Why Resurrection?

[Resurrection Priest]

8 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Then Elijah did die. He no longer had the body of flesh and blood. The same holds true of Moses. Yet you said Moses wasn't dead. 

Jesus no longer had a body of "flesh and blood."  Yet He was alive.  He was alive in His "spiritual body."  

[Resurrection Priest]

10 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Then Elijah did die.

Bible doesn't say that Elijah died.  Any more than the saints who are still living when Christ returns in glory will have to "die" before their bodies are "changed in a moment" to the new "spiritual body" (without flesh and blood).

[Resurrection Priest]

15 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Logically, arguments made from the exceptions to the rule are fallacious. The idea that we can measure anything by Elijah, who is by definition an outlier to the normal way things work, is irrational. Hebrews states quite plainly it is apportioned to man to die once and then face judgment. Elijah did not die the normal death but if he was a man then he too was apportioned to die. Remember what I said early on: we must be consistent with the position Jesus is the resurrection and no one comes to the Father but by him so life, death, and resurrection is the process by which we live incorruptibly and immortally. Remember also the word "death" or "dead" is used diversely in scripture; not all deaths are physical death.  You've argued Paradise was an intermediate place and done so based on a single parable and further argued the separateness of the living and dead realms. 

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 

The argument in context is that once was enough, for a human life, and for Christ - to die once.  No reincarnation.   No repeating the ONE True Sacrifice for all time. 

The usual is that human beings die (physically) only once.  

There are exceptions noted in the Bible: Lazarus, Eutychus (Acts 20) the young girl of Mark 5:41, and others.  They were not judged when they were raised to continue their physical lives.  Neither were they transformed into the "spiritual body."  

And some will still be living - all the way to the Glorious Return.  They won't have to die first, before being "caught up" to be with the LORD.  (1Thess 4:14-16)

So why not Elijah also.  

 

[Resurrection Priest]

Good bye Josheb.  I can't participate in a "discussion" when someone is scolding me and talking down to me every other post.  

[Your closest friendnt]

6 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Lazarus, Eutychus and Mark's young girl are not the same phenomenon as Elijah. This is a false equivalence and it does not to change the fact Elijah and Moses could in fact speak to the living here on earth. Either Jesus was mistaken or lying when he said there was a chasm separating the rich man and Lazarus or the parable was a fictitious story designed to prove a point and not a factual narrative on the factual nature of life and death. Moses died. He died and was buried, and yet there he was visible to all in attendance to talk to Jesus before Jesus had risen from the grave. Before the thief was with Jesus. Elijah was taken away but if he had a spiritual body then his body of flesh and blood was gone, no longer existent and he too was there for all to see across the divide prior to Calvary and Jesus leaving the tomb. And all of this because of some disagreement with the statement, "Jesus told the repentant thief he'd be with Jesus in Paradise that day. We can't find Jesus' body in Jesus' tomb but I bet we'd find a decayed body of flesh and blood in the the thief's grave." We both agree the thief was saved.

 

Eight pages later and the point I was making hasn't been disproven. 

The thief was saved from his sins when Jesus forgave his sins while still on the Cross. 

It was not the first time Jesus forgave sins before the Cross  

Jesus said I have given the authority to forgive sins. 

He also said I have come to saved the lost sheep of Israel. 

The thief must have been one of the lost sheep of Israel.

When Jesus forgave someone sins as the thief on the Cross that person is now in righteousness, he is considered a righteous person. 

The Israelites when they died minus those who were cut off from the Law and the community and the Nation not being allowed to participate in the Atonement in the Law , when they died they did not go to Heaven and they did not go to the same place as the dead Gentiles. 

They were the people of God. 

When they died they were still the people of God because of righteousness. 

The Lord did not stopped being their God after they died. 

This happened the first time with Abraham and never before and ended with Jesus Christ who not only gives righteousness to those who believe in him but also he gives them Life. They are not separated from God, they are accepted by God.  

So to come back to the thief.

The thief's sins were forgiven by Jesus and he died as a righteous person.

The thief was not a Gentile, he was from on of the tribes of Israel. 

To find out where he went at his death one must understand where the righteous Israelites went when they died. 

They went to their Patriarch Jacob and Jacob had gone to Isaac and Isaac to Abraham. 

And the Lord God said to Moses: I am the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob.

He said that when they were dead long time ago...

But he said I am the God of...while still speaking to Moses..

He did not say I was the God of... while they were living only and not after they died .

 This is why we understand that God had set them apart and unto himself from the rest of the world..  

And was that place? 

Do we have anything in the scriptures to inform us?

Yes we do.

God said to Abraham that at the time of his death that he will be gathered to his ancestors. 

The Lord also told David that at his death he will be gathered to Abraham. 

David knew where he will go after death before he died and he wrote about it in the Psalms. 

So that's where the thief went because he died in righteousness but not in the Life to joint Abraham who also died in righteousness but not in the Life  .

Waiting for Jesus Christ to come to them right after his death to give them Life but not before he give them first of his righteousness because Life comes to those with the righteousness of Jesus Christ only. 

John the Baptist went there before Jesus Christ to proclaim his coming...

And Lasarus at his death went there and he must have said a lot of things about Jesus Christ to put them on the alarm that their Lord as the Christ the Messiah of God did not forget them and he will come to them but he must die first to offer himself as a sacrifice for sin for them and the whole world .

Amen 

 

***everything is from scripture, the one who asks will receive  

[suzan344]

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

Have you got any scripture to support any of this? 

Which part?  Jesus is quoted as saying the soul sleeps until final judgement.

The information about shoal and paradise is still taught by Jews, but not western evangelicals.

Everything else is my opinion and comes from wisdom I have received directly from God.

 

[suzan344]

11 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Do you believe that only the martyrs will be resurrected at the Glorious Return of Christ?  Are they the only ones who will become "priests of God and of Christ" - in your view? 

My view follows:

Rev. 11:15-19 describes what happens in heaven at the 7th (last) Trumpet. 

 Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." 

This looks like ALL those (from those still dead) who fear the LORD, receive their reward at this time.  The reward/gift is eternal life.  

2 Timothy 4:8 [Paul speaking] "Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day-- and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing." (NIV)

Looks like everyone (raised or translated) is awarded the crown of righteousness on the same day.

    Daniel 12:1-3  “There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.  But at that time your people – everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.  Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” NIV 

John 14:3  “I will come again and receive you unto myself.”    
    2 Thessalonians 2:1  We are “gathered together to Him” 
                    at “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (1Th 4:16 NKJ)

Sounds like ALL those who are "in Christ" will be raised when He comes again - in glory.  

I'm all for the martyrs receiving thrones and reward.  I just believe that all the dead "in Christ" will be raised at His Glorious Return.

IMO

 

Rev. 11:15-19 is still just referencing the 144,00, in my view.

It says to me "judge the dead" as in judge the martyrs and find them worthy to rule the nations on thrones given to them by God, in Jesus's name (ie. Rev. 20:4 declares this).

[Resurrection Priest]

 EXCEPTIONS

       Enoch and Elijah were granted exceptions to the “die once,” then judgment rule (Heb. 11:5, 2Ki. 2:11).  They were taken to Heaven without dying first, just as those who are still alive to see Christ come will not have to die first, before they are “caught up” to the clouds to meet Him in the air (1Thes. 4:17).  

We know that all those who hear Christ's word and believe in the Father who sent Him, have everlasting life.  They will “not come into judgment” either (John 5:24).  They are granted an exception through Christ, to the appointed "die once, then judgment."

There are many examples of exceptions in the Scriptures.  Caleb, Joshua and Eleazar the High Priest, did not die in the wilderness with the rest of the 20 and over.  

Aaron was forgiven, though he actually created the golden calf idol.  Moses pleaded for him, and the LORD forgave Him.   

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

 EXCEPTIONS

       Enoch and Elijah were granted exceptions to the “die once,” then judgment rule (Heb. 11:5, 2Ki. 2:11).  They were taken to Heaven without dying first, just as those who are still alive to see Christ come will not have to die first, before they are “caught up” to the clouds to meet Him in the air (1Thes. 4:17).  

We know that all those who hear Christ's word and believe in the Father who sent Him, have everlasting life.  They will “not come into judgment” either (John 5:24).  They are granted an exception through Christ, to the appointed "die once, then judgment."

There are many examples of exceptions in the Scriptures.  Caleb, Joshua and Eleazar the High Priest, did not die in the wilderness with the rest of the 20 and over.  

Aaron was forgiven, though he actually created the golden calf idol.  Moses pleaded for him, and the LORD forgave Him.   

RP, I have been assigned to you for a very special reason. 

You do not have context to your statements about Enoch and Elijah. 

That's why you are confusing the situation and bring into the picture Hebrews 11:5. 

Hebrews 11:5 does not apply to Enoch and to Elijah. We must also make the distinction between Enoch and Elijah. Elijah was a child of the Sina Covenant. Enoch was before the flood.

I keep something in mind and this is what it is. 

When I make a statement like that I keep in mind that I have to show cause why I said Hebrews 11:5  it does not apply.

What facts have I consider in other words context and I believe make me confident to make such a bold statement.

Thus forming a strong conviction that I am ready to give an account to justify my statement that Hebrews it does not apply to support your statement that E and E are exemptions to Hebrews 11:5. 

Enoch and Elijah are indeed exceptions but to what? If they are not exceptions to Hebrews 11:5 then to what they are exception to? 

That's what I am going to do.

I am going to do what you failed to do. And I am not saying that to disrespect you, but rather to built you up. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

@Resurrection Priest

Within the Context of Elijah, we need to understand what would have happened to Elijah if God did not take him and he let him die. 

That's what I am thinking "how can we find that out".

At the time of Elijah the world was divided in two.

The Israelites the people of God and the rest of the world the "Gentiles" the people rejected from God and we also have Esau the other son of Isaac and all the other children of Abraham who were born to him before or after Issac which were excluded for the special blessing which was upon Abraham to Issac the only Son of Sarah and from Issac to Jacob but not to Esau.  Even though Esau was from the same wife of Jacob the older tween of Jacob.

And from Jacob to all his house.

We are on the quest to find out what would have happened to Elijah if God let him die, like Abraham Isaac and Jacob and his descendants. 

Or what was the Inheritance of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and all his house after death. 

As we said before God set apart Abraham and his seed after him from the rest of the world we are working on that at the same time. 

We look into that till Jesus Christ death on the Cross. 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Your closest friendnt