biblelesson

According to Mark 16:17, speaking in tongue is a sign of salvation, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues." Speaking in tongue is one of the gifts of the Spirit. There are other gifts that believers receive from the Holy Spirit. These gifts are signs identifying a believer from the non-believer. Some people say they speak in tongue, but might not be speaking a tongue from the Holy Spirit. That's why believers are given spiritual discernment, 1 Corinthians 2:14.

The post you are responding to was a question or comment about Christians needing disciplinary punishment as an incentive to repent, which is a response based on my original post, which states, Why would God punish us in this dispensation (New Covenant) when Christ has been punished for us? My post is about the believer, and not non-believers. Only if a non-believer converts, are their sins forgiven. So, in regard to Ananias and Sapphira, we see that during that time, the Holy Spirit presence was great as Peter was converting thousands of people to Christ. Many miracles of healing were being performed as well. Peter did not ask Ananias why he lied to him, but why did he lie to the Holy Ghost. Acts 5:4 says Ananias lied to God. The bible tells us that the sin against the Holy Ghost cannot not be forgiven, Matthew 12:31-32. So at the point of their lying to Holy Ghost, apparently there was no forgiveness for their sin and they were punished immediately. 1 Corinthians 11:2 - Relates to those who are not sincere in heart, and drink of the wine and eat of the bread unworthy. How can these people be unworthy? They are eating of the body and blood of Christ with hearts that really did not care about Christ; they were not sincere. They were falsely confessing Christ. This is a lesson for many, even for myself, that I must judge myself as 1 Corinthians 11:31 says, “For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. Numbers 20:12 is under the old dispensation (Old Testament) and God does not deal with us in the same manner under the New Testament in Christ. Our mistakes or sins are forgiven in Christ Jesus who is our advocate. When we do wrong, God is faithful to forgive us, 1 John 1:9, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. I will post this again: As far as God's word is concerned, a testor must die before a testament can be of force. Hebrews 9:16-23, "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. So once Christ died, the strength of the new testament became of full force to us, with the old testament being done away with having no force at all. We must look and see how does those scriptures fold over into the gospel in order for them to be of force to us. We have to be carful to follow the new and not the old. So base on understanding dispensations, we are now under a different dispensation, and the old testament scriptures apply for us under the gospel now; that is the new covenant. For example, Paul was admonishing the Corinthians about reading the old testament without regards to the gospel. He said in 2 Corinthians 3:13-18, "And not as Moses, which put a veil over their face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14, But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. What this means is there are scriptures in the old testament that does not apply to us, and those that do apply to us, we must know how they apply based on the new dispensation, the new covenant, so that our minds will not be blinded by simply reading the old testament without consideration to the new testament.

What I have written is based on biblical truth. Jesus was disciplined for us. However, how does one figuratively touch the ark of the covenant? There needs to be more to go on before I can find a biblical explanation.

You said that there is no incentive for Christians to repent of sin if there is no disciplinary action. However, the incentive to repent is because we have accepted Christ as our savior, and know he died for our sins, and we don’t want to continue in sinful behavior because we honor Christ and what Christ did for us on the cross. We repented of our sins when we receive Christ as our savior, and we have made a commitment to the commandments in the gospel where it tells us what behaviors we are to put off. Put off the old man, and put on the new man. Ephesians 4:22-24, “That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts….” 24 “And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.” And if we sin, we have an advocate who sits in heaven at the right hand of God the Father, and He makes intercessions for us. There is no disciplinary punishment because our advocate is the one who died for our sins and covers them before our Father in Heaven. Jesus advocate for us: 1 John 2:1, “My little children, these things I wrote unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father: Jesus Christ the righteous.” Jesus makes intercessions for us: Romans 8:34, “Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God who also maketh intercession for us. When we find ourselves struggling with sin, and may have committed a wrong, we are to go to the throne of grace for help (not expect disciplinary punishment), Hebrews 4:16, “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in a time of need. Here we ask God to help us stop committing a sin that we find difficult to stop or change a situation that is causing us to commit a sin. Salvation is based on mercy and love. When a Christian repents, get baptized, and accept Christ as their savior, they are coming as a sinner. God receives the Christian in the family of God with all their faults: bad behaviors, wrong thinking, addictions, selfishness, anger, resentments, hurt from abuse, sexual immorality, blindness, idolatry, etc. etc. These are the people who God accepts and transforms through trials. Jesus came to save the sinner, not the saved. 1 Timothy 1:15, “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save the sinners of whom I am chief.” To continue to see it the way you are seeing it thinking that there must be some incentive for Christians to repent, which should be some disciplinary action is denying Christ, as if Christ was not our incentive to repent, who received the disciplinary action for us. He shed His blood for us! Let me say it again, He shed His blood for us. And just in case you did not hear me, I will say it again, He shed His blood for us. He received the discipline ONCE and for all, Romans 6:10, For in that he died, he died unto sin once, but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. So we don’t crucify Christ afresh believing in disciplinary punishments as an incentive to repent for our sins. We don’t fall away from the truth of what Christ did for us thinking we need repentance again. No, we hold on to the truth of the cross and follow the gospel. We are not to put Christ to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come. 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. It doesn’t sound like you are in this scripture. It just seems like you don’t’ understand the gospel. Pray for understanding. We don’t crucify Christ afresh by repenting, and repenting, and repenting.. We repented once, when we accepted Christ, and the sins that God accepted in His Son for us are sins that we work on in our life to Change. The gospel commandments go into great detail about what we are to do, and what we are not to do, and if we find that we are struggling, which all of us struggle, we continue to ask God for help to change the behavior. We must have a contrite heart to want to change, even when we make a mistake. We go to God with a contrite humble heart and confess our wrongs, and turn over to Him the sins that we struggle with and that we are trying to overcome asking for mercy and help, but not as a form of disciplinary actions being an incentive for forgiveness, but because we honor God, fear God, and don't want to continue to commit sin in our life.

Don't discount Jesus suffering and what Jesus did for us on the cross when it comes to forgiveness. Also consider that the scriptures you listed, Jesus was talking to those under the law and He had not died yet, so we have to know how these verses now relate to the gospel under the New Testament. This is important for understanding the various dispensations. As far as God's word is concerned, a testor must die before a testament can be of force. So the New Testament was not in force when Jesus quoted those scriptures. The Old Testament was still in force. Hebrews 9:16-23, "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. So once Christ died, the strength of the new testament became of full force to us, with the old testament being done away with having no force at all. We must look and see how does those scriptures fold over into the gospel in order for them to be of force to us. We have to be carful to follow the new and not the old. So base on understanding dispensations, we are now under a different dispensation, and the old testament scriptures apply for us under the gospel now; that is the new covenant. For example, Paul was admonishing the Corinthians about reading the old testament without regards to the gospel. He said in 2 Corinthians 3:13-18, "And not as Moses, which put a veil over their face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14, But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. What this means is there are scriptures in the old testament that does not apply to us, and those that do apply to us, we must know how they apply based on the new dispensation, the new covenant, so that our minds will not be blinded by simply reading the old testament without consideration to the new testament. For example the scriptures you listed: (Mat 18:32) Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Under the new covenant, we are the wicked servant. This is not just true for one wicked individual, but for us all now. We all have fallen short of the glory of God. But God forgave us our sins, He relieved us of our debt out of his compassions for us in Christ. (Mat 18:33) Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?' This is speaking about loving others, which we don't do in the flesh under the new dispensation, but we express the love that is of the Fruit of the Spirit, given to us by the Holy Spirit. 1 John 3:24, "And he that keepth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know he abideth in us by the Spirit which he hath given us." Titus 3:5, "He saved us, not of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit." (Mat 18:34) And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. (Mat 18:35) "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses." If we don't walk in the love of the spirit that enables us to forgive others, not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, and if we don't have the Spirit of Christ, we are non of his. So the only thing we have coming is being delivered to the tormentors. It's important to understand the flesh. If we were crucified with Christ, and if Christ lives in us, then how can our flesh be of any benefit? Meaning, how can we do what God commands in the flesh, of our own without the Spirt if we have been crucified with Christ on the cross? This is what some people don't understand and argue about. But what's not understood is we are given Power by the Spirit to accomplish what God commands in the gospel. God made provisions to give us His Spirit because He crucified us on the cross with His Son Jesus. So, after God put the flesh to death He did not leave us without help. He has given us His Spirt. But we continue to struggle and do everything in the flesh, therefore, we never get the benefit of the Spirit and the Power of the Spirit in our lives. And because people have not experience the Spirit, they argue with those who are trying to inform them how important is to walk by the Spirit and not the flesh (carnal man). People who have not experience this Power, must pray to God for understanding and ask God to give them His Spirit, because without the Spirit of Christ, which is the Holy Spirit, we can't be conformed to the person of Christ, and we will lack the Fruit of the Spirit, and we cannot be the firstfruits unto God when Christ comes back, or when we die. We must have Christ's Spirit because when we are resurrected, the flesh (carnal nature) drops off and we are left with the Spirt of God that He gives us in our life today. For those who are not in Christ, when they are resurrected, they are resurrected with the carnal nature still intact, and they are changed to a body that does not die, but they don't have Christ's Spirit. In this state, they cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Romans 8:9, ..."Now if any man does have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His."

God is not disciplining us for getting out of line, God is sanctifying the saints; growing us up in Christ to became the first fruits unto Him and the Lamb as mentioned in Revelation 14:.4. There are other places that mention the saints being the firstfruits unto God. We are to be holy and God being the Husbandman does the work on us through trials. Without these trials that produces fruit (Fruit of the Spirit), although very painful, we would not be able to stand before Him. Sin does has consequences, and Jesus had to pay the price for our sins. He suffered for us because WE are sinners. So that's the consequence we need to be clear about. Not us, because whatever we do, we cannot please God because we are sinners. Our sins have been covered by the blood of Christ. When we deny what Christ did for us, and think we can please God through doing actions of good believing that makes us obedient, we deny the suffering Christ had to endure for US. Because we then are looking at what we do, and not what Christ did. So, obedience is to follow the gospel message, the gospel of Christ which tells us that of ourselves we can do noting: our strength is in the Power of the Spirit of Christ. It is correct that salvation is for everyone who truly accept Christ as their savior, to include hardened criminals. Every one who accepts Christ is drawn by the Father. We don't even make that decision. John 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Also, we are to look at the punishment that God handed out under the Old Testament (Old Covenant) under the Israelites as pointing to Christ. The requirement for obedience was different then. They were required to make multiple sacrifices for sin, and honor yearly holy days, such as the day of atonement. All of the those laws pointed to Christ, and when Christ died on that cross, He atoned for our sins and nailed the law to the cross. So we are under the New Covenant under Christ and are saved by the gospel of Christ. So my original post was about sin not being imputed unto us under this dispensation (new covenant), and the trials we go through are not because we have committed a sin, but that God is dealing with our sin nature to grow us up into the likeness of Christ.

I don't know if you see what you are doing, but this is what I'm getting from what you have written. You seem to want to be in charge of these people, but because we don't have that right, meaning, we are not God, we can't make pastors like those you are referring to see that their actions are harmful to God's flock; because some have wrong motivations anyway. God has already said there will be false prophets to deceived the people. We can't make people live a godly life if they don't want to, and if they are dealing with something in the church that has caused their bitterness; that is way beyond your ability to fix. We pray for them, offer support if they want support but we must be careful and try the spirits of people so that we don's become bitter too. We have an adversary, Satan, that opposes God and is responsible for these confusion and rejecting God's word. What you don't recognize is you are the one turning a blind eye to God's word, while watching these people. You are taking the pain of the situation and judging the word of God according to what you see in them, instead of seeing what the word of God is saying about the situation. We are only required to follow the Gospel. We are also responsible for serving God for the purpose of edifying the church, but it must be done according to how we are instructed to do so in the gospel. We don't take it upon ourselves to be lord over people because we see they are not following God's word! And what I said in my post is biblical, and if someone's pain and hurt causes them to not be able to accept God's word as it is written, or reject His word, then that's between that person and God. God knows how to save his own.

Ok, maybe I have misunderstood you. So back to the original post. How do you see the suffering Christians go through in your own personal life, and that we suffer based on our sinful nature to be conformed to Christ, and not based on sins we commit? Jesus covers our sins. But our sinful nature is what God is working with! God shows us ourselves through the sufferings, and then heals those areas that need healing to produce a Christ like faith and the Fruit of the Spirit in us. What do you think?

What you mentioned related to falsehood in the ministry, so that's why I mentioned it. This is what you said: "Well I suppose I made several visible points because I stated them - but if you mean what was not stated then I mean that tribulation as it is coming will be punishment on a wicked and perverse house that has made a commodity out of the flock. And that will first descend upon the pastors and the elders - and then likewise to those who have upheld them in their abuses. There is no hope at all for the false prophetic ministry of 40 years ago that brought these effects and consequences in."

What's confusing about your post is you seem to be focused outside of yourself, and judging the sinful wrongs of the many false preachers and elders in these churches when the bible has provides us warnings about them, and deals with the very subject you are talking about. You are saying no more than what God has already said in, Matthew 7:15-20, Ezekiel 13:3, 1 John 4:1, Romans 16:8, Deuteronomy 18:20, Corinthians 11:13-15, just to name a few. It will be these false preachers, teachers, apostle, etc. who will assist with causing many to fall. They are causing many to fall away now. Micah 3:5 says, "Thus saith the Lord concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him. And as for the people who stay under the false preachers, and false teachings, God says in Isaiah 30:9-13, "That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the Lord: 10 Which say to the seers, See not and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: 11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel (Jesus) to cease form before us." There is nothing we can do about this situation because it has been already prophesied. However, God warns His people to come out from among them, not wonder about it. 2 Corinthians 6:17, "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separated, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you." And 2 John 1:9-10 warns that "Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, received him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." When it comes to "us" examining ourselves, we are not to look at the behaviors of others before looking at ourselves. We have to be careful to not fall into Romans 2:21-22,, "Thou therefore that teaches another, do thou teach thyself? thou that preaches a man should not steal, does thou steal, Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, doest thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, doest thou commit sacrilege?" I pray to God Almighty that we follow the gospel and not be persuaded to follow falsehood based on our own arrogance and pride. One scripture that is really important to understand is 2 Peter 3:16 which says, "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." This scripture should cause us all to pray to God, regularly, for discernment of the gospel of Christ! Just to clarify, my post was written to address a Christian suffering, which the bible addresses as trials that we go through. And while going through these trials, we are not to think God is punishing us because of a sinful behavior, because our sins have been forgiven through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross who shed His blood for us. But we are to understand the trials are to address our sinful nature. God needs to change us to be like Christ, to be holy before Him, Hebrews 9:14, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 1:9, Titus 3:5, Titus 2:14. There are many more scriptures that explain this process. It's the sanctification process that we go through, 1 Timothy 2:21, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." These are not just words. This is a real process that we go through ordained by God, and it's not a walk in the park. The definition for sanctification means: to make holy, set apart as sacred, consecrate, to purify or free form sin. The furnace of fire is to purify as mentioned in 1 Peter 4:12, "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the "fiery trial" which is to try you..... and 1 Peter 1:7, "That the trial of your faith being much more precious than gold that parisheth, though it be tried with fire..." Peter is quoting from Isaiah 48:10, "Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Jesus said in John 15:20, that "...The servant is not greater than his Lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you..." These words spoken by Christ, God will honor. Those in Christ who are Christ's servants, will have to deal with what Christ prophesied. No one likes it, but we love God, and we go through it knowing we are being perfected in Christ through the Holy Spirit. But, if a Christian does not go through this, then this verse applies as someone else pointed out, Hebrews 12:8, "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then ye are bastards, and not sons." God bless!

The chastisement and discipline are the trials! God chastise and scourge those he loves, Hebrews 12:6-7. Consider the word scourge! Christ was scourged, John 19:1, “Then Pilot therefore took Jesus, and scourged him” The trials are difficult because of our sinful nature. Through the trials, God is conforming us to the likeness of Christ, Romans 8:29, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestination to be conformed to be the image of His Son...” James 1:12, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."

Exactly what the suffering for Christ is to accomplish: to manifest the Fruit of the Spirit!

You are absolutely correct. The bible warns about many false prophets who will be punished to include those who uphold them as well, and yes we see this throughout many ministries that started more than 40 years ago. But how is what I posted upholding "abuse and harm the flocks of God" by these falsehoods? Just because people take advantage of and manipulate God's people in false ministries, that does not erase the truth of God's word. It's unfortunate that we have to deal with situations such as the one you mention, but we must learn how to discern. Many unsuspecting Christians have been taken advantage of by false ministries, and still are being taking advantage of and mislead. I for one have been hurt by them, but what I did not know then, I know now. God led me out and healed my hurt.

I don’t know what your point is.

God does not punish us in our life under this current dispensation (New Covenant) because His Son took our punishment; Jesus died to cover the sins of the world and sin is blotted out in Christ, Colossians 2:14, “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.” God is working today to gathering the souls of those who will be saved in Christ; and He is doing this through the Holy Spirit. Philippians 1:6, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” So, It is God who Has begun a good work, and He is perfecting it in us, 1 Peter 5:10, “But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.” 1 Corinthians 1:3-4, “Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort, who comforteth us in all our tribulations, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. So, as we go through our tribulation and suffering and afterwards, we are to comfort others the way God comforts us. But if we think we are being punished, how will God comfort us? We will suffer tribulation, persecution, and difficult times, which is the process of the furnace of fire. When we find ourselves in the furnace, it’s a shock to the system, the psyche, and the heart. Christians are place in situation they have never experience before, and of course will not have the knowledge and wisdom to help them maneuver in such situations. God is aware that when He throws the Christian in the furnace of fire, that Christian is going to make many mistakes throughout their trial, and these mistakes are sins. However, we are told to count it all joy. So, what are we counting all joy while going through such trials that we don’t like, don’t know how to handle, don’t know what to do, is scarry, heart breaking, makes us angry, etc.? What’s the joy of such a situation? God’s grace is the joy. God knowing the pain and suffering we will endure is working to make us “walk thou holy before Him.” We are being made perfect for the Kingdom in Christ Jesus. But because we really, really don’t understand, at first, we think that because our reactions of anger, strong words to others, bitterness, and other responses, which is what the trials are supposed to bring out, is wrong and sinful, and God is punishing us. We think, “I must have sinned, that’s why I’m dealing with this situation.” But no, God is not punishing us. Jesus was punished for us. God is growing us to be able to STAND! When we think God is punishing us, we are making a mistake in judgment. What’s happening is we are following the lies of the devil. There are two planes: Plane 1 In Christ there is no sin because Christ has been made sin for us, 2 Corinthians 5:21. Therefore, God does not impute sin onto us, Romans 4:8. In this present dispensation, God does not punish us, but allow us to go through trials for His purposes for our salvation. But He is doing the work on us, and we will get through it. Plane 2 Satan is the one causing the grief, but God allows it like Job. God uses it for good, but Satan uses it for bad. Satan lies and tells us that we are going through our suffering because we committed a sin against God, and that we are being punished. But this is a lie because Christ died for the sinner, and we are a reconciled to God in Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:18, “And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them…” So, we are not being punished for our sins in this dispensation (New Covenant), we are being put through trials that are difficult, which provides an opportunity for Satan to lie to us, like he did with job by causing Job’s friends to make incorrect assessment of his situation causing more grief for him. The punishment will come in the end for those who do not accept Christ as their savior.