Who is the Little Horn of Daniel 8? Can this be linked with the Little Horn in Daniel 7?

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

I also found this description from a google search (not sure of the denomination). It provides an very interesting take on why the book of Revelation joins the city of Babylon with the little horn (whom we normally associate with Rome...a long way from Babylon!)

So, when the ram and the he-goat stand before each other we have ponderosity verses agility and that was exactly the case when Alexander came with his forces across the Hellespont and attacked Darius and after three battles, one at Granicus, one at Issus, and then the last at Arbela (also called by other names.) Alexander became the ruler of the world. Alexander pushed on toward the east and even went as far as India, but finally his armies became tired. He came back to Babylon and established his empire there or headquarters there, I should say, which incidentally is of significance for biblical prophecy because in the Book of Revelation, Babylon again will be one of the important features of the last days, and this antichrist is identified with Babylon. But anyway he established his kingdom, his headquarters in Babylon and thereafter a short time just after he had come to world dominion he expired from marsh fever, and probably also dissipation. Alexander was one of the greatest of the world emperors, not only a many of tremendous energy, but also a man of tremendous intelligence. Unusual for world emperors and unusual for Presidents in these days as well. https://sljinstitute.net/the-prophets/daniel/the-interpretation-of-the-ram-and-he-goat-vision/

Babylon in Revelation is not a literal Babylon- figurative. 

[adamjedgar]

Just now, Charlie744 said:

Babylon in Revelation is not a literal Babylon- figurative. 

yes that is of course true, however, the point is...why did God choose to associate the city of Babylon (or its name) with the antichrist if, as some denominations claim, the little horn arises from Rome? One would expect that the city of choice used in the book of Revelation would be Rome...but its not. Clearly Babylon is important and we now know why!

The interesting thing about Babylon, it was also prophesied that this city would be punished as a result of the captivity of the Israelites. 

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

yes that is of course true, however, the point is...why did God choose to associate the city of Babylon (or its name) with the antichrist if, as some denominations claim, the little horn arises from Rome? One would expect that the city of choice used in the book of Revelation would be Rome...but its not. Clearly Babylon is important and we now know why!

The interesting thing about Babylon, it was also prophesied that this city would be punished as a result of the captivity of the Israelites. 

I will hope to have the chance to ask God that question, but Babylon was (I believe) the location where Babel was - Nimrod wanted to build a city reaching the heavens ... 

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, Diaste said:

Why Rome? Or Papal Rome or pagan Rome? 

I see Babylon, Medo-Persia, and the Greek of Alexander in Daniel. I don't see Rome identified anywhere in the 12 chapters. 

I do see an allusion to a person that commits the A of D in 9 and 11. From history we see that person was Antiochus IV. A grandson of Seleucus Nicator. 

Daniel 11 begins by retelling 2 and 8 in a 3-verse synopsis stating the Grecian Empire is parceled out to four regions which would be ruled by the 4 notable horns of chapter 8. We know that happened, the regions and the ones who ruled the regions.

Twice scripture tells us the little horn arises from one of the four notable horns ruling over the 4 regions. None are Rome. 

More accurately 8 says it's a little horn from the 4 notable horns, 11 says the mighty king, Alexander of Macedonia, will lose his kingdom and it will be given to others. But in this we know from chapter 8 a little horn arises from one of these. That means our choices for the rise of the little horn are: Greece, Asia Minor, Egypt or Mesopotamia. 

Then 11 goes on to immediately begin a narrative concerning the king of the north and the king of the south. That's Antigonus of Asia Minor and Egypt's Ptolemy. Wars which did happen as we can see from history.

These are not Rome, papal, pagan or Empire.

I concede I do see Rome in one place in chapter 11. 

"At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time will not be like the first. 30Ships of Kittimg will come against him, and he will lose heart. "

Antiochus was confronted by Roman legions in 169 BC. If memory serves Antiochus was on his way to sack Alexandria when stopped by the Romans. Egypt had called on Rome for help and they arrived in time to turn back the folly of Antiochus IV. 

On his return trip to Damascus Antiochus laid waste to the Temple and Israel. All recorded in history, and all fulfilled right up to Dan 11:31. Maybe as far as v 33.

By as often as I hear about Rome as the main character in the fulfillment of a hundred prophetic utterances, I don't see Rome anywhere, except for Dan 11:29-30.

It's been pointed the end time beast is also called the Assyrian. This fits in with the narrative of Dan 11 which follows the future acts of the king of the north and the king of the south. Now whether one believes the king of the north to be the region ruled by the Assyrians, or modern-day Syria, or even Asia Minor, the fact both are Mesopotamian, and the same region was the Empire of the Seleucids, should point us in that direction for the answer and not toward the Mediterranean and Europe. 

Another regional aspect that really stands out for me is the seat of power for Babylon, Medo-Persia and, Greece...all had their powerbase centered in Mesopotamia, specifically the city of Babylon. 

Because of all the above I don't see end of the age truths, manifestation and events concerning the identity and acts of the little horn finding fulfillment outside of Mesopotamia.

 

Hi Diaste,

A really good post there bro. 

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

[adamjedgar]

42 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

you realise that this is a "re-creation" of just the city entry dont you. It is not the real city fully rebuilt. This image is outside the archaeological dig which has exposed some of the ruins of the old city.

Edited December 9, 2021 by adamjedgar

[adamjedgar]

50 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Diaste,

A really good post there bro. 

regards, Marilyn.

May i just enlighten you a tiny bit...perhaps you might do well to go back a few chapters in the book of daniel to the original statue...Chapter 2. That is where most definately you will see the four kingdoms: (i have numbered them from 1-4 just to make it easy for those who have trouble counting)

1. babylon - verse 37

2. medo-persia - verse 39, first half

3. greece - verse  39, second half

4. rome - verse 40 

 

the mixed or divided kingdoms are the feet of iron and clay...verse 41

 

Now just to help with the understanding of the claim the name "rome" isnt mentioned...i would urge you to use some common sense here and read your history (as even secular history agrees with the bible on the nations that ruled the world after Babylon). It is a straw man argument to claim Rome isnt mentioned!

 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by adamjedgar

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, adamjedgar said:

you realise that this is a "re-creation" of just the city entry dont you. It is not the real city fully rebuilt. This image is outside the archaeological dig which has exposed some of the ruins of the old city.

Yes I do, however years on the UN and the USA have rebuilt the ancient parts of Babylon and it is becoming a major historical tourist attraction. All the infrastructure to support the great influx of people is being built. 

Look on utube for some more detail. 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, adamjedgar said:

May i just enlighten you a tiny bit...perhaps you might do well to go back a few chapters in the book of daniel to the original statue...Chapter 2. That is where most definately you will see the four kingdoms: (i have numbered them from 1-4 just to make it easy for those who have trouble counting)

1. babylon - verse 37

2. medo-persia - verse 39, first half

3. greece - verse  39, second half

4. rome - verse 40 

 

the mixed or divided kingdoms are the feet of iron and clay...verse 41

 

Now just to help with the understanding of the claim the name "rome" isnt mentioned...i would urge you to use some common sense here and read your history (as even secular history agrees with the bible on the nations that ruled the world after Babylon). It is a straw man argument to claim Rome isnt mentioned!

 

 

It isn`t mentioned however history has show this. However God judged the Roman government and it cannot arise again. The land and people live there but that is NOT the Roman Empire. 

[adamjedgar]

Charlie,

I have managed to get in touch with and talk with Dad about your previous statement about Daniel 2:44.

I have a question...

In verse 32-35, the statue appears to me to be complete and free standing.

32The head of the statue was pure gold, its chest and arms were silver, its belly and thighs were bronze, 33its legs were iron, and its feet were part iron and part clay.

the stone comes down and strikes this "complete" statue and shatters it such that the wind carries all of the crushed dust away...

35Then the iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold were shattered and became like chaff on the threshing floor in summer. The wind carried them away, and not a trace of them could be found.

We know that the description of the iron and potters clay is illustrating divided kingdoms...some being strong and others weak. This cannot be the Roman empire at the time of Jesus incarnation...it was an empirical dictatorship for hundreds of years after the death of Jesus.

If the statue is complete prior to the stone (which is obviously Christ) hitting and destroying it, how do you reconcile the division of the feet being part iron and part clay did not happen until well after that time period in history? 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by adamjedgar