Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Uriah said:

I think it is pretty clear that the armies of heaven are angels. All through the O.T. we read of the "Lord of hosts" these hosts are the angelic armies as seen when Elijah asked for his servant's eyes to be opened to see them. Or the ones in the legions Jesus referred to before He was crucified.

Angels are seen in scripture wearing , white, fine linen etc.

We are His bride, not His army. What husband has his wife go out and fight his enemies? Also the scripture makes a distinction between His angels and His elect.

It seems to me the that bride is rescued by Jesus and His army on the last Day when He shows up on His white horse. The bride is seen having been raised into the air at that point ....THAT is where is says she is given her new attire....not before. 

Shabbat shalom, Uriah.

I didn't say that it was a fact that we might be the angels of the resurrection/rapture; I just said it was a theory. Real, supernatural messengers ("angels") could be involved, as well.

HOWEVER, we are NOT "His bride." That's a myth that was started around Ephesians 5 that has no real basis in fact. Let's read it carefully:

Before starting, let's look up a common word in the English that is FREQUENTLY misunderstood and abused: "church."

1577 ekkleesia (ek-klay-see'-ah). From a compound of ek and a derivative of kaleoo; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both)
-- assembly, church.

1537 ek or ex (ek). A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote)
-- after, among, X are, at, betwixt(-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for(- th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in,...ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with(-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

2564 kaleoo (kal-eh'-o). Akin to the base of keleuoo; to "call" (properly, aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise)
-- bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-)name (was (called)).

2753 keleuoo (kel-yoo'-o). From a primary kelloo (to urge on); "hail"; to incite by word, i.e. Order
-- bid, (at, give) command(-ment).

On the other hand, the word "church" has a different origin, also from the Greek:

church | CHərCH | 

noun 

• a building used for public Christian worship: they came to church with me. 
• (Church) a particular Christian organization, typically one with its own clergy, buildings, and distinctive doctrines: the Church of England. 
• (the Church) the hierarchy of clergy of a Christian organization, especially the Roman Catholic Church or the Church of England. 
• institutionalized religion as a political or social force: the separation of church and state. 

verb [with object] archaic 

take (a woman who has recently given birth) to church for a service of thanksgiving. 

ORIGIN

Old English cir(i)ce, cyr(i)ce, related to Dutch kerk and German Kirche, based on medieval Greek kurikon, from Greek kuriakon (dōma) ‘Lord's (house)’, from kurios ‘master or lord’. Compare with kirk.

Technically, the word in the Greek of the text of Ephesians 5 means "a called-out" group or gathering. The word "kuriakon" was added later to specify WHICH group or gathering, i.e. that "of the Lord," and ended up replacing the original word altogether. Now, we read "church" instead.

There are two other locations in Scripture that do NOT refer to what most think of when they say the word "church":

Acts 7:37-38 (KJV)

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

This speaks of the congregation of the children of Israel when they were at the foot of Mount Sinai, and...

Acts 19:21-41 (KJV) 

21 After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, "After I have been there, I must also see Rome." 22 So he sent into Macedonia two of them that ministered unto him, Timotheus and Erastus; but he himself stayed in Asia for a season.

23 And the same time there arose no small stir about that way. 24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen; 25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said,

"Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth. 26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands: 27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth."

28 And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying,

"Great is Diana of the Ephesians!"

 29 And the whole city was filled with confusion: and having caught Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul's companions in travel, they rushed with one accord into the theatre. 30 And when Paul would have entered in unto the people, the disciples suffered him not. 31 And certain of the chief of Asia, which were his friends, sent unto him, desiring him that he would not adventure himself into the theatre. 32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly (Greek: ekkleesia) was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together. 33 And they drew Alexander out of the multitude, the Jews putting him forward. And Alexander beckoned with the hand, and would have made his defence unto the people. 34 But when they knew that he was a Jew, all with one voice about the space of two hours cried out,

"Great is Diana of the Ephesians!" 

35 And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said,

"Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Jupiter? 36 Seeing then that these things cannot be spoken against, ye ought to be quiet, and to do nothing rashly. 37 For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches (Greek: hierosulous = "temple-plunderers"), nor yet blasphemers of your goddess. 38 Wherefore if Demetrius, and the craftsmen which are with him, have a matter against any man, the law is open, and there are deputies: let them implead one another. 39 But if ye inquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly (Greek: ekkleesia). 40 For we are in danger to be called in question for this day's uproar, there being no cause whereby we may give an account of this concourse."

41 And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly.

In this passage, we are seeing that the word was used for a public gathering of the city's population, both as an unlawful riot and as a lawful assembly. Furthermore, we learn that the word is a COLLECTIVE NOUN, like the words "flock" of sheep, "herd" of cattle, or "school" of fish.

Therefore, CONTEXT determines how a word is to be used. Now, let's look at Ephesians 5:

Ephesians 5:22-33 (KJV)

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church ("called-out" group): and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church ("called-out" group) is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church ("called-out" group), and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church ("called-out" group), not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church ("called-out" group): 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery (secret): but I speak concerning Christ and the church ("called-out" group). 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

This passage is saying that this "called-out" group is a group of TWO, the married couple who become ONE FLESH! The Messiah didn't give Himself for a nebulous entity called a "church"; He gave Himself for PEOPLE, for INDIVIDUALS!

Furthermore, nowhere in this passage is this "church" called the "bride of Christ." The word "bride" IS used in Scripture, but it's found as a metaphor and as a simile, both in the book of Revelation:

Revelation 21:2 (KJV)

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Using the word "as" makes this a simile, and this verse says that the NEW JERUSALEM is LIKE a bride all dressed up in her wedding gown for her husband!

Revelation 21:9-10 (KJV)

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,

"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,...

In this particular case, the NEW JERUSALEM is said actually to BE "the bride, the Lamb's wife." It does NOT say that the people within the city are the "bride"; it says the CITY is the "bride!" In this case it is a metaphor!

The NEW JERUSALEM IS the Bride of the Messiah!

[Uriah]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."

The NEW JERUSALEM IS the Bride of the Messiah!

Rev. 21:2- And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The word "as" makes it a simile. So the bride/wife is NOT a city but the people IN the city. He didn't redeem and marry a beautiful building, but the church is the living stones that Peter spoke of. Does the city wear white linen, as shown earlier? No. You may have simply lost focus for a minute.

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by Uriah

[Retrobyter]

On 11/24/2018 at 7:26 AM, Uriah said:

Rev. 21:2- And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The word "as" makes it a simile. So the bride/wife is NOT a city but the people IN the city. He didn't redeem and marry a beautiful building, but the church is the living stones that Peter spoke of. Does the city wear white linen, as shown earlier? No. You may have simply lost focus for a minute.

 

Shalom, Uriah.

No, didn't lose focus. You've got it wrong. The City itself IS the "Bride of Christ"; and, yes, it is prepared LIKE a bride adorned for her husband! That's the WHOLE POINT! The City is so beautiful that it was introduced to Yochanan ("John") as "the Bride!" You've obviously never studied the sheer size and beauty of the New Jerusalem!

This City is MASSIVE!!! (And, that's an understatement!) It stretches 12,000 "furlongs" in BOTH directions from any one of its corners! That's 1,379.868687 miles long, 1,379.868687 miles wide, and 1,379.868687 miles HIGH! That's easy to say, but VERY difficult to comprehend! Many think that because Revelation 21: 16 says that the city "lieth foursquare" that it is a cube. It can't be a cube. That's because it LANDS on the New Earth, and assuming that the New Earth after the Global Fire will have similar dimensions to the Earth on which we dwell, which has a radius of 3,963.18894 miles and which has similar dimensions to the Earth before the Flood in spite of the Global Flood, then it will cover almost 20 degrees (19.949 degrees) of the Earth's circumference (24,902 miles) from one side of the City to the opposite side of the City! That means that "down" on one side of the City will be almost 20 degrees different than "down" on the opposite side of the City! So, a cube doesn't fit. It could be a pyramid shape, however, because a regular, four-sided pyramid can also said to "lie foursquare," which means that it has a square footprint or it covers an area that is square in shape.

To keep this in perspective, the height of Mount Everest (29,029 feet) is only about 5.5 miles (5.4979 miles) high above sea level! That means that the height of this city is more than 250 TIMES HIGHER THAN MOUNT EVEREST!!!

I believe that the 12 foundations are 12 foundational LEVELS to the City. And, assuming that they would be equally spaced apart, that gives us 1,379.868687 / 12 = 114.989 miles from the top of one foundation to the top of the next foundation above it! That's still almost 21 times higher than Mount Everest! This City is HUGE, bigger than most can even imagine!

God's throneroom and that of the Lamb will be in the pinnacle of the structure, since Yeshua` is said to be the "Head Stone of the Corner," the CAPSTONE! That places the light for this City in its highest point. It will filter through each of the foundational levels all the way to the bottom!

Every foundational level will be significantly different than the one above it or below it. If one is on the second level, for instance, the "floor" will be sapphire (lapis lazuli) and the "sky" will be a bright grey in color from the chalcedony. On the third level, the "floor" will be that bright grey chalcedony, but the "sky" will be a brilliant, emerald green! Of course, millions of other gems will be visible on each level, as well, and the city will be golden, the street of the city will be of gold with that clear, life-sustaining water in the middle of the median of the street with a green park of trees, dominated by the Tree of Life species, throughout the city on EVERY level! 

Each gate of the city will consist of one GIANT pearl rolled away from the gateway like the stone was rolled away from the sepulchre's doorway that first Easter morning with a supernatural messenger sitting upon each one! And, although there are twelve gates, if these gates are evenly dispersed around the city, they will be about 460 miles apart from the center of the gate to the center of the next gate!

With the light shining from its pinnacle - its capstone, that light will reach from Norway to Zimbabwe, from Morocco to China! There's a beautiful verse in the Tanakh (the Old Testament) that reveals some wonderful information.

Isaiah 24:23 (KJV)

23 Then the moon shall be confounded (mixed up), and the sun ashamed (outdone), when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

We're told that the CITY will have no need of the sun or the moon, but that's not true for the entire earth. To the contrary, we are told that the sun and moon shall endure forever!

Psalm 89:34-37 (KJV)

34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

The sun and the moon are NOT "destroyed," as some teach, but the sun SHALL be outdone by the light of God through the Lamb, and the moon SHALL have its phases mixed-up by light coming from two different sources!

Edited November 25, 2018 by Retrobyter
to fix late night drowsiness

[Uriah]

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 1  You've obviously never studied the sheer size and beauty of the New Jerusalem!

2   it LANDS on the New Earth,

1- This is merely an assumption you have made because my conclusions may not be the same as yours.

2- So of course you can show a bible verse that says this......

I had hoped you would at least have included something regarding the scripture I showed about the bride in white linen.

Rev. 19:7 & 8- Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Yet it appears you deny that THIS is His wife/bride and instead it is the "city". I still say it is the people IN the city.

I have in fact studied about NJ and have included a portion of my to cover the topic.

So even in the pyramid form the same situation occurs as in this picture I found. It has been estimated that the base, to be at ground level at the perimeter would need about 70 miles (deep) of excavation in the center of it. it would also eliminate Israel and surrounding countries

Edited November 25, 2018 by Uriah

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

1- This is merely an assumption you have made because my conclusions may not be the same as yours.

2- So of course you can show a bible verse that says this......

I had hoped you would at least have included something regarding the scripture I showed about the bride in white linen.

Rev. 19:7 & 8- Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Yet it appears you deny that THIS is His wife/bride and instead it is the "city". I still say it is the people IN the city.

I have in fact studied about NJ and have included a portion of my to cover the topic.

So even in the pyramid form the same situation occurs as in this picture I found. It has been estimated that the base, to be at ground level at the perimeter would need about 70 miles (deep) of excavation in the center of it. it would also eliminate Israel and surrounding countries

Shalom, Uriah.

Sorry it's taken a while to get back to you. Been working on my "honey-do" list, and also working on the research regarding the word "linen." Here's what I've found:

Out of the 102 occurrences of the word in the King James Version of the Bible, 84 are in the OT and 18 in the NT. Of the 84, 49 are found in the Torah (the Pentateuch) and all are about the tabernacle's linen or the linen of the priests' clothes. The ONLY place that "linen" is used for the clothes of ANYONE who could remotely be called an "angel" would be in Daniel. However, the text doesn't use the Hebrew word for "angel" ("mal'akh") and calls him a "man." Furthermore, it is a VISION of a GLOWING man.

Of the 18 occurrences in the NT, most are about the burial of Yeshua` who was wrapped in linen. One time, it was about how the rich man was dressed in Yeshua`s parable about the rich man and Lazarus. In Revelation, some of the occurrences are about the merchandise of Babylon. ONLY in the book of Revelation might it refer to "angels" as you mean the word, that is, "supernatural beings." So, when you said, 

"Angels are seen in scripture wearing , white, fine linen etc."

you were being a bit misleading.

HOWEVER, you need to have some additional information about these "angels" that is NOT common knowledge.

Revelation 21:9 (KJV)

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,

"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."

Revelation 22:8-9 (KJV)

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me,

"See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."

The Greek is very telling, and most translations miss the point. What clued me to this is how the English would be expanded: "I am thy fellowservant, and (I am) of thy brethren the prophets, and (I am) of them which keep the sayings of this book."

Here's the Greek:

9 Kai legei moi,

“Oora mee! Sundoulos sou eimi kai toon adelfoon sou toon profeetoon kai toon teerountoon tous logous tou bibliou toutou; too Theoo proskuneeson.”

"Do-that not! A fellow-slave of-you I-am and with-the brothers of-you the prophets and with-the keepers of-the words of-the book this-one; the God worship."

This "angel" is one of Yochanan's ("John's") brothers the PROPHETS! And, he is also "with the guardians of the words of this book," the Bible! He is a messenger (Greek: aggelos) from God, but he was HUMAN!

NOW, we can talk about Rev. 19:8.

Revelation 19:7-8 (KJV)

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

While the first part sounds like the "wife of the Lamb" is being "arrayed in fine linen," the truth is that this, too, is a METAPHOR! The "fine linen" is the RIGHEOUSNESS of the holy ones, not actual fine linen!

Point 1: When I said, "You've obviously never studied the sheer size and beauty of the New Jerusalem," it's not a matter of opinions and conclusions. It's a matter of what the Scriptures say! The text of Scripture, particularly as worded in the Greek for the NT (Hebrew for the OT), is our YARDSTICK! It's our set of ABSOLUTES that shall never change, regardless what opinions and conclusions say.

Point 2: Sure, there are a multitude of contextual clues that give us the ability to state with confidence that the New Jerusalem shall LAND upon the New Earth. Let's start with a few basic ones:

Revelation 21:13 (KJV)

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

Thus, the city is aligned with true north. To do that effectively, the city CANNOT be a satellite that would SPIN in the freefall of its orbit by the sheer physics of its revolution. People often do not understand what constitutes an "orbit." They think it "hovers" in space. It's actually more like Abbott and Costello's routine:

Costello: I'm so frustrated! I'm so frustrated!
Abbott: Why? What's wrong?
Costello: Yesterday, I was so frustrated that I threw myself to the ground!
Abbott: What happened?
Costello: I MISSED it!

A satellite in orbit is constantly falling to the ground, but by the time it gets there, it's going so fast that it actually MISSES the ground! It goes beyond the curvature of the earth! It's actually TRAPPED in freefall! An object in freefall is always rotating about one or more axes, sometimes all three!

Here's another clue, actually two clues:

Revelation 21:24-26 (KJV)

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

The gates won't be shut at all! "There shall be no night there" means that it will always be daytime. That's possible with God's light emanating from the Lamb all the time. If the gates are only shut at night, then the gates shall always stand open! That means that the New Earth's atmosphere, the New Sky, will be free to flow into and out of the first floor of the city. If the city were in orbit, the air necessary for the plants (e.g., the Tree of Life) within the city would be free to escape, causing the plantlife to die.

The kings of the earth shall also bring their glory and honor into the city. They, too, will need the oxygen in the atmosphere. Therefore, the city shall land.

Revelation 21:14 (KJV)

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Another obvious clue is that there are twelve FOUNDATIONS to the wall of the city. I rather believe that eleven of them are other levels to the city, but one would think that at least the first foundation would be doing what foundations do! It anchors the city to the ground!

As for your picture above, you're forgetting a key ingredient. Ask yourself, what constitutes "LEVEL GROUND?" The base of the city, whether it be a "cube" or a "pyramid," must follow the sphere of the earth to be "level!" That's what I mean when I say that the cube doesn't work! Either the top is measurably too long (greater than 12,000 furlongs because its shape is more like a curved trapezoid) OR the top would be topocentrically too short (keeping it a true cube from space, the top would be less than 12,000 furlongs from the viewpoint of the ground)! Remember: There's almost a 20-DEGREE difference in "down" from one side of the city to the other!

Finally, if you believe as I do, the people who are resurrected and transformed are here on this earth during the Millennium helping with the governing of affairs. Don't forget Revelation 20:

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

And remember Yeshua` parable:

Luke 19:11-27 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. 17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. 20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. 22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? 24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. 25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) 26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

So, being here on earth, we won't be in the New Jerusalem as it lands!

[Uriah]

21 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Uriah.

Sorry it's taken a while to get back to you. Been working on my "honey-do" list, and also working on the research regarding the word "linen." Here's what I've found:

Out of the 102 occurrences of the word in the King James Version of the Bible, 84 are in the OT and 18 in the NT. Of the 84, 49 are found in the Torah (the Pentateuch) and all are about the tabernacle's linen or the linen of the priests' clothes. The ONLY place that "linen" is used for the clothes of ANYONE who could remotely be called an "angel" would be in Daniel. However, the text doesn't use the Hebrew word for "angel" ("mal'akh") and calls him a "man." Furthermore, it is a VISION of a GLOWING man.

Of the 18 occurrences in the NT, most are about the burial of Yeshua` who was wrapped in linen. One time, it was about how the rich man was dressed in Yeshua`s parable about the rich man and Lazarus. In Revelation, some of the occurrences are about the merchandise of Babylon. ONLY in the book of Revelation might it refer to "angels" as you mean the word, that is, "supernatural beings." So, when you said, 

"Angels are seen in scripture wearing , white, fine linen etc."

you were being a bit misleading.

HOWEVER, you need to have some additional information about these "angels" that is NOT common knowledge.

Revelation 21:9 (KJV)

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying,

"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."

Revelation 22:8-9 (KJV)

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me,

"See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."

The Greek is very telling, and most translations miss the point. What clued me to this is how the English would be expanded: "I am thy fellowservant, and (I am) of thy brethren the prophets, and (I am) of them which keep the sayings of this book."

Here's the Greek:

9 Kai legei moi,

“Oora mee! Sundoulos sou eimi kai toon adelfoon sou toon profeetoon kai toon teerountoon tous logous tou bibliou toutou; too Theoo proskuneeson.”

"Do-that not! A fellow-slave of-you I-am and with-the brothers of-you the prophets and with-the keepers of-the words of-the book this-one; the God worship."

This "angel" is one of Yochanan's ("John's") brothers the PROPHETS! And, he is also "with the guardians of the words of this book," the Bible! He is a messenger (Greek: aggelos) from God, but he was HUMAN!

NOW, we can talk about Rev. 19:8.

Revelation 19:7-8 (KJV)

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

While the first part sounds like the "wife of the Lamb" is being "arrayed in fine linen," the truth is that this, too, is a METAPHOR! The "fine linen" is the RIGHEOUSNESS of the holy ones, not actual fine linen!

Point 1: When I said, "You've obviously never studied the sheer size and beauty of the New Jerusalem," it's not a matter of opinions and conclusions. It's a matter of what the Scriptures say! The text of Scripture, particularly as worded in the Greek for the NT (Hebrew for the OT), is our YARDSTICK! It's our set of ABSOLUTES that shall never change, regardless what opinions and conclusions say.

Point 2: Sure, there are a multitude of contextual clues that give us the ability to state with confidence that the New Jerusalem shall LAND upon the New Earth. Let's start with a few basic ones:

Revelation 21:13 (KJV)

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

Thus, the city is aligned with true north. To do that effectively, the city CANNOT be a satellite that would SPIN in the freefall of its orbit by the sheer physics of its revolution. People often do not understand what constitutes an "orbit." They think it "hovers" in space. It's actually more like Abbott and Costello's routine:

Costello: I'm so frustrated! I'm so frustrated!
Abbott: Why? What's wrong?
Costello: Yesterday, I was so frustrated that I threw myself to the ground!
Abbott: What happened?
Costello: I MISSED it!

A satellite in orbit is constantly falling to the ground, but by the time it gets there, it's going so fast that it actually MISSES the ground! It goes beyond the curvature of the earth! It's actually TRAPPED in freefall! An object in freefall is always rotating about one or more axes, sometimes all three!

Here's another clue, actually two clues:

Revelation 21:24-26 (KJV)

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

The gates won't be shut at all! "There shall be no night there" means that it will always be daytime. That's possible with God's light emanating from the Lamb all the time. If the gates are only shut at night, then the gates shall always stand open! That means that the New Earth's atmosphere, the New Sky, will be free to flow into and out of the first floor of the city. If the city were in orbit, the air necessary for the plants (e.g., the Tree of Life) within the city would be free to escape, causing the plantlife to die.

The kings of the earth shall also bring their glory and honor into the city. They, too, will need the oxygen in the atmosphere. Therefore, the city shall land.

Revelation 21:14 (KJV)

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Another obvious clue is that there are twelve FOUNDATIONS to the wall of the city. I rather believe that eleven of them are other levels to the city, but one would think that at least the first foundation would be doing what foundations do! It anchors the city to the ground!

As for your picture above, you're forgetting a key ingredient. Ask yourself, what constitutes "LEVEL GROUND?" The base of the city, whether it be a "cube" or a "pyramid," must follow the sphere of the earth to be "level!" That's what I mean when I say that the cube doesn't work! Either the top is measurably too long (greater than 12,000 furlongs because its shape is more like a curved trapezoid) OR the top would be topocentrically too short (keeping it a true cube from space, the top would be less than 12,000 furlongs from the viewpoint of the ground)! Remember: There's almost a 20-DEGREE difference in "down" from one side of the city to the other!

Finally, if you believe as I do, the people who are resurrected and transformed are here on this earth during the Millennium helping with the governing of affairs. Don't forget Revelation 20:

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

And remember Yeshua` parable:

Luke 19:11-27 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. 17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. 20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. 22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? 24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. 25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) 26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

So, being here on earth, we won't be in the New Jerusalem as it lands!

Hi Retro, 

Gotta say there is some distraction in your answer. There is nothing misleading about quoting scriptures that explain themselves when compared to scriptures. One says that it IS the bride/ wife, the other says it is a city adorned LIKE a bride. Pretty simple. Identifying the bride/wife was the topic, not meanings and metaphors. Yes, angels ARE seen in white, and we "shall be like unto the angels". Will Jesus be married to a city, or is there validity in a scenario where a cup is offered in betrothal? Remember that Jesus said He was going "to prepare a place for........." Yeah, He is preparing a beautiful place.

Now on NJ-landing. You seem to admit that there is NO scripture that declares that it does. The compass directions are cited. But mere men have no trouble keeping their space shuttle aligned in the same orientation, without spinning. I actually have considered this "Jerusalem which is above" (Gal.4) and examined how it could work. Not out of the question at all.

And my point about the picture is that the pyramid has the SAME problem as the cube. Nothing to do with degrees. You were making points that weren't in the discussion.

Also, it is interesting that the earth, which is also in space, doesn't lose all is air escaping to make plant life die! Yet the city seems to be sealed in containment except for the gates while the entire planet is not.

Finally there is no reason that God's example WON'T be the same in the future as it is now. Ruling ON earth FROM above. Even earthly monarchs have done this across vast distances. So shall we be ever be WITH the Lord. And "where I am, THERE shall my servant be."

 

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Retro, 

Gotta say there is some distraction in your answer. There is nothing misleading about quoting scriptures that explain themselves when compared to scriptures. One says that it IS the bride/ wife, the other says it is a city adorned LIKE a bride. Pretty simple. Identifying the bride/wife was the topic, not meanings and metaphors. Yes, angels ARE seen in white, and we "shall be like unto the angels". Will Jesus be married to a city, or is there validity in a scenario where a cup is offered in betrothal? Remember that Jesus said He was going "to prepare a place for........." Yeah, He is preparing a beautiful place.

Now on NJ-landing. You seem to admit that there is NO scripture that declares that it does. The compass directions are cited. But mere men have no trouble keeping their space shuttle aligned in the same orientation, without spinning. I actually have considered this "Jerusalem which is above" (Gal.4) and examined how it could work. Not out of the question at all.

And my point about the picture is that the pyramid has the SAME problem as the cube. Nothing to do with degrees. You were making points that weren't in the discussion.

Also, it is interesting that the earth, which is also in space, doesn't lose all is air escaping to make plant life die! Yet the city seems to be sealed in containment except for the gates while the entire planet is not.

Finally there is no reason that God's example WON'T be the same in the future as it is now. Ruling ON earth FROM above. Even earthly monarchs have done this across vast distances. So shall we be ever be WITH the Lord. And "where I am, THERE shall my servant be."

 

Shalom, Uriah.

Not much time, for now, I'll just say this:

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

It's not the reverse! We don't go to be with Him; HE comes to be with US!

That which is "level ground" in Florida is the same as that which is "level ground" in Wisconsin, despite the curvature of the earth! THINK ABOUT IT!

Edited November 27, 2018 by Retrobyter

[Uriah]

You do realize, hopefully, that I simply quoted the scriptures, right?  I made no inference to any particular direction. So it looks like you are against a point I never made.

As the picture suggests, no matter where on Earth the center of the base is it would require 70 miles in depth of excavation for the edges to meet the ground.

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Uriah said:

You do realize, hopefully, that I simply quoted the scriptures, right?  I made no inference to any particular direction. So it looks like you are against a point I never made.

As the picture suggests, no matter where on Earth the center of the base is it would require 70 miles in depth of excavation for the edges to meet the ground.

Shalom, Uriah.

Nonsense. No "excavation" is necessary. Look, let's use the map you showed:

Look at Thessalonika, Greece in the upper left corner. Think of a wall built from Thessalonika (yes, it's the same Thessalonika for which Paul wrote the book to the Thessalonians) to Baku, Azerbalian, on the Caspian Sea. How would that wall look on that globe you showed? Now, build a wall from Baku to the middle of the border between Yemen and Saudi Arabia. That wall, too, would be curved on the surface of the globe. Continue the wall back to the west into the Sudan (forget water barriers). That wall would be a curved line on the surface of the globe, as well. Finally, build the wall back to Thessalonika. That wall, too, would be curved on the globe. HOWEVER, all of these walls are built on flat ground! The "cube" that you display on the globe, would actually look like a huge ball curving upward toward the walls, seventy miles into the air!

It's a matter of PERSPECTIVE and it's relative to the viewer! If you could see it from space, you would see the "cube" contacting the globe of the Earth in a single point, but from the surface of the Earth, the "cube" that you show in yellow is the object that is curved!

That's why the "cube" DOESN'T WORK!!! It's base would be CURVED along the surface of the ball! So, what happens to the top? Does it curve with the base OR ... what?

 

Does the top of the "cube" start and end at right angles to the point where the wall's base ends (in which case the cross section of the "cube" would look like a trapezoid with top and bottom bases curved)? OR do we keep the walls parallel to each other (in which case all the walls would appear to slant toward the center of the city at 10 degrees)? If we keep the walls parallel to each other, the top would be SHORTER than the mileage at the base! If the base and the top are curved such that the walls are at 90 degrees to the surface of the earth at that point on its surface, then the top when measured would be LONGER than the mileage at the Earth's surface!

 

Now, consider the pyramid: Its base, too, would be curved along the surface of the Earth following its spherical shape. Just the same, from the perspective of someone on the surface, the "floor" of the pyramid would appear "flat!"

Here's what it would look like:

(Disclaimer: This was back when I thought the 12,000 "furlongs" was 1,500 miles. I now believe that they were the Roman stadia which would make the distance 1,379.868687 miles.)

Here's another view:

 

Do you see NOW what I'm talking about?

 

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Retrobyter

[Uriah]

Nah, I don't go for the pyramid scheme. (eye of providence) The 70 mile high 13th "foundation" (only at its farthest reaches you now added still merely makes it only touch the ground in the very middle, continuing to obliterate Israel and other countries by keeping them in total darkness. And the "lines" are wrong anyway. Last year when you posted this stuff it should have been clear.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Uriah