Your closest friendnt Posted October 9, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,885 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,774 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2021 44 minutes ago, Josheb said: Were the Pharisees the most righteous people in Israel? Or am I to understand that statement rhetorically? Jesus was not a Pharisee, but he could tell about the people around him...without knowing about them from the recommendation of others or the people themselves. And he compared the righteousness of his disciples with the righteousness of the Pharisees. And when he informed his disciples that the Pharisees had the highest righteousness in the Nation of Israel, higher than their righteousness, his disciples did not protestbut they said "then who could be Saved". That excluded the Pharisees and everyone else from being Saved because who could have a higher righteousness than the righteousness of the Pharisees. Jesus Christ criticizing the Pharisees he knew that his righteousness was above all and that of the Pharisees. He knew that he was talking about his own righteousness upon his obedience to die on the Cross. His own righteousness that clothes everyone who believes in him tha he died for the forgiveness of his/her sins. That's why he replied to his disciples when they said "then who will be Saved: Jesus Christ said "with God everything is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted October 9, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,885 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,774 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2021 23 minutes ago, Josheb said: I think you need to go back and re-read that text because if these comments are reference to Matthew 5:20 then Jesus did not say the Pharisees were more righteous than any other in Israel. Matthew 5:13-20 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men. You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." He did not actually say they were righteous. My dead corpse will be more righteous than the legalistic and hypocritical Pharisees of Jesus' day. Luke 18:9-14 "And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 'Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted." That Roman collaborator tax collector was more justified than the Pharisee. Matthew 23:29-33 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?" As I said previously, it is like Nic, Joe, Saul, and Gamaliel were among the crowd to whom Jesus was speaking. So help me out. What scripture is being referenced when saying Jesus said the Pharisees were the most righteous people in the nation of Israel because I can't find it. Are you willing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted October 9, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,885 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,774 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Josheb said: I think you need to go back and re-read that text because if these comments are reference to Matthew 5:20 then Jesus did not say the Pharisees were more righteous than any other in Israel. Matthew 5:13-20 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men. You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." He did not actually say they were righteous. My dead corpse will be more righteous than the legalistic and hypocritical Pharisees of Jesus' day. Luke 18:9-14 "And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 'Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted." That Roman collaborator tax collector was more justified than the Pharisee. Matthew 23:29-33 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?" As I said previously, it is like Nic, Joe, Saul, and Gamaliel were among the crowd to whom Jesus was speaking. So help me out. What scripture is being referenced when saying Jesus said the Pharisees were the most righteous people in the nation of Israel because I can't find it. "I think you need to go back and re-read that text because if these comments are reference to Matthew 5:20 then Jesus did not say the Pharisees were more righteous than any other in Israel." Thank you for pointing the scripture. I posted by memory and I said something from Mathew 5:20 and something from Mathew 19:24-26 **Mathew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mathew 19:24-26 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. **Mathew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mathew 5:1-2 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, **Jesus is teaching his disciples of how to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. and he is saying that those with the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees they shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus picked out the scribes and the Pharisees from all other groups because they were regarded as the strictest sect of everyone else in keeping the Law of Moses. He did that to emphasize that for everyone to enter the Kingdom of Heaven he would need a righteousness that exceeds or surpasses the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees. Jesus said that to point out that anyone with the righteousness which is of the Law cannot enter with that righteousness the Kingdom of Heaven. Everyone must have been wondering where and how can get hold of the righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the Law so they can get in the Kingdom of Heaven. the Scribes and the Pharisees or everyone with the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven then no one will. In Mathew 19:24-26 Jesus is teaching saying about the Kingdom of God... Mathew 19:24-26 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. **and then his disciples were asking: 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? **and Jesus Christ said: 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. And it is amazing that Paul who was not amongs the disciples of Jesus Christ but he was from one of the highest regarded sects of the order of the Pharisees sometime later after the resurrection of Jesus Christ and as a believer and as a disciple of Jesus Christ this time said exactly the same things Jesus Christ had said that time before the Cross. The testimony of Paul in Philippians 3: 4- 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted October 9, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,885 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,774 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2021 1 minute ago, Josheb said: NONE of that says the Pharisees were the most righteous people in Israel. Jesus was making comparisons with the Pharisees because the Pharisees wrongly thought they were righteous. He made comparisons with them because they were not in fact righteous; they were hypocrites! When Paul qualifies himself as a Pharisee and righteous by the terms of the law he is saying he had his bona fides as Jews see such things but he is still chief of all sinners, not righteous by faith. If righteousness could come by the law there is no need for Jesus. Galatians 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Are you willing to see this? Jesus Christ has not died yet and the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ had not been available to anyone at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted October 9, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,885 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,774 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, Josheb said: Then the Pharisees were not the most people in all of Israel. Btw, Jesus did not have to have yet died. Genesis 15:6 "Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness." Romans 4:1-5 "What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness..." Galatians 3:5-6 "Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham 'believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness'?" And I still haven't seen any scripture that states the Pharisees were righteous or that they were the most righteous people in Israel. I think I have asked five or six times. Why Jesus used the scribes and thePharisees, not just the Pharisees but the Scribes first and then the Pharisees... Jesus Christ many times said things about the Pharisees, more specific about the Pharisees who followed him and about them only and their persistence to prove Jesus Christ as not being the Messiah... Jesus Christ commended about them specific about them who plan to do him harm and were looking for a cause...their persons... Jesus Christ did not stereotype all the orders of the SCRIBES and the Pharisees after that group of people. Jesus Christ involved the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees while the Law was still in effect and not after was ended on the Cross with the beginning of the New Covenant. Just before he said that he made it clear that everyone had to obey the law toll all is fulfill. Mathew 5:. The comments Jesus Christ made about exceeding the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees were not meant to be taken by his disciples that at that time they had a righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes. Neither Jesus Christ was pointing to anyone's else righteousness... He was referring to the righteousness of God and no one at that time had the righteousness of God but himself only.... None of the disciples ever boasted that them or anyone else had a higher standard of righteousness according to the Law than the SCRIBES and the Pharisees because they were all of them followed the guidance of the Scribes of how to keep them selves blameless in keeping the Sabbath and the Law.. The Scribes were the law and policy makers this is why Jesus Christ said about them that they were sitting in the Judgment sit of Moses ...judging everyone according to their guidance of how not to offend the Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted October 9, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,885 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,774 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2021 (edited) The point Jesus Christ is making is that no one can boast that he can enter the Kingdom of Heaven with his own righteousness. Or with faith in Jesus Christ and his obedience or a righteousness that comes in ones obedience to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Only the Blood of Jesus Christ... Ones obedience is for other matters and is very important for being one of the Royal Priesthood. There is not anymore a righteousness under the Sina Covenant and not anyone a righteousness before the Law only by Circumcision. Because the Kingdom of Heaven was made available to the world at his death on the Cross. At the time of his death on the Cross everyone who was under the righteousness of the Law and under the righteousness of the Circumcision before the Law was given found them selves without the righteousness of the Law, or the righteousness of the Circumcision, they could not claim that they were under the righteousness of the Law because the Law was not in effect anymore. In other words those who were under the Law they found themselves in their sins.... That's why when they heard Peter at the day of Penticost they believe in Jesus Christ to have their sins forgiven in his blood. Peter helped them to see themselves in their sins...and they believe to have their sins forgiven in the blood of the Lamb of God. To be in the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. This is the righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the Law in times past. Because at the death of Jesus Christ there was not anymore the righteousness of the Law in the eyes of God.. Only in the Culture in the eyes of those who continue in the Law... Who were not anymore in Abraham as Abraham like John the Baptist had Joint Jesus Christ. That's all. Edited October 9, 2021 by Your closest friendnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted October 9, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.52 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2021 19 hours ago, Josheb said: If I may.... First, the exchange is slipping into personal content. Too many "you"s and "you" being used in adverse ways. Second, the exchange is also falling prey an human-centric view of scripture and not a scripture-centric view of man. I can in fact support Justin's claims and I'm not Justin. Yet you two share a lot in common theologically so I recommend that be the foundation for the conversation. When Paul, for example, plainly states the mind of flesh is hostile to God and it does not and cannot please God (Rom. 8:6) AND I know he wrote that to redeemed and regenerate believers in Christ about all people (whether regenerate or not) AND I know only the regenerate can and do have a mind of Spirit I don't look around my town to find if scripture is true as evidenced by the people of my town. I accept scripture as true and authoritative and assume any examination of the people in my town will evidence the truth of scripture, not prove it. Scripture proves them, they don't prove scripture. So, yes, I can support my statements. Yes, this is happening in the place or town where I live and it is happening in all the towns of all the world throughout all of history . Yes this is taking place in real life and if I did not provide an example it was a lapse on my part that in no way proves what I have said untruth. There aren't any examples where scripture proves untrue when scripture is correctly understood, so I am surprised you didn't practice what you preach and provide examples proving the contrary. Nicodemus is in fact described like that because he is a Pharisee and the Pharisees are described un decidedly ungodly, hostile-to-God ways. Undeniably so. Jesus did also in fact describe the people around him and those of neighboring countries this way. All have sinned and fall short of God's glory (Rom. 3:23) and when it comes to the Pharisees, Matthew 23:1-33 "Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. "But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. But the greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted. But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. [Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.] Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.' You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold? And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.' You blind men, which is more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering? Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it. And whoever swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it. "And whoever swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?" That's pretty harsh. Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, Saul of Tarsus and Gamaliel were probably in attendance that day. Jesus was speaking to them about them. There are many places in the gospels and epistolary like this. Tons of them in the prophets. It'll be better for Sodom and Gomorrah than it will be for those guys. Lastly, Justin was quoting scripture but he did not provide the references, so when calling into question the contents of the post the net result is a questioning of scripture's veracity. He was quoting from Romans 8:6-8, John 3:3-20, John 14:17, and 1 Cor. 2:12-14.* I wonder if the sinfulness of humanity is fully understood. Can I see some evidence of those claims? I wonder why examples weren't provided. Carry on. *I might have some of that wrong because I did it from memory but those statements of his are right straight out of scripture; they're just uncited. Umm... thanks, I think; but I'm not Justin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly2363 Posted October 9, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 579 Content Per Day: 0.57 Reputation: 303 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/02/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2021 1 minute ago, David1701 said: Umm... thanks, I think; but I'm not Justin. No you are not Justin. But Justin nevertheless gave him the thumbs up to his comment to you at page 19 comment 4. What is said behind the veil is whispered in the open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waggles Posted October 9, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,790 Content Per Day: 0.77 Reputation: 983 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2021 @Amigo42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted October 10, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,885 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,774 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 10, 2021 3 hours ago, Waggles said: @Amigo42 What is the message for discussion? And the supporting scriptures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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