God Says No to Magic, Paganism, and the Occult

[David1701]

47 minutes ago, Alive said:

These things manifest in various ways and at times can be very alluring.

I have seen brothers and sisters seduced rather easily.

Always---we should all seek a closenes to the Lord and not quench His Spirit when He is dealing with us. Your best exercise is when the Lord touches something in you---say yes, Lord. You are my God, I died and you are my Life. Its in this way over time, that we learn to discern and when the birds of the air attempt to land in the branches of our mind, we are able to swat them away. We learn to recognize thw wrongness of the birds of the air.

I find this a good analogy....having said these things, which are practical---the Lord is our protection and His Word our weapon.

Read the bible--a lot. Make it your daily bread.

Yes indeed! 

Without knowing anything about the occult, apart from what the Bible tells us; and with much Bible reading,  prayer and praise, you can tell what is true and what is false, in fellowship with the Lord, relying upon him.

Walking in step with the Holy Spirit is also very important, trusting in the Lord who shed his blood and died for us, on the cross.

Ephesians 6 is an excellent chapter to study and ponder, in our fight against the darkness - the panoply of God.

[Starise]

19 hours ago, David1701 said:

I'm one of those who has had to deal with some of these things (it's part of my calling); but, I would absolutely not recommend anyone to start dealing with occultism, unless the Lord definitely calls you to it.

I agree and would only add that we shouldn't do anything unless the Lord calls us into it. Not sure what level of involvement you imply by "dealing" with occultism. I think we mostly come across it, or at least I have. It's a part of the biblical narrative on the bad guys. I see it as better to be informed if faced with it than to know nothing about it and have to play catch up when or if something happens. What could possibly happen some say? How about missing persons for a start. What if you are related to said persons? How about family involved in it? I think we need to know what to pray for or against. How about representations of it in certain churches as has been mentioned here already? Do we want to put on the blinders and be naive about all of that? I think God calls ALL of us to be diligent and vigilant. Vigilance demands study. Study informs us. Being informed is always helpful.

18 hours ago, Kelly2363 said:

I said on here several weeks ago that some brethren simply have no idea what the real meaning of the occult is. I was told that I was being difficult. Yet these brethren never were occultist and certainly were not establishing an occult order at the time they were saved. What I intended is missing from your list - but it is implicit in every single part thereof. Rather than always trying to understand demonic unclean spirits and even Satan himself - or the occult in that semblance of meaning -we should first get a grip of the only element that God asks us to really understand - the flesh. 

I think I might have been one of the persons you are referring to. You are more than welcome to the crown of occult expert. That discussion was not centered around what someone knew but rather poked at what was assumed someone else didn't know. i.e. myself. I did take offense to that because it is an unfounded statement.

I would not want the level of involvement you had although I'm sure it might be  useful at some point. I believe that level of involvement isn't something that's necessary to know about the general practices which in a nutshell is the worship of false gods and entities and basically the opposite of what the bible teaches us. Lets just say it , demons and fallen angels. These are the culprits.

The only element God asks us to understand is the flesh? Where is your biblical foundation for that one? 2 Tim 3:16,17 NIV 

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

While I don't believe it's helpful to want to know any more than is necessary about these things. We should know about them in order to be complete students of the word. How were these practices typified most of the time in the bible? When a nation follows the Lord the evil goes underground. One word SECRECY. The practices engaged in are evil and by default illegal and predatory.

If you were REALLY into the occult in a deep way, then you participated and/or are well aware of this.

[Kelly2363]

8 minutes ago, Starise said:

18 hours ago, Kelly2363 said:

I said on here several weeks ago that some brethren simply have no idea what the real meaning of the occult is. I was told that I was being difficult. Yet these brethren never were occultist and certainly were not establishing an occult order at the time they were saved. What I intended is missing from your list - but it is implicit in every single part thereof. Rather than always trying to understand demonic unclean spirits and even Satan himself - or the occult in that semblance of meaning -we should first get a grip of the only element that God asks us to really understand - the flesh. 

I think I might have been one of the persons you are referring to. You are more than welcome to the crown of occult expert. That discussion was not centered around what someone knew but rather poked at what was assumed someone else didn't know. i.e. myself. I did take offense to that because it is an unfounded statement.

I would not want the level of involvement you had although I'm sure it might be  useful at some point. I believe that level of involvement isn't something that's necessary to know about the general practices which in a nutshell is the worship of false gods and entities and basically the opposite of what the bible teaches us. Lets just say it , demons and fallen angels. These are the culprits.

The only element God asks us to understand is the flesh? Where is your biblical foundation for that one? 2 Tim 3:16,17 NIV 

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

While I don't believe it's helpful to want to know any more than is necessary about these things. We should know about them in order to be complete students of the word. How were these practices typified most of the time in the bible? When a nation follows the Lord the evil goes underground. One word SECRECY. The practices engaged in are evil and by default illegal and predatory.

If you were REALLY into the occult in a deep way, then you participated and/or are well aware of this.

 

In the near 40 years of ministry I haven't mentioned the occult one single time in the church or even to groups and have always dealt with its meaning to individuals who have a reason to know what it is that ails them. Even then I always speak about the remedy and not the effect. People know what the effect of being scared witless is because they are scared witless. Telling them about bogey men won't make them any more courageous or give them a way of seeing why Jesus has said that we shall tread upon serpents and scorpions. Besides my definition of the occult is very different to the one being used here. 

In actual fact the direction of what occult means is cited or else implied in this OP and I have seen in numerous OP's on the forum in the last few weeks - outside of my own claim in the element of my post you have quoted. That more accurate meaning has it that men and women utilise genuine hidden powers to enrich their own lives and could be best expressed as individuals utilising the things of God (created things) to uphold and maintain an independence from God. That is the nearest equivalence to biblical insights - to the meaning of the occult and not Satan or demons of any amount of idolatry. Those things are not hidden else we wouldn't know about them. They are openly expressed biblically and those things are not the occult. They are not hidden. In actual fact one brother utilised a precept pertaining to what language was spoken on the day of pentecost just in the last 24 hours - his exclamation pointed to what pure occultism means. So I asked him to explain himself or else to have regard for what he had said seeing as he is said to have been involved in occult interests many years ago.

It doesn't matter to me what anyone thinks of my comments other than not wishing to offend brethren - but wearing a crown? Really brother!  

Show me from the bible where hidden things are hidden and I will show you from the bible where hidden things have been made known. They ceased to be hidden when they were revealed. And that much revelation is almost entirely in the New Testament. Whereas, the Old Testament that meaning is almost entirely hidden. 

The only reason I think that this matters is because things have changed in the churches and in ministries. In the past not too long ago there were any amount of ministries that addressed the occult - but were in truth talking about the activities of Satan and unclean spirits. Most of those ministries caused enormous harm because the men and occasionally the few women who ran them were boasters. Today that vulgar kind of false ministry has been replaced with an extremely sophisticated sophistry of genuine occult abilities that hardly manifests demonically at all - but transcends into believers thinking they have become gods who can deliver the church from Satan and the world by the power of God which they wield like a sorceric wand. We clearly have a different view of what the occult is. So no surprises that I say that the power of the occult is in our own flesh as per Galatians 5:20 and doesn't need a sausage from the Devil to make the dog bark. We can bark ourselves just fine. 

[Starise]

12 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

In the near 40 years of ministry I haven't mentioned the occult one single time in the church or even to groups and have always dealt with its meaning to individuals who have a reason to know what it is that ails them. Even then I always speak about the remedy and not the effect. People know what the effect of being scared witless is because they are scared witless. Telling them about bogey men won't make them any more courageous or give them a way of seeing why Jesus has said that we shall tread upon serpents and scorpions. Besides my definition of the occult is very different to the one being used here. 

And I believe this is very wise. Certain things that "ail" people need to be addressed. Most people don't begin to understand what's going on, many times looking for solutions that only make these problems worse. The last sentence of this paragraph is telling. No offense intended, but personal definitions need to be explained.

17 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

In actual fact the direction of what occult means is cited or else implied in this OP and I have seen in numerous OP's on the forum in the last few weeks - outside of my own claim in the element of my post you have quoted.

So there is disagreement here as to what it is to you compared to what it is to others if I understand you correctly. 

19 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

That more accurate meaning has it that men and women utilise genuine hidden powers to enrich their own lives and could be best expressed as individuals utilising the things of God (created things) to uphold and maintain an independence from God. That is the nearest equivalence to biblical insights - to the meaning of the occult and not Satan or demons of any amount of idolatry.

Ahh, and this is where I think we are splitting hairs over the definition. As I see it, the 'hidden' part is really more bait for the curious than it being truly secret. You tend to agree with this in your later statements it seems. It IS secret to those who are new to the ideas about it. Dangling that carrot of secrecy is exactly what draws some people into it. Hidden knowledge and secrets are simply uncovered facts that anyone can find out if they look into it enough. In contrast the gospel is free and open to all. No closed communities there. Satan and demons seem to be left out of your explanation, yet I think you would agree that in order to use created things for our benefit while still maintaining an independence from God necessarily uses Satan and demons because we as humans can't do these things ourselves. This is akin to tapping into a power that they deny they are using. This would be the height of naivete.

This is how they are drawn in. Even those who are scared of their own shadows, because they think they are tapping into a THING or a FORCE as opposed to a BEING or BEINGS. As I said if you were deep into the occult you eventually found this out.

31 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

They are openly expressed biblically and those things are not the occult. They are not hidden. In actual fact one brother utilised a precept pertaining to what language was spoken on the day of pentecost just in the last 24 hours - his exclamation pointed to what pure occultism means. So I asked him to explain himself or else to have regard for what he had said seeing as he is said to have been involved in occult interests many years ago.

Well yes there are certainly the deeper things in the occult. Those things no real Christian should ever be involved in such as learning enchantments and spells, curses, sacrifices, cutting etc. This  at the root is probably what I would call the occult in action. I don't agree with whatever that other brother was attempting to say. It IS much deeper than this in practice.

 

35 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

It doesn't matter to me what anyone thinks of my comments other than not wishing to offend brethren - but wearing a crown? Really brother!  

Well big claims and putting other brothers off as uninformed require a big delivery  I wasn't too happy when you told me I knew nothing about the occult either. Telling someone in so many words they are ignorant never goes over well does it? Especially when that person HAS looked into it in detail. I didn't give you the crown. You gave it to yourself. So I'm all ears, but don't expect me to listen silently.

39 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

Show me from the bible where hidden things are hidden and I will show you from the bible where hidden things have been made known. They ceased to be hidden when they were revealed. And that much revelation is almost entirely in the New Testament. Whereas, the Old Testament that meaning is almost entirely hidden. 

This ties in to the people who the Lord says don't "have ears to hear or eyes to see".

While you or myself might see it, others might not see it because they have not yet reached that place where the Lord reveals it to them. Some the Lord will intentionally withhold the information from because they didn't want to know it.Pearls before swine. Then there are those things none of us know yet. Some of them even Jesus is not privy to from the Father.Uh oh. Can of worms. It's in there. Trust me. Many a bible student has spent precious time digging in the word through prayer to have some of these things revealed. Some of them said "ah ha" and proceeded to tell everyone else what they found out. Funny how only a few men were blessed enough to know all of that while the rest of us grovel to learn the basic stuff *sarcasm intended*.

Most of us can know most of it. None of us can know all of it.Some think they have found the Holy Grail hiding in the cracks after thousands of years. Maybe God revealed something to them. Maybe He didn't. I tend to side with the latter most of the time. If anything, our mediator Christ Jesus tells us what we need to know if we are keen to find out. If we turn our lights off though, He might just let us stumble in the darkness.

52 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

The only reason I think that this matters is because things have changed in the churches and in ministries. In the past not too long ago there were any amount of ministries that addressed the occult - but were in truth talking about the activities of Satan and unclean spirits. Most of those ministries caused enormous harm because the men and occasionally the few women who ran them were boasters. Today that vulgar kind of false ministry has been replaced with an extremely sophisticated sophistry of genuine occult abilities that hardly manifests demonically at all - but transcends into believers thinking they have become gods who can deliver the church from Satan and the world by the power of God which they wield like a sorceric wand. We clearly have a different view of what the occult is. So no surprises that I say that the power of the occult is in our own flesh as per Galatians 5:20 and doesn't need a sausage from the Devil to make the dog bark. We can bark ourselves just fine. 

I remember periods where certain churches, denominations and book authors capitalized on the sensationalism of the subject. Many of them still do. The box office does pretty well on movies now made around occult ideas. Unfortunately it's just one huge hook in Satan's tackle box that's very tempting to the masses of the unaware and the uninformed.

Yes I don't see it the same as you. I don't disassociate Satan and Demons because he is at the root of all of it. Yes the flesh is involved big time as well because most people who get into it are there because they want what's in it for THEM and because it appeals to their lower nature. Just because it might not seem to 'manifest' demonically does not mean it isn't demonic. I see it as really all of that combined. A great big mess of evil.

[missmuffet]

God definitely doesn't like magic, paganism and the occult and the Bible tells us to stay away from it but Satan wants people to grasp it.  And that includes Harry Potter. 

[Kelly2363]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

Satan and demons seem to be left out of your explanation, yet I think you would agree that in order to use created things for our benefit while still maintaining an independence from God necessarily uses Satan and demons because we as humans can't do these things ourselves. This is akin to tapping into a power that they deny they are using. This would be the height of naivete.

 

Thats because the occult in NOT Satan nor demons it is the power that resides in men. There is no seems like in that meaning. It is indefatigable. Adam was a very different man to whom we believe he was. And Satan desired his power - not Adam desiring Satan's power. Satan is disempowered - Adam was given the power and authority to reign over the entire earth. When the Lord was on the earth He showed just how easy a matter it was to trample Satan's kingdom under foot. And then at the Cross the Lord made a public display of him. Satan is a shill - he is a lair and a worthless bag of garbage. He has no power on the earth and he knows it. It is the power that resides in men that he wants. Nothing could be more different to how some define the occult than that definition. So I am unconcerned about the issue. It is that simple.

The most powerful man to live in the earth (outside Christ) since the time of Adam - albeit in visibility for a mere 42 months - is a man and not an angel or a demon. So is his false prophet. He is a man. Satan gets to give him his power only because his power is finally cast down with just 42 months left of this age. So he uses it on the earth in its full effect. But he needs two men to accomplish his ambitions. Cuddly - lovely - sweet boys - just like Mommy used to say. There is no purpose in continuing because we are speaking about two entirely different things. Secret societies are man made. Secret orders are man made. Hidden abuse of children is a man made sin. And so on. We give Satan far too much power over us when we attribute to him what once belonged to Adam - given by God and capable of making him the most intelligent man who walked the earth. The rest of us are stinted by comparison. Watchman Nee called this power the latent power of the soul.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Kelly2363
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[David1701]

3 hours ago, Starise said:

I agree and would only add that we shouldn't do anything unless the Lord calls us into it.

Agreed - it's a general principle (to be led by the Lord).  I was applying it to a specific area.

Quote

Not sure what level of involvement you imply by "dealing" with occultism. I think we mostly come across it, or at least I have. It's a part of the biblical narrative on the bad guys. I see it as better to be informed if faced with it than to know nothing about it and have to play catch up when or if something happens. What could possibly happen some say? How about missing persons for a start. What if you are related to said persons? How about family involved in it? I think we need to know what to pray for or against. How about representations of it in certain churches as has been mentioned here already? Do we want to put on the blinders and be naive about all of that? I think God calls ALL of us to be diligent and vigilant. Vigilance demands study. Study informs us. Being informed is always helpful.

What I was thinking about, was not situations in which you come across occultism, but situations in which you actively look for it, in order to deal with it (very unwise).  Coming across it and having to deal with it, is one thing, but going looking for it is another entirely.

[Kelly2363]

3 hours ago, Starise said:

I don't disassociate Satan and Demons because he is at the root of all of it. Yes the flesh is involved big time as well because most people who get into it are there because they want what's in it for THEM and because it appeals to their lower nature. Just because it might not seem to 'manifest' demonically does not mean it isn't demonic. I see it as really all of that combined. A great big mess of evil.

 

And to address this element of your comment separately. 

David's point 8 in his post illuminated that meaning which I expressly mentioned in the post you elected to comment on. The demonisation of men is not a demon in possession of a man - it is a man in possession of a wicked ambition that increasingly overthrows the righteousness of God in visibility of men. One time when I was in deliverance ministry to individuals I, along with my co-worker would be called out to demoniacs who were exhibiting vile behaviour - especially in an attempt to tag children with an effect - and when we were in that work it was always a simple matter to bind the spirit and then begin to speak to the man. Over the course of years I noticed an increasing change that in the end wasn't a demonic manifestation that I was called to look into - but a whole network of ill effects in which no one could even begin to fathom who was responsible - other than in a way of attributing it all to the Devil. And my entire ministry has never been about unbelievers. It has all been grounded in the churches.

Demonic behaviour in the churches seems like a perfectly respectable parade. But it causes more harm than most of us know because we so often just leave things with God because we can't get to the bottom of a thing. But I have seen and documented unspeakable harm in the churches that would make most believers speechless if they knew how that harm comes into the churches - demonic harm - satanic ambition - judgement of God being its most visible outcome - including loss of life and even the loss of children. Not once but numerous times. In that environment all I witnessed was brethren blaming the devil - blaming each other and never once saw anyone take responsibility for their own occult predications. They all wanted a bogey man. 

 

Occult thinking is now finding its fullest outworking in an emergent theology amongst God’s very elect. At the heart of this emergent theology lies a rational and undeniable reality, that is so seductive, that it makes of its adherents a tangible realisation of god-like understanding that resists rebuke, because at the heart of it lies the minds of men and women, and has little if anything to do with demonic activity as was historically understood even thirty years ago. In short men and women are becoming demonic in their inclinations, thereby making demonic activity less visible and more subtle than at any time in history.

 

That above quote is the opening paragraph of chapter seven of a book I wrote to describe the change that had come into the churches in my life time and it was only in 1999 that I realised that what I was witnessing was a mirror of the demonic world that is truly hidden because it speaks about who they were before they were judged and dispossessed of their bodies. I realised just how brethren were literally desiring to do some good thing - but because they were utilising their own latent powers in a charismatic effect that covered it and gave it a seeming validity - they were in the end literally coming against God. And that in the end was  not only judged by God - but was warned about before it came to pass. I know because in numerous instances I was the one doing the warning and expressing outcomes that would come to judgement. 

Whereas demons will shrink back from a rebuke - most believers will simply walk away indifferently because they cannot and will not see their flesh and its effects.

So yes we are talking about profoundly different things. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Kelly2363
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[Starise]

21 hours ago, Kelly2363 said:

 

Thats because the occult in NOT Satan nor demons it is the power that resides in men. There is no seems like in that meaning. It is indefatigable. Adam was a very different man to whom we believe he was. And Satan desired his power - not Adam desiring Satan's power. Satan is disempowered - Adam was given the power and authority to reign over the entire earth. When the Lord was on the earth He showed just how easy a matter it was to trample Satan's kingdom under foot. And then at the Cross the Lord made a public display of him. Satan is a shill - he is a lair and a worthless bag of garbage. He has no power on the earth and he knows it. It is the power that resides in men that he wants. Nothing could be more different to how some define the occult than that definition. So I am unconcerned about the issue. It is that simple.

The most powerful man to live in the earth (outside Christ) since the time of Adam - albeit in visibility for a mere 42 months - is a man and not an angel or a demon. So is his false prophet. He is a man. Satan gets to give him his power only because his power is finally cast down with just 42 months left of this age. So he uses it on the earth in its full effect. But he needs two men to accomplish his ambitions. Cuddly - lovely - sweet boys - just like Mommy used to say. There is no purpose in continuing because we are speaking about two entirely different things. Secret societies are man made. Secret orders are man made. Hidden abuse of children is a man made sin. And so on. We give Satan far too much power over us when we attribute to him what once belonged to Adam - given by God and capable of making him the most intelligent man who walked the earth. The rest of us are stinted by comparison. Watchman Nee called this power the latent power of the soul.

Well I've studied many of the people who were occultists. Many were also spiritualists, heavily involved in eastern religions. Often they are freemasons at high levels. There are several different narratives when examining these people. There's the Wikipedia biographies which never specifically mention demons that I have seen. Then there are the stories from witnesses about how these people actually lived and what they did. The first one is very sterile compared to the last one. The debauchery most of them participated in was disgusting. I guess if you were looking for demons in these bio they wouldn't be apparent immediately, though I can safety infer they were into communications and worship of evil entities by the very nature of what they did. What they were involved in.

As I said, I see both men and these demons as evil. I have always seem the demonic as far more evil than all but the most evil of humanity. I guess what concerns me most about the view you have is it seems to minimize the impact of Satan at the very least. Satan is far from a whipped puppy. Yes he is defeated but him and his minions still manage to make a lot of trouble and be responsible for a lot of trouble. If anything I see Satan as the one who maximizes the worst parts of men. He was a manipulator from the very beginning and he still is. All of those murderer's who heard voices in their heads, what do you think that was? The devil is the prince and power of the air. The prince of this earth right now and he can't be minimized or explained away as a 'has been' just yet.