Why would God punish us in this dispensation (New Covenant) when Christ has been punished for us?

[biblelesson]

God does not punish us in our life under this current dispensation (New Covenant) because His Son took our punishment; Jesus died to cover the sins of the world and sin is blotted out in Christ, Colossians 2:14, “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

 God is working today to gathering the souls of those who will be saved in Christ; and He is doing this through the Holy Spirit.   

Philippians 1:6, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”   So, It is God who Has begun a good work, and He is perfecting it in us, 1 Peter 5:10, “But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.”

1 Corinthians 1:3-4, “Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort, who comforteth us in all our tribulations, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.  So, as we go through our tribulation and suffering and afterwards, we are to comfort others the way God comforts us.  But if we think we are being punished, how will God comfort us?

We will suffer tribulation, persecution, and difficult times, which is the process of the furnace of fire. When we find ourselves in the furnace, it’s a shock to the system, the psyche, and the heart.  Christians are place in situation they have never experience before, and of course will not have the knowledge and wisdom to help them maneuver in such situations.  God is aware that when He throws the Christian in the furnace of fire, that Christian is going to make many mistakes throughout their trial, and these mistakes are sins.   However, we are told to count it all joy.  So, what are we counting all joy while going through such trials that we don’t like, don’t know how to handle, don’t know what to do, is scarry, heart breaking, makes us angry, etc.?  What’s the joy of such a situation?  God’s grace is the joy.  God knowing the pain and suffering we will endure is working to make us “walk thou holy before Him.”  We are being made perfect for the Kingdom in Christ Jesus.
 
But because we really, really don’t understand, at first, we think that because our reactions of anger, strong words to others, bitterness, and other responses, which is what the trials are supposed to bring out, is wrong and sinful, and God is punishing us. We think, “I must have sinned, that’s why I’m dealing with this situation.”   But no, God is not punishing us.  Jesus was punished for us.  God is growing us to be able to STAND!  

When we think God is punishing us, we are making a mistake in judgment.  What’s happening is we are following the lies of the devil.  

There are two planes:

Plane 1

In Christ there is no sin because Christ has been made sin for us, 2 Corinthians 5:21.   Therefore, God does not impute sin onto us, Romans 4:8.  In this present dispensation, God does not punish us, but allow us to go through trials for His purposes for our salvation.  But He is doing the work on us, and we will get through it.  

Plane 2

Satan is the one causing the grief, but God allows it like Job.  God uses it for good, but Satan uses it for bad.  Satan lies and tells us that we are going through our suffering because we committed a sin against God, and that we are being punished.  But this is a lie because Christ died for the sinner, and we are a reconciled to God in Christ.  

2 Corinthians 5:18, “And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them…”

So, we are not being punished for our sins in this dispensation (New Covenant), we are being put through trials that are difficult, which provides an opportunity for Satan to lie to us, like he did with job by causing Job’s friends to make incorrect assessment of his situation causing more grief for him. 

The punishment will come in the end for those who do not accept Christ as their savior.  

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by biblelesson

[Kelly2363]

2 hours ago, biblelesson said:

God does not punish us in our life under this current dispensation (New Covenant) because His Son took our punishment; Jesus died to cover the sins of the world and sin is blotted out in Christ, Colossians 2:14, “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

 God is working today to gathering the souls of those who will be saved in Christ; and He is doing this through the Holy Spirit.   

Philippians 1:6, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”   So, It is God who Has begun a good work, and He is perfecting it in us, 1 Peter 5:10, “But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.”

1 Corinthians 1:3-4, “Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort, who comforteth us in all our tribulations, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.  So, as we go through our tribulation and suffering and afterwards, we are to comfort others the way God comforts us.  But if we think we are being punished, how will God comfort us?

We will suffer tribulation, persecution, and difficult times, which is the process of the furnace of fire. When we find ourselves in the furnace, it’s a shock to the system, the psyche, and the heart.  Christians are place in situation they have never experience before, and of course will not have the knowledge and wisdom to help them maneuver in such situations.  God is aware that when He throws the Christian in the furnace of fire, that Christian is going to make many mistakes throughout their trial, and these mistakes are sins.   However, we are told to count it all joy.  So, what are we counting all joy while going through such trials that we don’t like, don’t know how to handle, don’t know what to do, is scarry, heart breaking, makes us angry, etc.?  What’s the joy of such a situation?  God’s grace is the joy.  God knowing the pain and suffering we will endure is working to make us “walk thou holy before Him.”  We are being made perfect for the Kingdom in Christ Jesus.
 
But because we really, really don’t understand, at first, we think that because our reactions of anger, strong words to others, bitterness, and other responses, which is what the trials are supposed to bring out, is wrong and sinful, and God is punishing us. We think, “I must have sinned, that’s why I’m dealing with this situation.”   But no, God is not punishing us.  Jesus was punished for us.  God is growing us to be able to STAND!  

When we think God is punishing us, we are making a mistake in judgment.  What’s happening is we are following the lies of the devil.  

There are two planes:

Plane 1

In Christ there is no sin because Christ has been made sin for us, 2 Corinthians 5:21.   Therefore, God does not impute sin onto us, Romans 4:8.  In this present dispensation, God does not punish us, but allow us to go through trials for His purposes for our salvation.  But He is doing the work on us, and we will get through it.  

Plane 2

Satan is the one causing the grief, but God allows it like Job.  God uses it for good, but Satan uses it for bad.  Satan lies and tells us that we are going through our suffering because we committed a sin against God, and that we are being punished.  But this is a lie because Christ died for the sinner, and we are a reconciled to God in Christ.  

2 Corinthians 5:18, “And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them…”

So, we are not being punished for our sins in this dispensation (New Covenant), we are being put through trials that are difficult, which provides an opportunity for Satan to lie to us, like he did with job by causing Job’s friends to make incorrect assessment of his situation causing more grief for him. 

The punishment will come in the end for those who do not accept Christ as their savior.  

 

There are major problems with this presentation because the church in many places is filled with people who utterly depend on exactly these premises to abuse and harm the flocks of God. Just as in the past and to a lesser extent today the church in many places has been filled with those who abuse the flocks by a heavy hand. Today they abuse the flocks by turning away from sin and winking at harm.

In your scheme the first ought to be that God perfects through discipline those whom He has called and in the second scheme judgement begins in the household of God.

One is sonship - the other is judgement and a taking away. 

[biblelesson]

1 hour ago, Kelly2363 said:

There are major problems with this presentation because the church in many places is filled with people who utterly depend on exactly these premises to abuse and harm the flocks of God. Just as in the past and to a lesser extent today the church in many places has been filled with those who abuse the flocks by a heavy hand. Today they abuse the flocks by turning away from sin and winking at harm.

In your scheme the first ought to be that God perfects through discipline those whom He has called and in the second scheme judgement begins in the household of God.

One is sonship - the other is judgement and a taking away. 

I don’t know what your point is. 

[Kelly2363]

19 minutes ago, biblelesson said:

I don’t know what your point is. 

Well I suppose I made several visible points because I stated them - but if you mean what was not stated then I mean that tribulation as it is coming will be punishment on a wicked and perverse house that has made a commodity out of the flock. And that will first descend upon the pastors and the elders - and then likewise to those who have upheld them in their abuses. There is no hope at all for the false prophetic ministry of 40 years ago that brought these effects and consequences in. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Kelly2363
Spelling & Clarification

[biblelesson]

32 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

Well I suppose I made several visible points because I stated them - but if you mean what was not stated then I mean that tribulation as it is coming will be punishment on a wicked and perverse house that has made a commodity out of the flock. And that will first descend upon the pastors and the elders - and then likewise to those who have upheld them in their abuses. There is no hope at all for the false prophetic ministry of 40 years ago that brought these effects and consequences in. 

You are absolutely correct.  The bible warns about many false prophets who will be punished  to include those who uphold them as well, and yes we see this throughout many ministries that started more than 40 years ago.    But how is what I posted upholding "abuse and harm the flocks of God" by these falsehoods?

Just because people take advantage of and manipulate God's people in false ministries, that does not erase the truth of God's word.  It's unfortunate that we have to deal with situations such as the one you mention, but we must learn how to discern. Many unsuspecting Christians have been taken advantage of by false ministries, and still are being taking advantage of and mislead.  I for one have been hurt by them, but what I did not know then, I know now. God led me out and healed my hurt. 

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by biblelesson

[Desopixi Seilynam]

If I made you sorry by letter, I do not regret it...

Godly sorrow works repentance to salvation, not to be regretted.  1 Corinthians 7:8-10

As many as I love I rebuke and chasten, be zealous therefore and repent. Rev 3:19

-------

There is a consequence for sin. The wages of sin is death. Sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

The grief we face is sometimes a direct consequence of sin.
For example one caught in adultery would and should experience some level of grief.
Those suppressing that kind of grief and shame are hardening their hearts.

Through Christ we have been granted the divine power to turn from sin.

And they that belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. Galatians 5:24

For some that crucifixion is a long and painful process, but nevertheless, in every Christians life, it happens,
and they reach a state of mind of peace with God and peace with men, and control over themselves.

[Michael37]

6 hours ago, biblelesson said:

God does not punish us in our life under this current dispensation (New Covenant) because His Son took our punishment; Jesus died to cover the sins of the world and sin is blotted out in Christ, Colossians 2:14, “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

Hi biblelesson, You have picked up on a somewhat distorted theology that constantly circulates in various forms. As a Christian I would be most concerned if God didn't correct and discipline me for getting out of line, and put obstacles in my path to protect and prevent me from abusing my position in the body of Christ.     

God judged and punished the wicked pre-flood inhabitants of earth, and also Israel for backsliding into spiritual fornication and idolatry.

I believe sin has consequences for all, even for the redeemed. Those who are really saved are led to repentance from sin by the chastisement of God. Hardened criminals who come to Christ in prison testify to this, as do many who have walked in darkness and been brought low before repenting.

From start to finish the Bible warns God's People that sin has consequences. In one sense Moses was "punished" by being refused entry to the Promised Land and David was "punished" by the loss of children and not being allowed to build the Temple.

Some of the letters to the churches in Revelation warn of "punishment" for those who do not repent, and Paul was told why God permitted his suffering to persist.

(2Co 12:7)  And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

[biblelesson]

53 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

If I made you sorry by letter, I do not regret it...

Godly sorrow works repentance to salvation, not to be regretted.  1 Corinthians 7:8-10

As many as I love I rebuke and chasten, be zealous therefore and repent. Rev 3:19

-------

There is a consequence for sin. The wages of sin is death. Sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

The grief we face is sometimes a direct consequence of sin.
For example one caught in adultery would and should experience some level of grief.
Those suppressing that kind of grief and shame are hardening their hearts.

Through Christ we have been granted the divine power to turn from sin.

And they that belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. Galatians 5:24

For some that crucifixion is a long and painful process, but nevertheless, in every Christians life, it happens,
and they reach a state of mind of peace with God and peace with men, and control over themselves.

Exactly what the suffering for Christ is to accomplish: to manifest the Fruit of the Spirit!

[biblelesson]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

Hi biblelesson, You have picked up on a somewhat distorted theology that constantly circulates in various forms. As a Christian I would be most concerned if God didn't correct and discipline me for getting out of line, and put obstacles in my path to protect and prevent me from abusing my position in the body of Christ.     

God judged and punished the wicked pre-flood inhabitants of earth, and also Israel for backsliding into spiritual fornication and idolatry.

I believe sin has consequences for all, even for the redeemed. Those who are really saved are led to repentance from sin by the chastisement of God. Hardened criminals who come to Christ in prison testify to this, as do many who have walked in darkness and been brought low before repenting.

From start to finish the Bible warns God's People that sin has consequences. In one sense Moses was "punished" by being refused entry to the Promised Land and David was "punished" by the loss of children and not being allowed to build the Temple.

Some of the letters to the churches in Revelation warn of "punishment" for those who do not repent, and Paul was told why God permitted his suffering to persist.

(2Co 12:7)  And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

The chastisement and discipline are the trials! God chastise and scourge those he loves, Hebrews 12:6-7.

Consider the word scourge! Christ was scourged, John 19:1, “Then Pilot therefore took Jesus, and scourged him”

The trials are difficult because of our sinful nature. Through the trials, God is conforming us to the likeness of Christ, Romans 8:29, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestination to be conformed to be the image of His Son...”

James 1:12, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."

Edited September 16, 2021 by biblelesson

[Michael37]

30 minutes ago, biblelesson said:

The chastisement and discipline are the trials! God chastise and scourge those he loves, Hebrews 12:6-7.

Consider the word scourge! Christ was scourged, John 19:1, “Then Pilot therefore took Jesus, and scourged him”

The trials are difficult because of our sinful nature. Through the trials, God is conforming us to the likeness of Christ, Romans 8:29, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestination to be conformed to be the image of His Son...”

James 1:12, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."

The punishment for not repenting of leaving their first love is also chastisement. Chastisement is punishment.

(Rev 2:4)  Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
(Rev 2:5)  Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.