Who will represent God during the Tribulation Period?

[JohnR7]

Those who believe in a pre trib rapture believe that the church will no longer be on the earth. They believe that the "Jewish" people will represent God on the earth during this time. They are getting ready for that now in that I see them putting videos on youtube and they are writting books. They have private teaching for their own people but they also have teaching for everyone including the gentiles and whoever is interested to study and learn their "logic & reason". Some of this is very interesting and some of it is clearly not christian beliefs or teaching. 

[missmuffet]

There will be the 144,000 who are the 12 tribes of Israel, those who become Christian during the 7 years and the two witnesses. 

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

Those who believe in a pre trib rapture believe that the church will no longer be on the earth. They believe that the "Jewish" people will represent God on the earth during this time. They are getting ready for that now in that I see them putting videos on youtube and they are writting books. They have private teaching for their own people but they also have teaching for everyone including the gentiles and whoever is interested to study and learn their "logic & reason". Some of this is very interesting and some of it is clearly not christian beliefs or teaching. 

 

10 hours ago, missmuffet said:

There will be the 144,000 who are the 12 tribes of Israel, those who become Christian during the 7 years and the two witnesses. 

Consider the situation on earth in 2nd Thessalonians 2. Paul is writing to a Church. Because the persecution in Thessaloniki was so hot and heavy, they thought that the Great Tribulation, which Paul taught in his brief 3 weeks in Thessaloniki, had started. Two conditions are given the Thessalonian saints as proof of that the Great Tribulation had not started. Here is the text and the two conditions

¹ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, ² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. ³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. ⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? ⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. ⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

1. There must be a falling away. Now, the Greek word is normally translated “apostasy”. It means that something with a high position degrades to a low position. The Jews reject Christ and are under God’s chastisement, and the Nations are enemies of God and His Christ. Both their positions cannot be lower. That leaves only the Church that can “apostate” itself. The main sign of the approaching Tribulation is an apostate Church in which God looks, not for reformation, but for individual “Overcomers”
2. The man of sin must be revealed. The Beast is one of five kings who was dead at John’s time of writing Revelation. He is also the eighth. That is why he comes out of the Abyss. He is a king who ruled, died and is allowed to be resurrected. Since his past is Rome of Paul’s time, he will need to prove himself before the ten kings give them their power. This is his “revealing”. That is, he will have a period of time before the last 7 years starts when he gathers a reputation.

Now, according to Matthew 13 the end of this age is a harvest, and the only company we find as fruit and which were “redeemed from the earth” are the Firstfruits of Revelation 14. Thus, when these are “redeemed from the earth” and stand before the throne, the earth is left with;

1. a Church that was salt but has now lost its flavor
2. Israel who hate Christ and embrace the Beast
3. The Nations who put the Beast in power

Who will preach the gospel? If it is advanced that those of the Church left behind will turn and preach the gospel, I submit that they are defeated by the Beast (Rev.13:7). If it is submitted that a remnant of Israel will turn to Christ, I submit that there is no such scripture and that their unbelief and blindness and hardness remains until the Gentile rule is over. If it is submitted that the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 preach the gospel, I submit that men who bring fire and plagues down on their enemies are not preaching the gospel.

I therefore submit that the gospel age is over by the time the Beast starts the last 7 years of Daniel 9. If it is submitted that the angel in “mid-heaven” preaches the gospel, I answer that that is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. Here is the text from Revelation 14;

⁶ And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, ⁷ Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

All possibilities are closed. There is no gospel of peace and reconciliation concerning Jesus preached on earth once the 7 years begin. And without a preacher - no one is saved (Rom.10:14)

Edited December 13, 2021 by AdHoc
grammar

[AdHoc]

12 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

Those who believe in a pre trib rapture believe that the church will no longer be on the earth. They believe that the "Jewish" people will represent God on the earth during this time. They are getting ready for that now in that I see them putting videos on youtube and they are writting books. They have private teaching for their own people but they also have teaching for everyone including the gentiles and whoever is interested to study and learn their "logic & reason". Some of this is very interesting and some of it is clearly not christian beliefs or teaching. 

According to Daniel's 9th, Israel embrace the Beast. Added to this, Romans 11 says that Israel's blindness and unbelief last right up till the time of the fullness of the Gentiles. It would seem as if Israel will do the opposite to represent God. They shun, nay, even hate Messiah and break the fundamental Laws by worshiping a mere man. But God is not left without representation:

1. His Two Witnesses in Jerusalem testify the 1260 days of the great Tribulation

2. An angel in mid-heaven preaches the "everlasting gospel" - worship God the Creator, or else ...

3. The Remnant promised i Romans 9 and 11 will keep the Law. Romans 11 says that "all Israel will be saved". The word "saved" means; "the removal of, or the removal from a threat that will have dire consequences". According to the context, the word "saved" in the Bible means "saved" from various things. For instance, Daniel was "saved" from the lions, but not from the Chaldeans. He was taken captive along with the rest - never to return to Promised Land. "All Israel saved" means what the prophets foretold - not of Israel embracing the Messiah, but of a National Restoration to their Land, safety, prosperity and favor with Emmanuel Who would live among them. For this "salvation" to take place God set forth the condition that Israel turn back to the Law (Deut.30:1-5).

The 144,000 of Revelation 7 do not embrace Christ, as another poster asserts. They are those who are kept from hurt and who keep the Law to fulfill Deuteronomy 30:1-5. We find them again in Revelation 12 - the seed of the Woman, "who keep the commandments of God".

[JohnR7]

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

They shun, nay, even hate Messiah

They are still waiting for the Messiah to appear. They accept the teachings of Jesus. They just do not make any public confession and they trace His teachings back to people that came before Him. 

[truth7t7]

16 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

They are still waiting for the Messiah to appear. They accept the teachings of Jesus. They just do not make any public confession and they trace His teachings back to people that came before Him. 

The Jews/Judaism is looking for a Messish and they will be ripe and ready to receive the future false messiah in Jerusalem, Daniel's (Little Horn) John's (The Beast)

Edited December 14, 2021 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

On 12/13/2021 at 6:29 AM, AdHoc said:

According to Daniel's 9th, Israel embrace the Beast. Added to this, Romans 11 says that Israel's blindness and unbelief last right up till the time of the fullness of the Gentiles. It would seem as if Israel will do the opposite to represent God. They shun, nay, even hate Messiah and break the fundamental Laws by worshiping a mere man. But God is not left without representation:

1. His Two Witnesses in Jerusalem testify the 1260 days of the great Tribulation

2. An angel in mid-heaven preaches the "everlasting gospel" - worship God the Creator, or else ...

3. The Remnant promised i Romans 9 and 11 will keep the Law. Romans 11 says that "all Israel will be saved". The word "saved" means; "the removal of, or the removal from a threat that will have dire consequences". According to the context, the word "saved" in the Bible means "saved" from various things. For instance, Daniel was "saved" from the lions, but not from the Chaldeans. He was taken captive along with the rest - never to return to Promised Land. "All Israel saved" means what the prophets foretold - not of Israel embracing the Messiah, but of a National Restoration to their Land, safety, prosperity and favor with Emmanuel Who would live among them. For this "salvation" to take place God set forth the condition that Israel turn back to the Law (Deut.30:1-5).

The 144,000 of Revelation 7 do not embrace Christ, as another poster asserts. They are those who are kept from hurt and who keep the Law to fulfill Deuteronomy 30:1-5. We find them again in Revelation 12 - the seed of the Woman, "who keep the commandments of God".

You suggest Jesus Christ will return and be on this earth amongst mortal humans?

Scripture warns against this, Jesus Christ wont be any place on this earth, the Antichrist will be received as the Messiah in Jerusalem, "Beware"!

Edited December 14, 2021 by truth7t7

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

You suggest Jesus Christ will return and be on this earth amongst mortal humans?

Scripture warns against this, Jesus Christ wont be any place on this earth, the Antichrist will be received as the Messiah in Jerusalem, "Beware"!

Yes. In Acts 1 the inspired record has angels telling the disciples that our Lord will come again as he went - that is, on the Mount Olives. This is predicted by Zechariah 14:4. So I do look for His coming according to Philippians 3:20. 

20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

I suggest you do too because loving His coming is a condition for receiving your crown (2nd Tim.4:8).

The warning in Matthew 24 that you allude to is for Jews. Read the context. From the Temple in the first verses through verse 31 and the four winds, it all pertains to Jews. It is the Jews that still wait for the birth in Bethlehem and the appearing of Messiah from Egypt, the wilderness and Nazareth of Galilee. False Christ's are not a problem for the Church. We are instructed to "beware" of false teachers (2nd Pet.2:1).

As to mortal bodies, only all Christians will have their resurrection bodies at Christ's coming (1st Cor.15:23). Many Israelites will too (Dan.12:2). But a section of Israel (those who survive the Great Tribulation) and the Gentiles who survive the Great Tribulation, will still have their Adamic bodies. Israelites will receive the Law written inside them and also receive a new hearts and new spirit (Jer.31:31-34, Ezek.11:19, 18:31, 36:26). The Gentiles, still in their Adamic bodies will need the "rule of the rod of iron" from Jesus (Rev.19:15) and the Overcomers of the Church (Rev.2:27).

Edited December 14, 2021 by AdHoc

[JohnR7]

36 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Yes. In Acts 1 the inspired record has angels telling the disciples that our Lord will come again as he went - that is, on the Mount Olives. This is predicted by Zechariah 14:4. So I do look for His coming according to Philippians 3:20. 

Some people call this the THIRD coming of Jesus. The second coming is in the clouds and the Bride will be caught up to meet Him just before the Tribulation begins. Then at the end of 7 years Jesus will return with His Bride and then His feet will actually touch the ground. So we will rule and reign with Him for 1,000 years. 

Future events like this are difficult to understand but we do the best we can to understand what is going to happen. 

[AdHoc]

43 minutes ago, JohnR7 said:

Some people call this the THIRD coming of Jesus. The second coming is in the clouds and the Bride will be caught up to meet Him just before the Tribulation begins. Then at the end of 7 years Jesus will return with His Bride and then His feet will actually touch the ground. So we will rule and reign with Him for 1,000 years. 

Future events like this are difficult to understand but we do the best we can to understand what is going to happen. 

The Lord bless you for your honesty. Yes. The matter is complicated. Here is my short appreciation of the matter. 

The time comes when God decides to change the government on earth as Daniel 2 predicts. Our Lord Jesus has been sitting in His Father's throne for 2,000 years. Now He is released to bring God's government to earth. He journeys from "above the highest" heaven to heaven and receives His own throne in Revelation 4. Having opened the Seals of judgment on the earth for ungodliness, He continues His journey to the Troposphere (where the clouds are). There, He pauses and the Church is raptured to the clouds (1st Thess.4). While still in the clouds, He judges the Church. Then, as Revelation 19 reports, He leaves the clouds to fight the Gentiles. This bursting forth from the clouds is recorded in Matthew 24, and it is NOT for the Church. They are already judged whilst in the clouds. The bursting forth from the clouds is for (i) Israel, and (ii) to fight Armageddon. He lands on Mount Olives and relieves Jerusalem, then He marches to Megiddo to fight the armies of the Beast. With that bloodbath behind Him, He settles the score with Edom at Bozrah, Then, as Matthew 24:31 records, He sends His angels to gather Israel as per Ezekiel 37. That is;

• His enthronement in heaven
• His journey downward to the clouds
• The rapture to the clouds to meet Him by the Church
• Judgment of the Church in the clouds
• He then continues His journey from the clouds to Mt. Olives to relieve Jerusalem, fight Armageddon
• He then sets up his throne in Jerusalem, gathers Israel from the diaspora, and judges the Nations who survived the Great Tribulation (Matt.25:31-46)

This sequence has Him coming only once and staying on earth.

Edited December 15, 2021 by AdHoc
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