The Great Tribulation Will Be Upon The Antichrist And Wicked, The Sealed Church Is Protected, Dont Be Deceived

[truth7t7]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I think that you just changed direction again. We spoke of Darby and Scofield, not 1st Thessalonians 4. May I suggest you quote Darby and Scofield and then show where they were mistaken. I don't agree with them either, but I don't assign Darby to being a false teacher. He was very good, but like all men, he made some mistakes.

I think you should post the verses where 144,000 of Chapter 7 are saved.

Revelation 20 tells of a One-thousand-year reign of Christ and His martyrs. Whether you give it a literal sense, or allegorical, scripture has a 1,000 year reign. It is your job to say why it is allegorical. Here are the things in the context:

• An angel
• Heaven
• Key
• bottomless pit
• a Seal
• deceive
• The Nations
• a little season
• Thrones
• judgment
• souls
• Beheaded
• Christ
• The Beast

Why are they all allegorical? And if not, why have you made THE thousand years ONLY allegorical? You must have a good reason to single out a six-times-mentioned reign and ALONE give it an allegorical sense amid a dozen or more literal things.

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)?

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time?

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand year

Edited December 24, 2021 by truth7t7

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

What you don't understand brother is that the Wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet.

Rev 10

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

When the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, that means Jesus has returned and set up His kingdom on earth. 

As to your points:

1. Israel is on the earth in verse 1. The Church is already in heaven, which is why they are not mentioned again after chapter 5 (though they are part of the gathering from heaven and earth and are in the great multitude and of course we see them in Rev 19.

2.  Which means that Israel has to be there. When I say Israel, I'm talking about the 12 tribes across the earth, THE SEED OF THE WOMAN. The nation of Israel itself will go through the wrath of God. 

3. Yes, those of the 12 tribes are sealed which means they are believers, which means they are in the harvest in Rev 7.

4. Yes Israel rejected Christ. And yet they will be regrafted. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (before the seals are opened), God will turn His attention to His Chosen Bride. That's why there are 144,000 first fruits that are sealed. That's why they are in heaven in Rev 14. Like I said, the wrath of God is over in Rev 11 when the 7th angel sounds the trumpet. What you see with the two beasts in Rev 13, and 144,000 first fruits happens back in the seals.

5. Those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection and go through the wrath of God. However, the seed of the woman, those in the twelve tribes across the earth are raptured at the 6th seal, just prior to the wrath of God.

Bottom line. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. This has nothing to do with the Church. This has to do with working 7 more years for His chosen bride. The Church, His other bride, will escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass during the 70th week of Daniel. Those that are ready, that is.

You have maintained some points of view above, which is all OK. But I'm interested to know why you did not address my points. Are you letting them stand?

Israel NEVER become the Church. They are still Israel in New Jerusalem. A Tree in parable is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31). Israel are not grafted into the Church. When they are restored, as the prophets predict, they will be part of the Kingdom. Jerusalem will be the abode of "the great King", and the twelve Apostles - Christians  will rule them under David - a Christian. Thus, though they forfeit the kingship, they are subjects and servants of Emmanuel.

The Church is never mentioned again after Chapter 3 of Revelation. That does not mean they are not around. In Chapter 7 they have washed their garments in Christ's blood - because they are dirty. They sing of salvation and welcome Christ as king with palm leaves. They are from "ALL Nations". In Chapter 12 they are those "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ". Remember, the Beast reigns then so the time of the Gentiles is not full. In Chapter 13:7 the "saints" are overcome by the Beast - so the Beast is still reigning. In Chapter 18:4 they reside in Mystery Babylon. In ALL these four examples the Jews are still blind and hate Christ. There can be no talk of the Church gone from earth and there can be no talk of an Israeli conversion to Christ.

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)?

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time?

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand year

Thank you for your response.

I appreciate that you have to post what you post. Brother, I think we are too far apart to even discuss. If Jesus Christ is not Jesus Christ and is some allegorical thing, I'm afraid that we are too far apart.

Nevertheless, I wish you God's double blessing.

[truth7t7]

7 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

You have maintained some points of view above, which is all OK. But I'm interested to know why you did not address my points. Are you letting them stand?

Israel NEVER become the Church. They are still Israel in New Jerusalem. A Tree in parable is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31). Israel are not grafted into the Church. When they are restored, as the prophets predict, they will be part of the Kingdom. Jerusalem will be the abode of "the great King", and the twelve Apostles - Christians  will rule them under David - a Christian. Thus, though they forfeit the kingship, they are subjects and servants of Emmanuel.

The Church is never mentioned again after Chapter 3 of Revelation. That does not mean they are not around. In Chapter 7 they have washed their garments in Christ's blood - because they are dirty. They sing of salvation and welcome Christ as king with palm leaves. They are from "ALL Nations". In Chapter 12 they are those "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ". Remember, the Beast reigns then so the time of the Gentiles is not full. In Chapter 13:7 the "saints" are overcome by the Beast - so the Beast is still reigning. In Chapter 18:4 they reside in Mystery Babylon. In ALL these four examples the Jews are still blind and hate Christ. There can be no talk of the Church gone from earth and there can be no talk of an Israeli conversion to Christ.

The Israel Of God Is The Church

Gods words clearly show (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Edited December 24, 2021 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

10 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your response.

I appreciate that you have to post what you post. Brother, I think we are too far apart to even discuss. If Jesus Christ is not Jesus Christ and is some allegorical thing, I'm afraid that we are too far apart.

Nevertheless, I wish you God's double blessing.

We can disagree Hoc

I was in the same camp as you for 20+ years, attending Baptist and Calvary Chapel churches

Pre-Trib Rapture, Two Peoples Of God Jew/Church in Dual Covenant Theology, A Literal Millennial Kingdom on this earth, where Jews rule in Jerusalem

Hoc none of the above exist in scripture, it's built around Zionist dreams and mans fairy tales

[AdHoc]

36 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

The Israel Of God Is The Church

Gods words clearly show (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

25 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

We can disagree Hoc

I was in the same camp as you for 20+ years, attending Baptist and Calvary Chapel churches

Pre-Trib Rapture, Two Peoples Of God Jew/Church in Dual Covenant Theology, A Literal Millennial Kingdom on this earth, where Jews rule in Jerusalem

Hoc none of the above exist in scripture, it's built around Zionist dreams and mans fairy tales

Nawww my friend. You yourself have given the reason. Your conclusions are reached by allegorizing the whole Bible. My conclusions are reached because I take it literally until it says otherwise or causes an absurdity. I could be wrong, but our Lord Jesus is a real physical Man, a Spirit and God. When He says that He will reign with certain saints for THE one thousand years, it is what it is. When He says turn your other cheek, I might not have the power to do it, but it means what it says. I'm sure that you are a successful man in life - and you did not get there by spiritualizing every book you read.

[truth7t7]

3 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

Nawww my friend. You yourself have given the reason. Your conclusions are reached by allegorizing the whole Bible. My conclusions are reached because I take it literally until it says otherwise or causes an absurdity. I could be wrong, but our Lord Jesus is a real physical Man, a Spirit and God. When He says that He will reign with certain saints for THE one thousand years, it is what it is. When He says turn your other cheek, I might not have the power to do it, but it means what it says. I'm sure that you are a successful man in life - and you did not get there by spiritualizing every book you read.

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false, he warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

[AdHoc]

1 minute ago, truth7t7 said:

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false, he warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Brother, who is looking for Christ in these places? The Nations? NO! They don't look for Jesus anyway. The Church? NO! They look to the heavens - and that is where He will come from. The Jews? YES! They still look for Christ from Bethlehem, from Egypt, from Galilee or from Nazareth. This prophecy is for our information only. We do not look for Christ from diverse places. It is a Jewish problem.

But COME? Oh Yes He will. And come in glory. Oh Yes! And come with a throne? Oh yes. Will He rule Israel? He is born for it! Will He rule the world? You can bet your life He will. For how long? For EVER. Man is made to rule the earth and God has not undone His councils.

[truth7t7]

5 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Brother, who is looking for Christ in these places? The Nations? NO! They don't look for Jesus anyway. The Church? NO! They look to the heavens - and that is where He will come from. The Jews? YES! They still look for Christ from Bethlehem, from Egypt, from Galilee or from Nazareth. This prophecy is for our information only. We do not look for Christ from diverse places. It is a Jewish problem.

But COME? Oh Yes He will. And come in glory. Oh Yes! And come with a throne? Oh yes. Will He rule Israel? He is born for it! Will He rule the world? You can bet your life He will. For how long? For EVER. Man is made to rule the earth and God has not undone His councils.

Jesus won't be found on this earth amongst mortal humans in a Millennial Kingdom, this will be the false Messiah (The Antichrist)

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

You have maintained some points of view above, which is all OK. But I'm interested to know why you did not address my points. Are you letting them stand?

I addressed everyone of you points in my post. Here, I'll repost what I said.

As to your points:

1. Israel is on the earth in verse 1. The Church is already in heaven, which is why they are not mentioned again after chapter 5 (though they are part of the gathering from heaven and earth and are in the great multitude and of course we see them in Rev 19.

2.  Which means that Israel has to be there. When I say Israel, I'm talking about the 12 tribes across the earth, THE SEED OF THE WOMAN. The nation of Israel itself will go through the wrath of God. 

3. Yes, those of the 12 tribes are sealed which means they are believers, which means they are in the harvest in Rev 7.

4. Yes Israel rejected Christ. And yet they will be regrafted. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (before the seals are opened), God will turn His attention to His Chosen Bride. That's why there are 144,000 first fruits that are sealed. That's why they are in heaven in Rev 14. Like I said, the wrath of God is over in Rev 11 when the 7th angel sounds the trumpet. What you see with the two beasts in Rev 13, and 144,000 first fruits happens back in the seals.

5. Those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection and go through the wrath of God. However, the seed of the woman, those in the twelve tribes across the earth are raptured at the 6th seal, just prior to the wrath of God.

Bottom line. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. This has nothing to do with the Church. This has to do with working 7 more years for His chosen bride. The Church, His other bride, will escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass during the 70th week of Daniel. Those that are ready, that is.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Israel NEVER become the Church.

EXACTLY. The Church is raptured before the 70th week of Daniel. That's before the seals are opened. When the fullness of the comes in at the rapture, part of Israel has it's blindness removed. That part is the seed of the woman who the dragon goes after when he can't get to those of the nation of Israel.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

 

They are still Israel in New Jerusalem.

Yep

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

A Tree in parable is a king and his kingdom (Judges 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31). Israel are not grafted into the Church.

Exactly. Both are grafted into the olive tree.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The Church is never mentioned again after Chapter 3 of Revelation.

They are the kings and priests of Rev 5

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

That does not mean they are not around. In Chapter 7 they have washed their garments in Christ's blood - because they are dirty. They sing of salvation and welcome Christ as king with palm leaves. They are from "ALL Nations".

What you see in Rev 7 is the great multitude that is gathered from HEAVEN and EARTH.

Mark 13

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church is already in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened. Then Jesus comes at the 6th seal. He brings the Church from heaven and then raptures the dead that were not raptured when the dead in Christ were raptured. He also raptures the alive from the 12 tribes across the earth that were not killed in the Great Tribulation. That's why all nations are there.

 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

In Chapter 12 they are those "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ".

Those that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ are the 12 tribes across the earth. The seed of woman, Israel, are Jews. They become Christians after the Church is raptured. God has turned His attention to the Jews after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Remember, the Beast reigns then so the time of the Gentiles is not full.

You are confusing the times of the Gentiles and the fullness of the Gentiles. They are not the same thing.

Rom 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Luke 21

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

In Chapter 13:7 the "saints" are overcome by the Beast - so the Beast is still reigning. In Chapter 18:4 they reside in Mystery Babylon. In ALL these four examples the Jews are still blind and hate Christ. There can be no talk of the Church gone from earth and there can be no talk of an Israeli conversion to Christ.

The events of Chapter 13 happen during the 6 seals. The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. Then you get another view of the seals in Rev 13. Then you get another view of the coming of Jesus at the end of Rev 14. Then you get another view of the wrath of God in Rev 15 and 16.