Israel in Prophesy (still future vs 1948)

[abcdef]

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

And no you cannot spiritualize the stars falling as meaning Israel. Or the sun and moon as being something else.

Gen 15:5, 22:17, 26:4, 37:9, Ex 32 :13, Deut 1:10.

 

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

that is where the rest of the bible comes in handy.

The rest of the Bible defines the meaning of the symbols. They are basically the same symbolic meanings in the OT and the letters of the NT writers.

The Revelation takes the symbolism to a higher level that can only be understood by those who have studied the OT symbolism.

 

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

Nor can you claim the great tribulation spoken of happened. We are giver the exact time that will last.  That cannot be any old tribulation.

Even the literal events shown in the Bible have deeper symbolic meanings, such as the lamb sacrifices and the blood.

When we take the literal events shown and miss the symbolism behind them, we are missing the deeper meaning behind them, the spiritual side. 

The spiritual side of the sun and moon being darkened, is there is less of God's light and blessings on His people Israel, Israel, and not the planet. The symbols themselves are not intended subject, but what the symbols REPRESENT that are the intended subject. The symbols themselves are not the literal objects.

1 Cor 2:14, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

That is we must look at the spiritual implications of the text, not just the literal. 

 

 

 

[dad2]

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

I have referenced from Matt 24, Mk 13, and Luke 21, all parallel passages. Dan 2 and 7. 

All are showing the time before, during, and after the 70 AD destruction and scattering.
 

 

The tribulation lasts 3 1/2 years. It could not be what started in 70AD

 

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The persecution of the 4 apostles, the sign of the coming destruction by the Roman armies which was the worship of Caesar inserted into the temple, and the time after the destruction until the promised restoration of the people of Israel to control of Jerusalem is referred to in the passages from the gospels.

 

Matt 24:21, The great trouble/trib was from 70 AD until 1967 (3 1/2 times). But there was a time of trouble leading up to the scattering into the gentile nations before 70 AD. 
 

2000 years is 3 1/2 times? There was no restoration because that comes after they repent and the vengeance of God. When God restores it all their enemies will have been utterly crushed. They will have repented. The Tribulation will be over. The 3 1/2 years is given to us in Rev and Dan in days and months so there can be no mistake.

 

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The 3 1/2 times is not 3 1/2 years. It is 70 AD until 1967. The 3 1/2 times is a symbolic image of a time that lasts centuries, during most of the time of the iron in the statue of Dan.2.

The 7 times are the same time period as shown in the statue in Dan. 2, not 7 years. Babylon until the restoration of Jerusalem in 1967.

Except you made that up and it is against Scripture. The length of the Tribulation after the abomination is set up in known. In days, in months, in years.

 

 

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You see, the Matt 24, Mk 13, and Lk 21 passages are primarily centered on the 70 AD destruction, and the one that we should be centered on, in our time, is the one shown in the end of the 2 witnesses, the 6-7th trumpet, the 6-7th vial, and the Rev 20 fire from heaven. These are the ones that show the destruction that will happen in our time, they are not the 70 AD fall and should not be applied to the coming one.

 

No, they are about the days Jesus just spoke about, and therefore cannot be history.

[dad2]

1 hour ago, abcdef said:

Gen 15:5, 22:17, 26:4, 37:9, Ex 32 :13, Deut 1:10.

 

The rest of the Bible defines the meaning of the symbols. They are basically the same symbolic meanings in the OT and the letters of the NT writers.

The Revelation takes the symbolism to a higher level that can only be understood by those who have studied the OT symbolism.

 

Even the literal events shown in the Bible have deeper symbolic meanings, such as the lamb sacrifices and the blood.

When we take the literal events shown and miss the symbolism behind them, we are missing the deeper meaning behind them, the spiritual side. 

The spiritual side of the sun and moon being darkened, is there is less of God's light and blessings on His people Israel, Israel, and not the planet. The symbols themselves are not intended subject, but what the symbols REPRESENT that are the intended subject. The symbols themselves are not the literal objects.

1 Cor 2:14, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

That is we must look at the spiritual implications of the text, not just the literal.

 

 

Your verses are out of context. Example

Exodus 32:13

 

Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven.

 

 

That is a clear comparison to explain a great number. That is not saying you are a star!

 

 When it talks of stars and sun going dark and the moon not shining, or a day being a third less light than normal, that is about real heavenly objects. As Jesus said, 'let Him that hears understand' Not sure why you cannot hear.

Edited August 14, 2021 by dad2

[abcdef]

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

The tribulation lasts 3 1/2 years. It could not be what started in 70AD

Not 3 1/2 years, 3 1/2 TIMES, which is a symbolic image of the 70 AD - 1967 time period.

The 7 times are the exact same time period as the statue of the gentile nations in Dan. 2. The time is showing how long it will be until the people of Israel are restored to control of Jerusalem, Babylon until the iron ends. (1967)

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The spans of the two 3 1/2 times, which makes 7 times is determined by Dan. 2:7.

The angel states that it will be 3 1/2 times from the captivity in Babylon until the scattering of the power of Israel, which happened in 70 AD, the great scattering of Israel into the gentile nations. This was roughly 656 years in the future of the angel's prophecy in Babylon. So the first part of the 7 times, the first 3 1/2 times, was from Babylon until 70 AD, to fulfill the prophecy.

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The second 3 1/2 times is from 70 AD until 1967, 1897 years until Jerusalem is restored. (1967)

 The two time periods are not the same length. The Revelation is centered on the second 3 1/2 times and by using the "months" and "days", the idea that they are referring to a time period of the same length. This would be the second 3 1/2 times.

The time of the 2 witnesses in sackcloth until they are restored to Jerusalem and the time of the woman in the wilderness of the gentile nations in Rev 12 are both speaking of the second 3 1/2 times, 70 AD - 1967.

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The time of the statue in Dan. 2 is centuries. The 7 times is centuries, not 7 years or 3 1/2 years. 

The numbers are symbolic images of a time this is not specific to men until after the prophecy is fulfilled. Which the 7 times are now history since 1967.

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

2000 years is 3 1/2 times?

1,897 years approx.

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

There was no restoration because that comes after they repent and the vengeance of God. When God restores it all their enemies will have been utterly crushed.

This has happened since 1945 until now, not future, right now.

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

They will have repented. The Tribulation will be over.

Right now. The tribulation ended in 1967. The have been restored for 54 years.

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

The 3 1/2 years is given to us in Rev and Dan in days and months so there can be no mistake.

It doesn't say 3 1/2 years, it says 3 1/2 times, which is a symbolic image number that describes the ruling time of the gentile nations over the people of Israel and Jerusalem. In the case of the second 3 1/2 times it mainly concerned with rule of Rome, the iron in the statue.

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

Except you made that up and it is against Scripture.

It's confirmed by the timeframe of the angel in Dan. 12:7 concerning the length of the time before the great scattering of Israel.

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

The length of the Tribulation after the abomination is set up in known. In days, in months, in years.

The AoD is 70 AD history, confirmed by the fact that the iron of the Dan. 2 statue is Rome and lasts until Jerusalem was restored in 1967.

 

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

No, they are about the days Jesus just spoke about, and therefore cannot be history.

Jesus in Lk 21:20-24, was speaking directly to 4 of His apostles. They saw the prophecies that were made about them come true in their lifetimes (John).

They were 35 years in the future to them, but are 1900+ history to us.

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Lk 21:24, states that they will fall by the sword. They don't use swords anymore, now they have guns.

If you say that the swords are literal, then that can only prove that LK is describing the 70 AD destruction and not a future one. (Like the fall of Jerusalem that we are facing now, the 7th trumpet one)

 

[abcdef]

16 hours ago, dad2 said:

Your verses are out of context. Example

Exodus 32:13

 

Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven.

 

That is a clear comparison to explain a great number. That is not saying you are a star!

 

 When it talks of stars and sun going dark and the moon not shining, or a day being a third less light than normal, that is about real heavenly objects. As Jesus said, 'let Him that hears understand' Not sure why you cannot hear.

Gen 37:5-11, 9, "And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold I have dreamed a dream more, and, behold the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."

Here clearly the sun and moon are Joseph's mother and father, and the stars are the children of Jacob/Israel.

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These images are maintained almost standard throughout the Bible. The Revelation images of the stars falling are talking about the children of Israel and are not literal suns, galaxies, or planets.

That is how the symbols in the Revelation are fulfilled already. 

The symbols themselves are not necessarily the intended subject, it's what the symbols REPRESENT that are the intended subject. 

[dad2]

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Not 3 1/2 years, 3 1/2 TIMES, which is a symbolic image of the 70 AD - 1967 time period.

The 7 times are the exact same time period as the statue of the gentile nations in Dan. 2. The time is showing how long it will be until the people of Israel are restored to control of Jerusalem, Babylon until the iron ends. (1967)

 

 

What does 2000 years have to do with 3 1/2 times (which is explained as also being 1260 days or  42 months?

 

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The spans of the two 3 1/2 times, which makes 7 times is determined by Dan. 2:7.

 

Daniel 2:7

 

They answered again and said, Let the king tell his servants the dream, and we will shew the interpretation of it.

 

That has nothing to do with anything we are talking about. That is a king telling his servants some things.

 

The angel states that it will be 3 1/2 times from the captivity in Babylon until the scattering of the power of Israel

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The angel states that it will be 3 1/2 times from the captivity in Babylon until the scattering of the power of Israel

 

I saw nothing in Dan 2 about that? Which angel?

 

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The second 3 1/2 times is from 70 AD until 1967, 1897 years until Jerusalem is restored. (1967)

 The two time periods are not the same length. The Revelation is centered on the second 3 1/2 times and by using the "months" and "days", the idea that they are referring to a time period of the same length. This would be the second 3 1/2 times.

 

That is truly wholly made up, and total speculation. No wonder you 'forgot' to cite which verse an angel said what you claim.

 

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The time of the 2 witnesses in sackcloth until they are restored to Jerusalem and the time of the woman in the wilderness of the gentile nations in Rev 12 are both speaking of the second 3 1/2 times, 70 AD - 1967.

 

So now you think the two witnesses that called down fire and withheld the rain and died in the streets of Jerusalem and were raised from the dead was something that ended in 1967?  

 

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The time of the statue in Dan. 2 is centuries. The 7 times is centuries, not 7 years or 3 1/2 years. 

Who said that all the main kingdoms of the world rising and falling involved 7 years? That is ridiculous and a strawman argument.

 

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This has happened since 1945 until now, not future, right now.

So now you toss in 1945 for no apparent reason, and claim the witnesses were here. Not sure how we all could have missed them!

 

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Right now. The tribulation ended in 1967. The have been restored for 54 years.

NOT the great tribulation. That ends when Jesus returns to earth. It also involves a certain number of days and things that are impossible to have already happened anytime before.

 

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It doesn't say 3 1/2 years, it says 3 1/2 times, which is a symbolic image number that describes the ruling time of the gentile nations over the people of Israel and Jerusalem. In the case of the second 3 1/2 times it mainly concerned with rule of Rome, the iron in the statue.

What chapter are you even talking about now? The bible does say in a few places how long the Tribulation is.

Daniel 12:11

 

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

 

Revelation 11:2

 

But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

 

Revelation 13:5

 

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

 

 

3 hours ago, abcdef said:

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It's confirmed by the timeframe of the angel in Dan. 12:7 concerning the length of the time before the great scattering of Israel.

False. The angel there is talking about the end of the world.

 

Daniel 12:1

 

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12:2

 

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:3

 

And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Daniel 12:4

 

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:5

 

Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

Daniel 12:6

 

And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

Daniel 12:7

 

And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Daniel 12:8

 

And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

Daniel 12:9

 

And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

 

 

The angel is talking about that well known time that has no parallel as Jesus mentioned, nothing in history is like the Tribulation. You can't say that it already happened! Then we see it is when people rise from the dead, did that happen in 70AD? No possible way. Then we see that when His people are scattered that is the end of all things, so it could not have been any of the times Christians or Jews were scattered in history.

 

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If you say that the swords are literal, then that can only prove that LK is describing the 70 AD destruction and not a future one. (Like the fall of Jerusalem that we are facing now, the 7th trumpet one)

False. It is possible that if there is a time of great war that people may not be able to use or make modern weapons. Horses and swords will likely be used I would suspect! There is nothing in the bible that says they won't.

Edited August 15, 2021 by dad2

[dad2]

7 hours ago, abcdef said:

Gen 37:5-11, 9, "And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold I have dreamed a dream more, and, behold the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."

Here clearly the sun and moon are Joseph's mother and father, and the stars are the children of Jacob/Israel.

--

These images are maintained almost standard throughout the Bible. The Revelation images of the stars falling are talking about the children of Israel and are not literal suns, galaxies, or planets.

That is how the symbols in the Revelation are fulfilled already. 

The symbols themselves are not necessarily the intended subject, it's what the symbols REPRESENT that are the intended subject. 

When we get specific like a day will be one third less daylight, that is not talking about a person. In Joseph's case it was a dream and not in any way literal. In the case of God telling us in different places that the stars will go dark, and the sun, that is no dream. You simply can't believe it. The intended subject is the moon and stars and sun, and not people in all these prophesies.

[Justin Adams]

1 hour ago, dad2 said:

In Joseph's case it was a dream and not in any way literal.

And what does literal mean? In Joseph's case it became quite "literal" regarding his brothers and family. That was the intent of the dreams.

Few seem to understand the smoke and mirrors of prophesy. Or the hyperbole and overstatements to form a picture. A picture that is real. Prophet speak needs to be well understood or the allegory is deemed untrue in many cases and folk wait eternally for something to happen - that never will happen as spoken.

Just read between the lines where the Lord often dwells.

Read Ezekiel to get the message well.

[dad2]

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And what does literal mean? In Joseph's case it became quite "literal" regarding his brothers and family. That was the intent of the dreams.

 

 

His brothers and the prophesy was literal you can say. However his brother was not literally the sun. Context. When God talks about the actual sun and moon and stars themselves and how they will all do certain things one day, that is a sign of what we will see. That is not about some pope, or beggar or anyone else.

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Few seem to understand the smoke and mirrors of prophesy.

 

 

Wisdom is plain to him that understandeth actually. The spirit reveals all things. Unto us it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom. We also should know the signs of the times and what time we are in.

 

 

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Or the hyperbole and overstatements to form a picture. A picture that is real. Prophet speak needs to be well understood or the allegory is deemed untrue in many cases and folk wait eternally for something to happen - that never will happen as spoken.

 

 

The prophesies are more importantly to be believed. When we hear that a great shaking (talked about in many places in the bible) is going to happen in the end time, so that every island is moved away from where it was, we are not to pretend that means the pope will pass gas or something. When we see a prophesy say that all men will need a mark to buy or sell anything, that does not mean the arch Bishop's car will get a flat. When we see prophesies that a horrible abomination will one day be set up after the daily sacrifices are taken away, and there will then be only 42 months left till the end, that does not mean that it won't really happen and we can pretend that it is whatever made up events we like over a span of a few thousand years. Nor does it mean that the daily animal sacrifices are really Mickey Mouse movies. When it says a day will not shine for a third part, that means the length of a day will not be the same, it does not mean someone is mad at his cousin. Etc.

 

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Just read between the lines where the Lord often dwells.

Read Ezekiel to get the message well.

 

 

Better to believe the lines we do read and be careful for the one that tries to obfuscate and cause disbelief. When Isaiah says Damascus will be destroyed in a certain end time, that does not mean if we really want to get it well, we should think he 'really' meant that that there will be a pride parade in New York.

Looking at Eze, it starts like this

Ezekiel 1:1

 

Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

 

That is talking about an actual day of the month in a certain time. That is talking about a certain river, and actual people that were captives. It is also talking about the actual heavens being opened and him seeing a vision from God. You can't say that because a woman had 12 stars over her head in Revelation, that this 'really' means that a woman's head was opened up or something!

Edited August 15, 2021 by dad2

[Justin Adams]

8 minutes ago, dad2 said:

You can't say that because a woman had 12 stars over her head

One day perhaps some might understand...