Nanners Posted September 2, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 116 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/18/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/17/1968 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Oh, that's mature. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Its highly immature, but its the level of debate I engage with with many creationists (though not, to any real level, here). Well, thats not quite accurate. Thats what their arguments often fall back to, ad hominems. Perhaps its hard to notice for you, but so many of the arguments on this board (if not all) are logical fallacies. Ian <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ian- Since you have such a brilliant logical mind... How do you account for all the disciples that were will (and did) die for proclaiming what they saw in the empty tomb and later Jesus' appearances after death? If it was a conspiracy or fallacy as you put it, then the truth would have come out before now! Just look at the watergate scandal as an example. The truth is always revealed. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halifaxchristian Posted September 2, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 722 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/01/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted September 2, 2005 Oh, that's mature. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Its highly immature, but its the level of debate I engage with with many creationists (though not, to any real level, here). Well, thats not quite accurate. Thats what their arguments often fall back to, ad hominems. Perhaps its hard to notice for you, but so many of the arguments on this board (if not all) are logical fallacies. Ian <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ian- Since you have such a brilliant logical mind... How do you account for all the disciples that were will (and did) die for proclaiming what they saw in the empty tomb and later Jesus' appearances after death? If it was a conspiracy or fallacy as you put it, then the truth would have come out before now! Just look at the watergate scandal as an example. The truth is always revealed. Period. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> People were killed for proclaiming what they saw in an empty tomb? What would be in an empty tomb... air? So people were killed for claiming they saw air? Sorry, couldn't help that one! But seriously, the stories of Jesus' appearances are conflicting at best. The fact that at some point after the event, someone wrote down what they were told by someone else in a time when they believed the world was flat and that they resided at the center of the earth and that the sun revolved around the earth and all the other superstitions and lack of understanding that existed some 2000+ years ago, is not what I would call convincing evidence. You have to remember that word of mouth was the way news, history and stories were passed around and we all know how the game works where you pass a story around the campfire amonst 6 people. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I answered your questions about your accusations that the Bible says the world is flat, etc. Did you not see that post??? Please read Isaiah 40:22 if you have a Bible around, if you didn't see it. How do you say that the resurrection accounts conflict with each other? Please start a new post if you genuinely want to deal with this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halifaxchristian Posted September 2, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 722 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/01/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted September 2, 2005 Just think of all those people who lived between the time Jesus was crucified and the Bible was written. I wonder what they believed in... How could they possibly have faith in God without the Bible to tell them. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They had the Old Testament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halifaxchristian Posted September 2, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 722 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/01/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted September 2, 2005 In order to be an intelligent human being you can a) believe what God tells you through inspired scripture that has been around for 2000+ years b) believe what Scientific atheist believes to be true. I choose God. Reword that a second. a) Believe what was written by superstitious bronze and stone age men, whilst ignoring the many other sacred texts from that time, earlier or later. b) Believe what current evidence shows, and what the scientific method has given us. Your a) is based upon faith that what was written was true, because it says it is, and is also an appeal to tradition (a fallacy), and I would guess argumentum ad populum, too. Ian <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Modern science does not disagree with the Bible in any respects...and I still have not seen proof of that on this forum. Please alarm me if I am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work in Progress Posted September 3, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,111 Content Per Day: 0.39 Reputation: 35 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted September 3, 2005 You have to remember that word of mouth was the way news, history and stories were passed around and we all know how the game works where you pass a story around the campfire amonst 6 people. Foglight, it was different then than it is today. Then, it wasn't simply a game of 'telephone'. The facts that were passed down from generation to generation back then were much more credible than that. I studied that process at one time and it was very interesting. Nevertheless, can I ask why you are here at Worthy? It seems you have no desire to accept the beliefs put forth on this site, but only to constantly refute them and prove them wrong. It's interesting that you feel you can accomplish that, even after all this time and fruitless effort. I'm just curious as to what the attraction is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work in Progress Posted September 3, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,111 Content Per Day: 0.39 Reputation: 35 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted September 3, 2005 Who is denouncing God? Christ said: "You are either for me or against me." Which are you? You are classified as "undecided". In Christ's words, you are against Him. Christ made it clear that He and God the Father are one and the same. Seems like you are denouncing Him to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerioke Posted September 3, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 97 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,850 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/11/1911 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Who is denouncing God? Christ said: "You are either for me or against me." Which are you? You are classified as "undecided". In Christ's words, you are against Him. Christ made it clear that He and God the Father are one and the same. Seems like you are denouncing Him to me. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My mistake. I was talking about God, and you are referring to the bible. Two different things. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So you have your own personal God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ringo Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Absolutely, Positively, NO!!! Why? Salvation is one thing and one thing only - it is SEEING God! Seeing God doesn't have a thing in the world to do with the variety of apologetic issues so voraciously debated in our modern culture (and in history). Now, the man or woman who possesses the Spirit will invariably come to the right conclusions (in this life or the next), but that will occur BECAUSE of salvation; not as a necessary step unto it! I, for one, believe the Bible. But, if someone was able to prove that a great portion of the Bible was innacurate, that wouldn't have a thing in the world to do with my FAITH! My faith is in the unseen WORD of God. That WORD has been seen by mighty men and women of God through the centuries, and those in the first century or so wrote about it (the New Testament). I recognize the WORD when I read the Bible, but the WORD is something spiritual; it is quite literally the manifestation of God in the spirit. That WORD (Jesus), took on flesh, but we don't see Him in the flesh anymore. As Jn. 14 says, He now appears to us in the spirit. We see him, but the world can't see him. Because we see him, we LIVE! Glory!! (We live because the resurrection life of God causes the mortal within us to be clothed upon with immortality! 1 Cor. 15) Glory again!!! I understand the sentiment that some hold when they say things to the effect that if you can't believe the whole Bible, then you can't believe any of it. That's fine. But, what these people don't realize is that they are attributing the writings of men to the integrity of God. It's not the same thing. Men (or women) wrote as they were inspired of the Holy Spirit. Hence, we call these writings scripture. However, they are still the words of men. God didn't come out of the heavens and write these things with his finger. Additionally, we have centuries of men (or women) debating over the translation of the scriptures and the appropriate books to be included in the cannon we have today. These issues can cause one to see that the Bible, born of pure and unadulterated light, can be filtered through imperfect vessels. Since we are on this topic: What does it mean for a man or woman's heart to be inspired of the Holy Spirit as they write? Does this mean that they are hearing sentence by sentence out of the heavens from God? Or, does it mean that to some degree or another, they are filled with the spirit of God, and in this light they are able to judge and discern all things properly. I believe the latter. So, when you consider the latter, the inspiration men had is perfect, but the definitions (e.g., the words they wrote) MAY be imperfect. Even the Bible confesses of itself that now we see as in a glass darkly ... I don't offer these words to be contentious or divisive. If one chooses to believe in the inerrancy of the Bible (and I don't necessarily disbelieve that), then so be it. What's important, whether one believes in inerrancy or not, is that he or she is coming into the the Jn 17:3 type of eternal life, which is the intimate knowledge of God. It is the precious communion with God that is the great Hope we are offered in the scriptures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halifaxchristian Posted September 3, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 722 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/01/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted September 3, 2005 The unseen word of God? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Huh??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halifaxchristian Posted September 3, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 722 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/01/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted September 3, 2005 Sorry ringo...but the Bible issue...it's all or nothing. But don't be dismayed...it's true from start to finish. I haven't seen any proof otherwise in all my years. I'm only 25...but that's still a long time kinda!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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