Why would God punish us in this dispensation (New Covenant) when Christ has been punished for us?

[biblelesson]

26 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

My personal experience is of punishment which I know absolutely, unquestionably in my heart and mind, came from God, but not for my destruction or damnation . . . quite the opposite, but punishment nevertheless, which I still live with, Hallelujah.

If anyone thinks this is not Biblical I simply refer them to the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant.

(Mat 18:32)  Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.
(Mat 18:33)  Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?'
(Mat 18:34)  And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
(Mat 18:35)  "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."

Don't discount Jesus suffering and what Jesus did for us on the cross when it comes to forgiveness.  

Also consider that the scriptures you listed, Jesus was talking to those under the law and He had not died yet, so we have to know how these verses now relate to the gospel under the New Testament.  This is important for understanding the various dispensations. 

As far as God's word is concerned, a testor must die before a testament can be of force.  So the New Testament was not in force when Jesus quoted those scriptures.  The Old Testament was still in force. 

Hebrews 9:16-23, "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.  So once Christ died, the strength of the new testament became of full force to us, with the old testament being done away with having no force at all. We must look and see how does those scriptures fold over into the gospel in order for them to be of force to us. We have to be carful to follow the new and not the old. 

So base on understanding dispensations, we are now under a different dispensation, and the old testament scriptures apply for us under the gospel now; that is the new covenant.  For example, Paul was admonishing the Corinthians about reading the old testament without regards to the gospel. He said in 2 Corinthians 3:13-18, "And not as Moses, which put a veil over their face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14, But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.  What this means is there are scriptures in the old testament that does not apply to us, and those that do apply to us, we must know how they apply based on the new dispensation, the new covenant, so that our minds will not be blinded by simply reading the old testament without consideration to the new testament. 

For example the scriptures you listed:

(Mat 18:32)  Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 

Under the new covenant, we are the wicked servant. This is not just true for one wicked individual, but for us all now.  We all have fallen short of the glory of God.  But God forgave us our sins, He relieved us of our debt out of his compassions for us in Christ.  

(Mat 18:33)  Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?'  This is speaking about loving others, which we don't do in the flesh under the new dispensation, but we express the love that is of the Fruit of the Spirit, given to us by the Holy Spirit.   1 John 3:24, "And he that keepth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know he abideth in us by the Spirit which he hath given us." Titus 3:5, "He saved us, not of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."

(Mat 18:34)  And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
(Mat 18:35)  "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."

If we don't walk in the love of the spirit that enables us to forgive others, not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, and if we don't have the Spirit of Christ, we are non of his. So the only thing we have coming is being delivered to the tormentors.  

It's important to understand the flesh.  If we were crucified with Christ, and if Christ lives in us, then how can our flesh be of any benefit? Meaning, how can we do what God commands in the flesh, of our own without the Spirt if we have been crucified with Christ on the cross? 

This is what some people don't understand and argue about.  But what's not understood is we are given Power by the Spirit to accomplish what God commands in the gospel.  God made provisions to give us His Spirit because He crucified us on the cross with His Son Jesus.  So, after God put the flesh to death He did not leave us without help.  He has given us His Spirt.  But we continue to struggle and do everything in the flesh, therefore, we never get the benefit of the Spirit and the Power of the Spirit in our lives.  And because people have not experience the Spirit, they argue with those who are trying to inform them how important is to walk by the Spirit and not the flesh (carnal man). 
 

People who have not experience this Power, must pray to God for understanding and ask God to give them His Spirit, because without the Spirit of Christ, which is the Holy Spirit, we can't be conformed to the person of Christ, and we will lack the Fruit of the Spirit, and we cannot be the firstfruits unto God when Christ comes back, or when we die.  We must have Christ's Spirit because when we are resurrected, the flesh (carnal nature) drops off and we are left with the Spirt of God that He gives us in our life today.   For those who are not in Christ, when they are resurrected, they are resurrected with the carnal nature still intact, and they are changed to a body that does not die, but they don't have Christ's Spirit.  In this state, they cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. 

Romans 8:9, ..."Now if any man does have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His."

[Michael37]

3 hours ago, biblelesson said:

Don't discount Jesus suffering and what Jesus did for us on the cross when it comes to forgiveness.  

Also consider that the scriptures you listed, Jesus was talking to those under the law and He had not died yet, so we have to know how these verses now relate to the gospel under the New Testament.  This is important for understanding the various dispensations. 

As far as God's word is concerned, a testor must die before a testament can be of force.  So the New Testament was not in force when Jesus quoted those scriptures.  The Old Testament was still in force. 

Hebrews 9:16-23, "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.  So once Christ died, the strength of the new testament became of full force to us, with the old testament being done away with having no force at all. We must look and see how does those scriptures fold over into the gospel in order for them to be of force to us. We have to be carful to follow the new and not the old. 

So base on understanding dispensations, we are now under a different dispensation, and the old testament scriptures apply for us under the gospel now; that is the new covenant.  For example, Paul was admonishing the Corinthians about reading the old testament without regards to the gospel. He said in 2 Corinthians 3:13-18, "And not as Moses, which put a veil over their face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14, But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.  What this means is there are scriptures in the old testament that does not apply to us, and those that do apply to us, we must know how they apply based on the new dispensation, the new covenant, so that our minds will not be blinded by simply reading the old testament without consideration to the new testament. 

For example the scriptures you listed:

(Mat 18:32)  Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 

Under the new covenant, we are the wicked servant. This is not just true for one wicked individual, but for us all now.  We all have fallen short of the glory of God.  But God forgave us our sins, He relieved us of our debt out of his compassions for us in Christ.  

(Mat 18:33)  Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?'  This is speaking about loving others, which we don't do in the flesh under the new dispensation, but we express the love that is of the Fruit of the Spirit, given to us by the Holy Spirit.   1 John 3:24, "And he that keepth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know he abideth in us by the Spirit which he hath given us." Titus 3:5, "He saved us, not of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."

(Mat 18:34)  And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
(Mat 18:35)  "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."

If we don't walk in the love of the spirit that enables us to forgive others, not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, and if we don't have the Spirit of Christ, we are non of his. So the only thing we have coming is being delivered to the tormentors.  

It's important to understand the flesh.  If we were crucified with Christ, and if Christ lives in us, then how can our flesh be of any benefit? Meaning, how can we do what God commands in the flesh, of our own without the Spirt if we have been crucified with Christ on the cross? 

This is what some people don't understand and argue about.  But what's not understood is we are given Power by the Spirit to accomplish what God commands in the gospel.  God made provisions to give us His Spirit because He crucified us on the cross with His Son Jesus.  So, after God put the flesh to death He did not leave us without help.  He has given us His Spirt.  But we continue to struggle and do everything in the flesh, therefore, we never get the benefit of the Spirit and the Power of the Spirit in our lives.  And because people have not experience the Spirit, they argue with those who are trying to inform them how important is to walk by the Spirit and not the flesh (carnal man). 
 

People who have not experience this Power, must pray to God for understanding and ask God to give them His Spirit, because without the Spirit of Christ, which is the Holy Spirit, we can't be conformed to the person of Christ, and we will lack the Fruit of the Spirit, and we cannot be the firstfruits unto God when Christ comes back, or when we die.  We must have Christ's Spirit because when we are resurrected, the flesh (carnal nature) drops off and we are left with the Spirt of God that He gives us in our life today.   For those who are not in Christ, when they are resurrected, they are resurrected with the carnal nature still intact, and they are changed to a body that does not die, but they don't have Christ's Spirit.  In this state, they cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. 

Romans 8:9, ..."Now if any man does have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His."

In essense there is no incentive for Christians to repent of sin if disciplinary punishments do not apply to them.

Some deluded souls I have met subscribe to the false doctrine that Christians are sinless and perfect in this life, and sure enough, they sin repeatedly with profanities, rudeness, heresies, dishonesty etc., all the while denying they need to repent of anything because Christ forgave them all their sins on the Cross.

I know someone who acted presumptuously without fear of consequence, figuratively "touching the ark of the covenant", and is now paralysed and bedridden 

(1Co 11:28)  But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
(1Co 11:29)  For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
(1Co 11:30)  For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
(1Co 11:31)  For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
(1Co 11:32)  But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

[biblelesson]

16 hours ago, Michael37 said:

In essense there is no incentive for Christians to repent of sin if disciplinary punishments do not apply to them.

Some deluded souls I have met subscribe to the false doctrine that Christians are sinless and perfect in this life, and sure enough, they sin repeatedly with profanities, rudeness, heresies, dishonesty etc., all the while denying they need to repent of anything because Christ forgave them all their sins on the Cross.

I know someone who acted presumptuously without fear of consequence, figuratively "touching the ark of the covenant", and is now paralysed and bedridden 

(1Co 11:28)  But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
(1Co 11:29)  For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
(1Co 11:30)  For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
(1Co 11:31)  For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
(1Co 11:32)  But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

You said that there is no incentive for Christians to repent of sin if there is no disciplinary action. 

However, the incentive to repent is because we have accepted Christ as our savior, and know he died for our sins, and we don’t want to continue in sinful behavior because we honor Christ and what Christ did for us on the cross.  We repented of our sins when we receive Christ as our savior, and we have made a commitment to the commandments in the gospel where it tells us what behaviors we are to put off.   Put off the old man, and put on the new man.

Ephesians 4:22-24, “That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts….”  24 “And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”

And if we sin, we have an advocate who sits in heaven at the right hand of God the Father, and He makes intercessions for us.  There is no disciplinary punishment because our advocate is the one who died for our sins and covers them before our Father in Heaven.

Jesus advocate for us: 1 John 2:1, “My little children, these things I wrote unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father:  Jesus Christ the righteous.”    

Jesus makes intercessions for us: Romans 8:34, “Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God who also maketh intercession for us.

When we find ourselves struggling with sin, and may have committed a wrong, we are to go to the throne of grace for help (not expect disciplinary punishment), Hebrews 4:16, “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in a time of need.  Here we ask God to help us stop committing a sin that we find difficult to stop or change a situation that is causing us to commit a sin. 
 
Salvation is based on mercy and love.

When a Christian repents, get baptized, and accept Christ as their savior, they are coming as a sinner.  God receives the Christian in the family of God with all their faults: bad behaviors, wrong thinking, addictions, selfishness, anger, resentments, hurt from abuse, sexual immorality, blindness, idolatry, etc. etc.  These are the people who God accepts and transforms through trials.  Jesus came to save the sinner, not the saved. 

1 Timothy 1:15, “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save the sinners of whom I am chief.”

To continue to see it the way you are seeing it thinking that there must be some incentive for Christians to repent, which should be some disciplinary action is denying Christ, as if Christ was not our incentive to repent, who received the disciplinary action for us.  He shed His blood for us!  Let me say it again, He shed His blood for us.  And just in case you did not hear me, I will say it again, He shed His blood for us.  He received the discipline ONCE and for all, Romans 6:10, For in that he died, he died unto sin once, but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 

So we don’t crucify Christ afresh believing in disciplinary punishments as an incentive to repent for our sins.  We don’t fall away from the truth of what Christ did for us thinking we need repentance again.  No, we hold on to the truth of the cross and follow the gospel.  We are not to put Christ to an open shame. 

Hebrews 6:4-6, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come. 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.  It doesn’t sound like you are in this scripture.  It just seems like you don’t’ understand the gospel.  Pray for understanding. 

We don’t crucify Christ afresh by repenting, and repenting, and repenting..  We repented once, when we accepted Christ, and the sins that God accepted in His Son for us are sins that we work on in our life to Change. The gospel commandments go into great detail about what we are to do, and what we are not to do, and if we find that we are struggling, which all of us struggle, we continue to ask God for help to change the behavior.  We must have a contrite heart to want to change, even when we make a mistake.  

We go to God with a contrite humble heart and confess our wrongs, and turn over to Him the sins that we struggle with and that we are trying to overcome asking for mercy and help, but not as a form of disciplinary actions being an incentive for forgiveness, but because we honor God, fear God, and don't want to continue to commit sin in our life.   

 

[Kelly2363]

8 minutes ago, biblelesson said:

You said that there is no incentive for Christians to repent of sin if there is no disciplinary action. 

However, the incentive to repent is because we have accepted Christ as our savior, and know he died for our sins, and we don’t want to continue in sinful behavior because we honor Christ and what Christ did for us on the cross.  We repented of our sins when we receive Christ as our savior, and we have made a commitment to the commandments in the gospel where it tells us what behaviors we are to put off.   Put off the old man, and put on the new man.

Ephesians 4:22-24, “That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts….”  24 “And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”

And if we sin, we have an advocate who sits in heaven at the right hand of God the Father, and He makes intercessions for us.  There is no disciplinary punishment because our advocate is the one who died for our sins and covers them before our Father in Heaven.

Jesus advocate for us: 1 John 2:1, “My little children, these things I wrote unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father:  Jesus Christ the righteous.”    

Jesus makes intercessions for us: Romans 8:34, “Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God who also maketh intercession for us.

When we find ourselves struggling with sin, and may have committed a wrong, we are to go to the throne of grace for help (not expect disciplinary punishment), Hebrews 4:16, “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in a time of need.  Here we ask God to help us stop committing a sin that we find difficult to stop or change a situation that is causing us to commit a sin. 
 
Salvation is based on mercy and love.

When a Christian repents, get baptized, and accept Christ as their savior, they are coming as a sinner.  God receives the Christian in the family of God with all their faults: bad behaviors, wrong thinking, addictions, selfishness, anger, resentments, hurt from abuse, sexual immorality, blindness, idolatry, etc. etc.  These are the people who God accepts and transforms through trials.  Jesus came to save the sinner, not the saved. 

1 Timothy 1:15, “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save the sinners of whom I am chief.”

To continue to see it the way you are seeing it thinking that there must be some incentive for Christians to repent, which should be some disciplinary action is denying Christ, as if Christ was not our incentive to repent, who received the disciplinary action for us.  He shed His blood for us!  Let me say it again, He shed His blood for us.  And just in case you did not hear me, I will say it again, He shed His blood for us.  He received the discipline ONCE and for all, Romans 6:10, For in that he died, he died unto sin once, but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 

So we don’t crucify Christ afresh believing in disciplinary punishments as an incentive to repent for our sins.  We don’t fall away from the truth of what Christ did for us thinking we need repentance again.  No, we hold on to the truth of the cross and follow the gospel.  We are not to put Christ to an open shame. 

Hebrews 6:4-6, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come. 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.  It doesn’t sound like you are in this scripture.  It just seems like you don’t’ understand the gospel.  Pray for understanding. 

We don’t crucify Christ afresh by repenting, and repenting, and repenting..  We repented once, when we accepted Christ, and the sins that God accepted in His Son for us are sins that we work on in our life to Change. The gospel commandments go into great detail about what we are to do, and what we are not to do, and if we find that we are struggling, which all of us struggle, we continue to ask God for help to change the behavior.  We must have a contrite heart to want to change, even when we make a mistake.  

We go to God with a contrite humble heart and confess our wrongs, and turn over to Him the sins that we struggle with and that we are trying to overcome asking for mercy and help, but not as a form of disciplinary actions being an incentive for forgiveness, but because we honor God, fear God, and don't want to continue to commit sin in our life.   

 

 

You responses clearly reject any notion of discipline if that means consequences.

How do you explain what was said to which you are responding?

I know someone who acted presumptuously without fear of consequence, figuratively "touching the ark of the covenant", and is now paralysed and bedridden. 

 

[biblelesson]

4 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

 

You responses clearly reject any notion of discipline if that means consequences.

How do you explain what was said to which you are responding?

I know someone who acted presumptuously without fear of consequence, figuratively "touching the ark of the covenant", and is now paralysed and bedridden. 

 

What I have written is based on biblical truth. Jesus was disciplined for us.  However, how does one figuratively touch the ark of the covenant? There needs to be more to go on before I can find a biblical explanation.    

[Kelly2363]

20 minutes ago, biblelesson said:

What I have written is based on biblical truth. Jesus was disciplined for us.  However, how does one figuratively touch the ark of the covenant? There needs to be more to go on before I can find a biblical explanation.    

 

I see. Then how can you explain Ananias and Sapphira? What about 1 Corinthians 11:29 or what about Numbers 20:12. Who judged them? 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Kelly2363

[biblelesson]

1 hour ago, Kelly2363 said:

 

I see. Then how can you explain Ananias and Sapphira? What about 1 Corinthians 11:29 or what about Numbers 20:12. Who judged them? 

The post you are responding to was a question or comment about Christians needing disciplinary punishment as an incentive to repent, which is a response based on my original post, which states, Why would God punish us in this dispensation (New Covenant) when Christ has been punished for us?  My post is about the believer, and not non-believers.  Only if a non-believer converts, are their sins forgiven.

So, in regard to Ananias and Sapphira, we see that during that time, the Holy Spirit presence was great as Peter was converting thousands of people to Christ.  Many miracles of healing were being performed as well.  Peter did not ask Ananias why he lied to him, but why did he lie to the Holy Ghost. Acts 5:4 says Ananias lied to God. The bible tells us that the sin against the Holy Ghost cannot not be forgiven, Matthew 12:31-32.  So at the point of their lying to Holy Ghost, apparently there was no forgiveness for their sin and they were punished immediately.  

1 Corinthians 11:2 - Relates to those who are not sincere in heart, and drink of the wine and eat of the bread unworthy.  How can these people be unworthy?  They are eating of the body and blood of Christ with hearts that really did not care about Christ; they were not sincere.  They were falsely confessing Christ.  This is a lesson for many, even for myself, that I must judge myself as 1 Corinthians 11:31 says, “For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.  

Numbers 20:12 is under the old dispensation (Old Testament) and God does not deal with us in the same manner under the New Testament in Christ.  Our mistakes or sins are forgiven in Christ Jesus who is our advocate.  When we do wrong, God is faithful to forgive us, 1 John 1:9, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I will post this again:

As far as God's word is concerned, a testor must die before a testament can be of force.  
Hebrews 9:16-23, "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.  So once Christ died, the strength of the new testament became of full force to us, with the old testament being done away with having no force at all. We must look and see how does those scriptures fold over into the gospel in order for them to be of force to us. We have to be carful to follow the new and not the old. 
So base on understanding dispensations, we are now under a different dispensation, and the old testament scriptures apply for us under the gospel now; that is the new covenant.

 For example, Paul was admonishing the Corinthians about reading the old testament without regards to the gospel. He said in 2 Corinthians 3:13-18, "And not as Moses, which put a veil over their face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14, But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.  What this means is there are scriptures in the old testament that does not apply to us, and those that do apply to us, we must know how they apply based on the new dispensation, the new covenant, so that our minds will not be blinded by simply reading the old testament without consideration to the new testament. 
   

Edited September 18, 2021 by biblelesson

[Kelly2363]

3 hours ago, biblelesson said:

1 Corinthians 11:2 - Relates to those who are not sincere in heart, and drink of the wine and eat of the bread unworthy.  How can these people be unworthy?  They are eating of the body and blood of Christ with hearts that really did not care about Christ; they were not sincere.  They were falsely confessing Christ.  This is a lesson for many, even for myself, that I must judge myself as 1 Corinthians 11:31 says, “For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

 

To this, and in a sense to your whole approach - I have no doubt that the Corinthian brethren whom God judged unto sickness and death were in some real meaning lacking sincerity of heart. But what the apostle Paul said of them was that they were failing to discern the Lords' body. So their conduct was eating and drinking in a fashion in the church that was not patiently waiting for other brethren to join them so as to share with them in the breaking of bread before eating themselves. That on the face of it as an action seems very small indeed and yet it led to some of them being judged by God unto death. The same for the sin of lying against the Holy Spirit - as an action - is a small thing. The sin of Adam even though it led to the death of all humanity - as an action was no more than reaching out and receiving from his wife a small piece of fruit and eating it.

The depth of meaning is that these sins were directly against God or else they were against the body of Christ in as much as they demonstrated a lack of humility and spiritual insight for other believers - and I suppose a lack of understanding that Christ had truly paid for all the sin of the world and so they ought to discern His body. Or in the case of Ananias and Sapphira it was lying against the Holy Spirit who had led them to sell their second property to relief the burden of the churches. And in Adam' case it was directly disobeying what God had said to Him in his own hearing. You should see that this is what the Lord said to Moses and Aaron as to why they were being judged. God spoke to them both face to face on the mountain and in Moses case mouth to mouth as He pleased.

In that meaning then we should not be so swift to ask God to speak to us as many do because if He answers us directly or else speaks to us directly we will become accountable for directly disobeying God. That I believe is what it means when God speaks directly and it may amount to the same as saying when a prophet speaks also.

The churches are filled with an overflowing effect of fleshiness and carnality and God will speak to His body. When He does there will be no escape for those who hear Him - unless they utterly repent. 

[nagzie harb]

God does not do the punishing but He can take away His hedge of protection and allow Satan and or any other nation or people to do the punishing. Take Job and King David for instance.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 9/16/2021 at 6:34 PM, biblelesson said:

Without these trials that produces fruit (Fruit of the Spirit), although very painful, we would not be able to stand before Him.   

Trials do not produce the fruit of the Spirit.

We have been given the fruit of the Spirit for free by grace,
and therefore need to believe such,
and therefore exercise the fruit that we already have.

It's all about faith.

Trials happen to test our faith.

Grief and shame happens as a result of sin.

As we grow in our faith we will sin less and less,
because as believers we already have the fruit of the Spirit.