw, how do you figure that? That's a MADE-UP scenario! It certainly doesn't come from the Scriptures!

Daniel 11:45 (KJV)

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles (tents) of his palace between the seas (the Mediterranean and the Dead Seas) in the glorious holy mountain (Mount Zion); yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

So, where'd you get THAT notion? That is PRECISELY what king Herod the Great did, though. He built his palace IN JERUSALEM along the western wall of the Old City!

28 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

The same scenario exists as with Antiochus...Herod would have to be still alive to this day and not be killed until the Second Coming to be the man in 45...as it states...'AT THAT TIME' that the king comes to his end all the events listed will take place one of which is the resurrection. The resurrection has not yet happened...Herod has died some 2000 years ago. Herod is not the man it is talking about in Daniel 11:45.

Get off this "Second Coming/Resurrection" kick! NOTHING within the text of Daniel 11 demands it! If the king is NOT the "antichrist" (and he's NOT), then NOTHING you've said is about this king! To the contrary, chapter 11 talks about MANY people in history!

Starting with "Darius the Mede," it also mentions Cambyses II, Gaumata the Magian, and Darius I (the next three kings of Persia), and then the 4th was Xerxes. It also mentions Alexander the Great, Cassander of Greece, Lysimachus of Asia Minor, Seleucus I Nicator over Babylon and Persia, and Ptolemy I Soter over Egypt and the Holy Land. It continues to talk about Ptolemy II Philadelphus, Berenice his sister and Antiochus II Theos her husband, the next king of the Seleucid Empire. Laodice, the first wife of Antiochus II, and her son Seleucus II Callinicus, who became its next ruler. Verse 7 talks about Ptolemy III Euergetes who retaliated for his sister's death and killed Laodice. Verse 8 talks about the Third Syrian War between Ptolemy III and Seleucus II and brought back Egypt's gods and gold and silver from Antioch, the capital city of the Seleucid Empire. He also outlived Seleucus II who fell of his horse and died. The chapter also mentions Seleucus III Ceraunus, Antiochus III the Great, Ptolemy IV Philopater, Ptolemy V, Cleopatra I, and THEN Antiochus IV in verse 21! While his exploits were mentioned the longest (from verse 21 through 34, with verse 31 being the abomination of desolation with the setting up of the idol of Zeus Olympus over the brazen altar and sacrificing a pig on the altar), the chapter doesn't end with him!

28 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Who is the man when it says 'And when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people?'

I take it you've now moved into Daniel 12:7? Let's look at the passage:

Daniel 12:4-9 (KJV)

4 "... But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river,

"How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?"

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that 

"it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I,

"O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?"

9 And he said,

"Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end!"

I believe they were talking about the MESSIAH Yeshua`s Offer of the Kingdom to the Jews for 3.5 years during His First Advent! HE was the One who left them desolate for their abominations in His rejection, and GOD scattered the power of the holy people until the time of the end! (Daniel 9:26-27 cf. Matthew 23:37-39).

28 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

It says at the end of his 3.5 years all these things will be finished...the resurrection did not happen when Antiochus died, nor when Herod died in 4 BC.

Why do you insist on talking about the resurrection? If you want a resurrection, after both of them died, the Messiah of God, Yeshua` from Nazareth lived, offered the Kingdom to the Jews, died, was buried, and WAS RESURRECTED!

28 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

The king does not change identity between 32 -35...

No? Verses 34 and 35 talk about the exploits of Judas Maccabee and his brother Simon, and while they fell in battles, others took their place and the Maccabees saved the Jews from the surrounding Gentiles, and ushered in the Hasmonean rulership.

28 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

It is not the identity of the king that changes...He obtains the kingdom in 21...

Yes, Antiochus IV obtained the throne in verse 21, but it was HOW he obtained it! He obtained it by INTRIGUE! He had switched places with Demetrius as the hostage in Rome, who was the next in line to be king, and when Seleucus IV was poisoned by his minister Heliodorus he sailed from Athens to Pergamum and got support from the King of Pergamum, Eumenes II, and his brother Attalus by flattery! Then, he went home to take Heliodorus' place as "the protector of the infant son of his older brother Seleucus IV" and be his "co-regent" while he was so young, and then while he was away, "someone" murdered the baby, and he became the sole king!

28 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

27 shows him this same man to be the same king who deals with the king of the south...

Yes, there were always rivalries between the Seleucid Empire and the Ptolemies! Antiochus IV, however, did it with a twist! In verses 23 and 24, he came into Egypt to "help" his young nephew, Ptolemy VI Philometer, the son of his sister, Cleopatra I, with only a "small army" (so as not to arouse suspicion) and makes an alliance with him. He decided to stay and "help" and took over Egypt. He spread the wealth of his other campaigns and won the hearts of many Egyptians. Then, he thought he could just come in and conquer Egypt. Things didn't go as he expected. Ptolemy VI and Ptolemy VII, his brother, joined forces against their uncle. After the first couple of unsuccessful tries to get their uncle to back off, they enlisted help from Rome. ROME makes him back off, and not happy with the results, takes out his frustrations on the Jews as he returns home!

28 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

 The king never changes identity between 33- 35...the king is not mentioned, it is 'they that understand among the people shall fall... (not the king)  'now when they (the people of understanding) shall fall, they (the people of understanding) shall be holpen with a little help..(still no change of King)...and some (not all) of them of understanding shall fall..(the king doesn't fall, some of those of understanding fall, to make them white, even to the time of the end..(still no change of king) ...then in verse 36:

Right, because by verse 33, we're seeing the shift between Antiochus IV and the Hasmodeans! Antiochus IV died in Persia trying to steal treasure from Elymais, Persia, being thwarted, and then learning that back home his army had been losing to the Maccabee - the Hammer! He took ill and died there. That he is not mentioned any more is a TRIBUTE to the prophecy! Why give him any more thought?!

28 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

What king? The same king as was back dealing with the king of the south telling lies to each other...the same man who came in and took the kingdom with flatteries in 21...

Please show in the text where the identity of the king changes from the vile person to another king

Sure.

Daniel 11:32-35 (KJV)

32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant (Jewish Hellenizers) shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God (the priests, like Judas and Simon and their father Mattathias) shall be strong, and do exploits. 33 And they that understand among the people (the underlying core of loyal Jews) shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. (This speaks of the rule of Hasmoneans.)

First, the rulership changes hands from the Seleucid Empire and Antiochus IV when Judas Maccabee is aided by God and begins to win against them with a handful of warriors. Then, when Judas died, His brother Jonathan took up the leadership and continued to win in God's power! After John, Simon Thassi became ruler and from Simon and on, Judea had become independent for a brief time, and his dynasty was considered independent of the dying Seleucid Empire and Rome (having internal problems at the time) and Egypt, who had appealed to Rome and laid claim to the Seleucid Empire. The Hasmodean dynasty survived until Rome regained power and made Judea, Samaria, and Idumea into the single Roman client state of Judaea and installed Herod the Great, an Idumean, as its client king. To bolster his claim to the throne, he married a Hasmodean princess, Mariamne.

Now, pick up the reading in Daniel 11:

Daniel 11:36-45 (KJV)

36 And the king (Herod I) shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. (This is all about Herod the Great.)

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 

44 But tidings out of the east (the Magi) and out of the north (Rome) shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Herod the Great died alone because no one could trust or stomach the man! For a rather thorough description of his death by Josephus and Eusebius of Caesaria see EarlyChurchHistory.org on Herod the Great's death. Be forewarned; it's pretty graphic!

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes agreed. The Day of the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day...John 6 is specifically talking about the resurrection of the saints..this happens at the last trumpet which is also the 7th trumpet that sounds at the Second Coming.

The Second Coming happens on one day...when he sets foot on the Mt. of Olives, he is here...he is no longer coming but he has arrived.

Shalom, Gary.

Ummm... no. His Second Coming actually begins when He comes IN THE AIR, sending out His messengers to gather His elect from the four compass directions of the earth and from the top of the sky to the bottom of the atmosphere under ground. Then, His first stop is in Edom for He has a controversy with those in Botsrah!

First, we read this:

Isaiah 34:1-17 (KJV)

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. 3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. 6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath A SACRIFICE IN BOZRAH, AND A GREAT SLAUGHTER IN THE LAND OF IDUMEA. 7 And the unicorns (wild bull oxen) shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. 8 For it is THE DAY OF THE LORD'S VENGEANCE, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. 9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch (tar), and the dust thereof into brimstone (sulfur), and the land thereof shall become burning pitch (burning tar). 10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. 

11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness. 12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing. 13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons (lizards), and a court for owls. 14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr (wild goat) shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest. 15 There shall the great owl (the arrow snake) make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures (hawks) also be gathered, every one with her mate. 16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them. 17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.

Then we read,

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?" 

"I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save."

2 "Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?"

3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth!"

Then, we learn this BEFORE we come to Zechariah 14:

Zechariah 12:1-14 (KJV)

1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces (shall be given a hernia), though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day," saith the LORD, "I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, 'The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.'

6 "In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem." 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 

9 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem."

10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced,"

and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart;
the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart;
the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart;
the family of [the] Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Zechariah 13:1- (KJV)

1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

2 "And it shall come to pass in that day," saith the LORD of hosts, "that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land. 3And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him,

"'Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD!':

"and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth. 4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive: 5 But he shall say,

"'I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.'

6 "And one shall say unto him,

"'What are these wounds in thine hands?'

"Then he shall answer, 

"'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.'

7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow," saith the LORD of hosts: "smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. 8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land," saith the LORD, "two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say,

"'It is my people':

"and they shall say,

"'The LORD is my God.'"

THEN AND ONLY THEN do we read Zechariah 14:

Zechariah 14:1-9 (KJV)

1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 

2 "For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city." 

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. (This is the beginning of the 1,000-year day!)

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea (the Dead Sea), and half of them toward the hinder sea (the Mediterranean Sea): in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the LORD shall be KING OVER ALL THE EARTH: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

WHEN Jesus comes is when he sits upon the throne of his glory. The saints reign with him for a thousand years. At the time Jesus returns, when he sits upon the throne of his glory, is when he tells the sheep...inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the earth...this is the beginning of the 1000 year reign...From the day Christ returns and forward to the end of the 1000 years is the time span when the saints rule with Christ. For all the saints to rule with Christ for that time period, all must enter into the kingdom at the same point in time...

I can agree with you (for the most part) up to this point. Things may be said a little imprecisely, but overall, your logic is sound up to this point.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

so there are no other resurrected saints that enter into the kingdom beyond that day....he says to the entire body of sheep that are before him...inherit the kingdom...he doesn't say to some of the sheep 'inherit the kingdom' and then later tell some other sheep to inherit the kingdom...No. They all are told at one time to inherit the kingdom and from thence they begin to rule and reign with Christ.

THIS is a conclusion with which I cannot agree. You're forgetting some things:

First of all, there will be NATURAL people who live during this 1,000 years. They will live for 75 to 80 years (at most, on average) and die of old age (or prematurely from some other reason). Those BORN during the 1,000 years will be innocent of sin until such time as they can be convinced of their own accountability for their selfish actions.

If born in one of the nations that inherited the Kingdom, they will have a much easier likelihood of meeting the Melekh Yeshua` haMashiyach Elohiym directly and finding Him to be the source of their forgiveness. It's also possible that the prophecy in Isaiah applies to them:

Isaiah 65:20 (KJV)

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child(hood) (puberty) shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Those born within the Kingdom, will still be in the future at the Second Coming. It's possible that the children born within the Kingdom will have longer lives, as those before the Flood did. This would give them a significantly long time to make that eternal choice. If the sinner doesn't choose rightly before he's a hundred years old, then he will be accursed, like the other nations of the earth. This might be another way that tares are introduced into the Messiah's Kingdom!

Those born in a nation that was told "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels," will not be immediately thrown into the Lake of Fire but will still have a chance to meet the Melekh Yeshua` ("King Jesus") and discover His payment for sin, but it is going to be MUCH harder for that individual! It's still possible because the "glowing ones" will walk the earth! And, they would be the ones to whom one could go to learn about the Melekh Yeshua`, but these nations were CURSED and so, one will find it hard to abandon that nation in which they were born, but abandoning their mother country may be their only chance!

Those who are born of the flesh and born again of the Spirit during the 1,000 years will also have the opportunity to accept Yeshua` sacrifice for their own sins, and BECOME a believer through God's justification! I believe that these will be transformed, and they, too, will begin to glow!

Others who die because of some fluke accident will need to be resurrected, if they are still innocent of what sin is. Some may have come to believe just prior to their accidental death, and when they are resurrected will also be transformed into a glorified body - a shining body!

While some cases will likely be no-brainers for the disciples/kings to whom they are brought for healing or resurrection, I'm sure that there will be other cases which will be escalated to the Messiah to judge and resurrect.

These are some things to think about!

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The two witness in Rev. 11 are resurrected in a glorified body and they ascend up to heaven in a cloud and their enemies behold them. When they died, their spirit returned to God as happens to all the saints when they die. It is not a misrepresentation to say our spirit returns to God who gave it..it would be a misrepresentation to say each person receives their glorified body when they die.

Actually, I believe that BOTH are misrepresentations of the Scriptures! Our "breaths" do go back to God who is "Spirit" - a "WIND," but WE are not those "breaths!" WE are the ones who go into the ground, no longer "breathing creatures!"

Consider carefully the resurrection of the whole house of Israel seen by Ezekiel in Ezekiel 37:

Ezekiel 37:1-14 (KJV)

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit (on the wind) of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me,

"Son of man, can these bones live?"

And I answered,

"O Lord GOD, thou knowest."

4 Again he said unto me,

"Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them,

"'O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones;

"'"Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD."'"

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me,

"Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live."'"

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath (SINGULAR) came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me,

"Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say,

"'Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.'

12 "Therefore prophesy and say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit (Hebrew: ruwchiy = "my-spirit") in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it," saith the LORD.'"

He doesn't put their breaths ("spirits") back into the bodies; He puts HIS Breath ("Spirit") into them, and they live!

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Absolutely false. Jesus is in heaven now.

No, Yeshua` is NOT in "heaven," per se; He is in His Father's House! That's the New Jerusalem, where He is currently building rooms for each one of us. This is said to be an "epouranios" city; that is, a city "from above the sky." It's the same word that was translated as "celestial" in 1 Corinthians 15:39-40 where Paul is talking about the "glory of the celesial bodies" and then talks about the "glory of the sun, the glory of the moon, and the glory of the stars, each star differing from another in glory or brightness."

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

For all the saints to come with him, they have to be there first.

Not so! He returns to the sky first, His saints are resurrected as new bodies, and THEN God brings them with Him!

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The dead in Christ rise first. Where do they rise to? They rise to heaven.

IF you were using the old definition for "heaven," I'd agree with you. But the word used to mean "the sky," just as the Greek word translated as "heaven," "ouranos" does! They DON'T go up to some "God's abode!" Sorry, but God is OMNIPRESENT! What does that mean about God's "abode?"

Yeshua` said the New Jerusalem (since that is what is currently being built) was His Father's "House." John had quoted it called "God's TENT" like a Bedouin tent in which Avraham lived. John is also quick to say that he saw no temple in the city. And, Solomon said that "the heaven of the heavens could not contain God! How much less this house that I build?"

The bottom line is that the "dead in Christ" do NOT rise to "heaven"; they rise into the SKY to meet the Lord Yeshua` in the AIR!

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Where did the two witnesses rise to when they were resurrected? They heard a voice saying 'Come up hither,' and they ascended up TO HEAVEN in a cloud.

Again, they rose INTO THE SKY and a cloud of the sky!

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Where did they go? They went UP TO HEAVEN. They are now there BEFORE Jesus returns, so when he comes he will be bringing these same two witnesses WITH him along with all the other saints who were resurrected and rose up to heaven. As it states...The Lord my God shall come and all the saints WITH thee.

Yes! AFTER they have been raise to life! THEN "the Lord my God shall come and all the saints with thee." (Although, that may not be the precise wording.)

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The  death and resurrection of Jesus is not comparing  his ascension into heaven or his descending back with the saints. God bringing those that sleep with him is what it states...the saints have to be first with him before they can come back with him. So yes, the death and resurrection of Jesus can be compared with Jesus coming down from heaven with his saints, in the same sense one can compare water with sand...because they can be compared does not mean they are the same thing. 

Isn't that kind of a wasted trip? UP and DOWN. What's the point? We don't even know how far we'd be going! And, what are those who were just transformed supposed to do? Sit around and wait for them to get back? That's really a poor way of looking at that passage of Scripture.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The word compare can mean:

1) To liken; to represent as similar, for the purpose of illustration. and it can also mean:

2) To set or bring things together in fact or in contemplation, and to examine the relations they bear to each other, with a view to ascertain their agreement or disagreement; 

The last definition is the one that should be used...'with a view to ascertain their agreement or disagreement.' 

Comparing the death and resurrection with Jesus descending down from heaven are two different things...so they cannot be used in the first definition 'to represent as similar' because the two things are not similar...when we compare these two things we see their disagreement, not their agreement.

So when it says 'Those that sleep in Jesus God will bring with him, it is not  represented as being similar to 'the death and resurrection of Jesus.' No. These are two  different things and are not similar. 

Scripture states the spirit returns to God who gave it...when it says:

this is when they are resurrected and have received their glorified body...in the same way the two witnesses received their glorified body and ascended up to heaven...now they are there in their glorified body and in that state, and from this location, (heaven where God is) they will return with Christ to the earth. 

 

This is so convoluted, that I'm not even going to attempt it tonight. Shalom.

[transmogrified]

On 5/26/2022 at 1:43 PM, Retrobyter said:

Get off this "Second Coming/Resurrection" kick! NOTHING within the text of Daniel 11 demands it! If the king is NOT the "antichrist" (and he's NOT), then NOTHING you've said is about this king! To the contrary, chapter 11 talks about MANY people in history!

At the time the man in Dan. 11:45 comes to his end is when the resurrection takes place in Dan. 12:3...the divisions of chapters means nothing unless the context changes. The man in Dan. 11:45 comes to his end and then it says 'AT THAT TIME' these things will happen...

1) Michael stands up..

2) There will be a time of trouble...

3) Israel will be delivered...

4) Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth awake...

One can not say the first 3 items were a fulfillment of prophecy around 70 AD when such and such king died and then say but the resurrection will happen some 2000 years after such and such king died...NO. It does not say the first 3 items will be fulfilled when he comes to his end but the resurrection will happen some 2000 years after he comes to his end.

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NOTHING within the text of Daniel 11 demands it!

I was referring to the text of Daniel 12 which does include the resurrection, which, by extension means the Second Coming.

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If the king is NOT the "antichrist" (and he's NOT), then NOTHING you've said is about this king!

The only king that fits this description when the resurrection takes place is the man of sin who scatters the power of the holy people and reigns for 3. 5 years. The resurrection can not be placed at a different time than when the man in Daniel 11:45 comes to his end. Saying the tribulation lasts 2000 years does not eliminate the fact that the resurrection still happened when he comes to his end, which of course never happened when Herod or Antiochus came to their end.

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To the contrary, chapter 11 talks about MANY people in history!

 It was never said Daniel 11 was exclusively talking about the man of sin.