Who is the Little Horn of Daniel 8? Can this be linked with the Little Horn in Daniel 7?

[Charlie744]

5 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

If we just go back a little bit...i would like to dissect this quote from you: 

The little horn comes out of the 4th kingdom after the Stone strikes the feet of the image. After the Cross, pagan Rome would begin to deteriorate and weaken and the pagan side would be replaced by the papal side. This is when the 'little horn' will arise from and take power. 

 

1. We have the 4th kingdom Rome from which the little horn arises

2. you state, this rise of the little horn happens after the stone strikes the feet

 

In the context of the above 2 statements, you are claiming the stone striking the feet is, or begins with, the Incarnation of Jesus?

It all starts of course with the 4th kingdom which begins with the iron legs -  pagan Rome. There is no activity until we move down to the feet - this is where all the action occurs. From this point we can cover 2.000 years. The feet and the toes are sitting there minding their own business until a Stone is hurled at them and breaks them apart. This Stone is of course the Messiah who 'DIVIDES' the kingdom. Charlie

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

ok so i think i am starting to follow you now...

 

44In the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will shatter all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, but will itself stand forever. 

So the key that you are using is

 

1. "in the days of those kings" 

Yes

2 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

2. God will setup a kingdom that will never be destroyed

Yes

2 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

so the incarnation of Jesus is the commencement of your position because that even falls within the days of the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2.

Yes

2 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

This is a really interesting perspective and i think i am following you now. I have a question though, isnt this the same position that the Jews for centuries had and mistakenly assumed this meant the messiah was come to defeat the Romans and setup an earthly kingdom.

Well, I am aware they definitely were anticipating the soon coming of the Messiah but they were expecting the God that would perform miracles and powers during the time of Moses. He would destroy the Romans just as quickly as He did to the Egyptians crossing the Red Sea. They could not possibly consider a meek, plain man coming on a donkey.

2 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

I realise that the answer to this question could be that the metaphor was taken literally and it was a heavenly kingdom. The issue i have with this is that one would be forced to deny AD 70 in order to defeat my question and prevent the literal interpretation of the Jewish position. Also, if we then go for the heavenly kingdom, how do we then reconcile that its quite clear that God is not setting up his heavenly kingdom until after the persecution of the saints according to the timeline in the book of Revelation (particularly in light of the signs we are given such as dark days, stars falling from heaven etc). 

Sorry, I am not following you here. I am probably not able to concentrate on this right now... Once the Messiah completed His mission, one could do whatever they wanted with the Temple, the vessels, the sacrificial system... it all became absolutely meaningless after the Cross. They could  paint the Temple orange it would not matter.. it would never again be a HOLY Place or house the Presence of God... it was now and forever a building.  Charlie

[adamjedgar]

Can you provide me with a Dropbox/Google drive/OneDrive link to your writings on this so I can download a copy?

I would really like to read your position on this in depth.

(Otherwise I can enable an account on my webserver linked with a WordPress website that you could upload it to as an article.

Edited December 9, 2021 by adamjedgar

[Diaste]

Why Rome? Or Papal Rome or pagan Rome? 

I see Babylon, Medo-Persia, and the Greek of Alexander in Daniel. I don't see Rome identified anywhere in the 12 chapters. 

I do see an allusion to a person that commits the A of D in 9 and 11. From history we see that person was Antiochus IV. A grandson of Seleucus Nicator. 

Daniel 11 begins by retelling 2 and 8 in a 3-verse synopsis stating the Grecian Empire is parceled out to four regions which would be ruled by the 4 notable horns of chapter 8. We know that happened, the regions and the ones who ruled the regions.

Twice scripture tells us the little horn arises from one of the four notable horns ruling over the 4 regions. None are Rome. 

More accurately 8 says it's a little horn from the 4 notable horns, 11 says the mighty king, Alexander of Macedonia, will lose his kingdom and it will be given to others. But in this we know from chapter 8 a little horn arises from one of these. That means our choices for the rise of the little horn are: Greece, Asia Minor, Egypt or Mesopotamia. 

Then 11 goes on to immediately begin a narrative concerning the king of the north and the king of the south. That's Antigonus of Asia Minor and Egypt's Ptolemy. Wars which did happen as we can see from history.

These are not Rome, papal, pagan or Empire.

I concede I do see Rome in one place in chapter 11. 

"At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time will not be like the first. 30Ships of Kittimg will come against him, and he will lose heart. "

Antiochus was confronted by Roman legions in 169 BC. If memory serves Antiochus was on his way to sack Alexandria when stopped by the Romans. Egypt had called on Rome for help and they arrived in time to turn back the folly of Antiochus IV. 

On his return trip to Damascus Antiochus laid waste to the Temple and Israel. All recorded in history, and all fulfilled right up to Dan 11:31. Maybe as far as v 33.

By as often as I hear about Rome as the main character in the fulfillment of a hundred prophetic utterances, I don't see Rome anywhere, except for Dan 11:29-30.

It's been pointed the end time beast is also called the Assyrian. This fits in with the narrative of Dan 11 which follows the future acts of the king of the north and the king of the south. Now whether one believes the king of the north to be the region ruled by the Assyrians, or modern-day Syria, or even Asia Minor, the fact both are Mesopotamian, and the same region was the Empire of the Seleucids, should point us in that direction for the answer and not toward the Mediterranean and Europe. 

Another regional aspect that really stands out for me is the seat of power for Babylon, Medo-Persia and, Greece...all had their powerbase centered in Mesopotamia, specifically the city of Babylon. 

Because of all the above I don't see end of the age truths, manifestation and events concerning the identity and acts of the little horn finding fulfillment outside of Mesopotamia.

 

[adamjedgar]

you have to go to Daniel 2 to get the 4 kingdoms that are to follow.

In Daniel 2 they are as follows:

1. Babylon

2. Medo-persia

3. Greece (the first mention of the Little Horn, however, does not have eyes or mouth)

4. Rome (pagan, then papal. Here the little horn has eyes and a mouth and speaks out against the most high)

 

The other prophecies in Daniel follow the outline setout in Daniel 2. 

In Daniel 7 we see a change in the way in which the future kingdoms are illustrated...they are now individual/unique beasts rather than metals/clay kingdoms forming a statue.

Daniel 8 we see a focus/zooming in of the Greek kingdom and the idea of the little horn starts here.

What i find really interesting is that in the vision of Daniel 7, we have bear and leopard. However, Daniel 8 exchanges the beasts of medo-persia (bear) and greece (leopard) for a ram and a goat. Also note that both of these are animals with horns. I find this change puzzling. Its probable that this is to illustrate that the idea of the little horn starts much earlier than papal Rome and i tend to agree with that as it does seem to fit with the change in the type of animals found in Daniel 8.

Another significant or interesting observation about the two animals in Daniel 8, unlike the predatory bear and leopard in Daniel 7 (1st year of Belshazzar), in Daniel 8 (3rd year of Belshazzar) they are both prey animals (ram and goat). That is surely an important revelation given to Daniel 2 years later?

Edited December 9, 2021 by adamjedgar

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

Can you provide me with a Dropbox/Google drive/OneDrive link to your writings on this so I can download a copy?

I would really like to read your position on this in depth.

(Otherwise I can enable an account on my webserver linked with a WordPress website that you could upload it to as an article.

Adam, I am so sorry but as I mentioned, I am attempting to complete a serious commentary on Daniel that essentially provides no less than 30 new interpretations against “today’s accepted interpretations”. 

Once again, they are ALL using an historical approach- trying to match Daniel’s verses TO OUR HISTORY BOOKS. You will NEVER interpret Daniel that way which is why it has yet to be remotely interpreted. Which obviously means their findings which are used in Revelation are ....

Daniel is not a history book but a prophetic writing from God that He has decided to run through these 4 kingdoms. But everyone makes THEM the story. Here is something ironic and so telling- the book of Daniel is about the coming Messiah and His Plan for mankind’s salvation- show me in almost ALL of the accepted interpretations where He His revealed? Almost ALL have even taken Him completely out of Daniel by claiming the ‘he’ in chapter 9 is the A/C... 

So I apologize but I must finish my commentary and see if it can be published. I know that 95% of my interpretations are contrary to anything currently out there that have been accepted... I am quite comfortable with the study and the new interpretations. Charlie 

[Charlie744]

5 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

you have to go to Daniel 2 to get the 4 kingdoms that are to follow.

In Daniel 2 they are as follows:

1. Babylon

2. Medo-persia

3. Greece (the first mention of the Little Horn, however, does not have eyes or mouth)

4. Rome (pagan, then papal. Here the little horn has eyes and a mouth and speaks out against the most high)

 

The other prophecies in Daniel follow the outline setout in Daniel 2. 

In Daniel 7 we see a change in the way in which the future kingdoms are illustrated...they are now individual/unique beasts rather than metals/clay kingdoms forming a statue.

Daniel 8 we see a focus/zooming in of the Greek kingdom and the idea of the little horn starts here.

What i find really interesting is that in the vision of Daniel 7, we have bear and leopard. However, Daniel 8 exchanges the beasts of medo-persia (bear) and greece (leopard) for a ram and a goat. Also note that both of these are animals with horns. I find this change puzzling. Its probable that this is to illustrate that the idea of the little horn starts much earlier than papal Rome and i tend to agree with that as it does seem to fit with the change in the type of animals found in Daniel 8.

Another significant or interesting observation about the two animals in Daniel 8, unlike the predatory bear and leopard in Daniel 7 (1st year of Belshazzar), in Daniel 8 (3rd year of Belshazzar) they are both prey animals (ram and goat). That is surely an important revelation given to Daniel 2 years later?

Adam, I will respond to this in the AM.. 

BTW, what part of the world are you at? 

Charlie

[adamjedgar]

9 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Adam, I will respond to this in the AM.. 

BTW, what part of the world are you at? 

Charlie

Melbourne Victoria (well actually i live about 15min west of Tullamarine airport actually)

 

I think i have resolved my puzzle about the changing of the predatory animals in Daniel 7 to prey animals in Daniel 8.

 

If we look at the change from the grand statue of Daniel 2 to the beasts in Daniel 7, the explanation for this change is very very simple. 

The grand awesome statue is what man sees...

The predatory beasts coming up out of the sea are what God sees.

So if we then look forward to the Daniel 8 description of the prey animals (Ram and Goat), I think this has parallels in the antichrist in that he pretends to be a prey animal and appears this way to future mankind, but is in fact a beast (what God seas in Daniel 7)!

Edited December 9, 2021 by adamjedgar

[adamjedgar]

I also found this description from a google search (not sure of the denomination). It provides an very interesting take on why the book of Revelation joins the city of Babylon with the little horn (whom we normally associate with Rome...a long way from Babylon!)

So, when the ram and the he-goat stand before each other we have ponderosity verses agility and that was exactly the case when Alexander came with his forces across the Hellespont and attacked Darius and after three battles, one at Granicus, one at Issus, and then the last at Arbela (also called by other names.) Alexander became the ruler of the world. Alexander pushed on toward the east and even went as far as India, but finally his armies became tired. He came back to Babylon and established his empire there or headquarters there, I should say, which incidentally is of significance for biblical prophecy because in the Book of Revelation, Babylon again will be one of the important features of the last days, and this antichrist is identified with Babylon. But anyway he established his kingdom, his headquarters in Babylon and thereafter a short time just after he had come to world dominion he expired from marsh fever, and probably also dissipation. Alexander was one of the greatest of the world emperors, not only a many of tremendous energy, but also a man of tremendous intelligence. Unusual for world emperors and unusual for Presidents in these days as well. https://sljinstitute.net/the-prophets/daniel/the-interpretation-of-the-ram-and-he-goat-vision/

The significance of Alexander establishing his headquaters in Babylon...That was the very place where the statue of daniel 2 has its origins!

Edited December 9, 2021 by adamjedgar

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

Melbourne Victoria (well actually i live about 15min west of Tullamarine airport actually)

 

I think i have resolved my puzzle about the changing of the predatory animals in Daniel 7 to prey animals in Daniel 8.

 

If we look at the change from the grand statue of Daniel 2 to the beasts in Daniel 7, the explanation for this change is very very simple. 

The grand awesome statue is what man sees...

The predatory beasts coming up out of the sea are what God sees.

So if we then look forward to the Daniel 8 description of the prey animals (Ram and Goat), I think this has parallels in the antichrist in that he pretends to be a prey animal and appears this way to future mankind, but is in fact a beast (what God seas in Daniel 7)!

Does chapter 7 speak to the ‘kingdoms’ while chapter 8 speaks to the ‘rulers or powers’? 

In your earlier post, about 20 minutes ago, you said the first mention of the little horn was in the 3rd kingdom of Greece (chapter 2).  Please give me the verses you are pulling that from... 

Oh, sorry for my ignorance- that is Melbourne, Australia not Melbourne in Florida right ? Charlie