The Israel Of God Is The Church

[Anne2]

14 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Yes, and..... ?

 

There is no mention of two inheritances. It appears the passages just quoted prove there's only one inheritance.

 

Are you aware 1) God fulfilled the land promise? 2) the Hebrews did not keep their portion of the covenant agreement? 3) God declared them covenant breakers and divorced them? 4) gave the covenant, a new covenant to others, abrogating the old? and 5) the New Testament applies the elements of the Abrahamic covenant to those who live by faith in Christ whether Jew or Gentile?

How do I break up a response to you? I keep messing it up. I know I have done that before but don't know how i did it. My posts get so messed up. sorry about that.

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

Then how is it the Premillennialist, especially the Dispensational adherents, go from the absence of any mention of a king to the millennium reign using these passages? 

 

Think about the specifics of the question. 

 

Then tell me what the New Testament says about the Genesis 17 text. Use scripture where you can. 

You load your question - perhaps unintentionally. With your question formulated like that, you force an answer that could be different. By accusing that Dispensationalists  of using "these passages" you cut off any chance of getting to the truth of the matter. But at the risk of a berating I will answer.

In a previous post you applied something to me that was "implied". This I did not object to as it is a part of grammar. Now I answer by "implication". To Abraham is promised in "these passages", (i) "Possession" and (ii) kings. The "kings" are general in 17:6, but specific from Sarah in 17:16. By implication the owner of something may legally exercise sovereignty over it. Added to this, Genesis 22:17–19, in which is the verse that Galatians 3:16 quotes, it reads;

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

THREE seeds are promised to Abraham;

1. THE Seed (singular) - Jesus Christ (Gal.3:16)
2. Seed as the sand of the sea-shore - an earthly people who dwell alongside the nations
3. Seed as the stars of heaven - an heavenly people

And Abraham's seed will "possess the Gates of his enemies". The "Gate" of a town or city in the Old Testament was were the elders gathered to exercise rule.

If you search for the truth, the kings of Israel came out of Sarah, including Jesus. Thus, Jesus is King of Israel. Then, by default, those that come out of Jesus (Jn.12:24) are seed of Abraham (Gal.3:29). And some of them will be kings after Jesus returns (Lk.19:17-19, Rom.4:13). Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are, together with David and the twelve Apostles already promised kingship, and David's Son is, by Covenant, King. Christ's Kingdom is an "everlasting Kingdom", the first thousand years of which are on the present "adornment", and the ages to come are on a "Renewed Adornment*".

I think that the case is more than settled, if you will allow the dispensationalist to answer freely.

* The meaning of the word "world" (kosmos) is "the adornment", or " the orderly arrangement of things". Adam had the pre-flood "adornment". We now have the present and post flood world. The Millennial Kingdom is the "Regeneration" (Matt.19:28). And after that follows the "adornment made pristine", or New earth.

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

My trustworthy KJV says the same thing. The house of Israel and the house of Judah can also spiritually represent all true believers, depending on the context.

This concept never occurs in scripture. Israel are not spiritually anything. They are the seed of the twelve sons of Jacob. Paul defines them in Romans 9:3-5

 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The chasm between Israelite and Believer is immense. One is born of ONE FATHER - God (Jn.1:12-13. The other is born of sexual intercourse and the womb.

But if you are still not sure, let trace Israel, and give them what you propose. If Israel is SPIRITUALLY all God's people, then ...

• The Church comes from four SPIRITUAL mothers
• The Church cannot call God their Father for they come from 12 SPIRITUAL Fathers
• The Church has only human LIFE as per the Law of "kinds" in Genesis 1:11-12
• The Church are in "UNBELIEF"
• The Church is "BLIND"
• The Church is cut out of the Olive Tree
• The Church broke a Covenant that they were never given
• The Church must worship in Jerusalem not in SPIRIT (Jn.4:24)
• The Church is persecuted by the Church
• The Church hates and rejects Jesus
• The Church is the Gates of New Jerusalem

... and so on ad absurdum.

Israel will be "saved". Israel will be restored. Israel are God's people once restored. But Israel never mixes with the Church. One is born of the flesh and DISBELIEVES. The other is born of the Spirit and BELIEVES.

 

[truth7t7]

57 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

You load your question - perhaps unintentionally. With your question formulated like that, you force an answer that could be different. By accusing that Dispensationalists  of using "these passages" you cut off any chance of getting to the truth of the matter. But at the risk of a berating I will answer.

In a previous post you applied something to me that was "implied". This I did not object to as it is a part of grammar. Now I answer by "implication". To Abraham is promised in "these passages", (i) "Possession" and (ii) kings. The "kings" are general in 17:6, but specific from Sarah in 17:16. By implication the owner of something may legally exercise sovereignty over it. Added to this, Genesis 22:17–19, in which is the verse that Galatians 3:16 quotes, it reads;

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

THREE seeds are promised to Abraham;

1. THE Seed (singular) - Jesus Christ (Gal.3:16)
2. Seed as the sand of the sea-shore - an earthly people who dwell alongside the nations
3. Seed as the stars of heaven - an heavenly people

And Abraham's seed will "possess the Gates of his enemies". The "Gate" of a town or city in the Old Testament was were the elders gathered to exercise rule.

If you search for the truth, the kings of Israel came out of Sarah, including Jesus. Thus, Jesus is King of Israel. Then, by default, those that come out of Jesus (Jn.12:24) are seed of Abraham (Gal.3:29). And some of them will be kings after Jesus returns (Lk.19:17-19, Rom.4:13). Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are, together with David and the twelve Apostles already promised kingship, and David's Son is, by Covenant, King. Christ's Kingdom is an "everlasting Kingdom", the first thousand years of which are on the present "adornment", and the ages to come are on a "Renewed Adornment*".

I think that the case is more than settled, if you will allow the dispensationalist to answer freely.

* The meaning of the word "world" (kosmos) is "the adornment", or " the orderly arrangement of things". Adam had the pre-flood "adornment". We now have the present and post flood world. The Millennial Kingdom is the "Regeneration" (Matt.19:28). And after that follows the "adornment made pristine", or New earth.

You break Genesis 22:17-18 up into many different seeds "Plural", something not seen

Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of Genesis 22:17-18 as is clealy shown below, seed "Singular" that is Jesus Christ, not seeds "Plural" as you claim several different groups

Genesis 22:17-18KJV

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Galatians 3:16KJV

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

[AdHoc]

3 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

You break Genesis 22:17-18 up into many different seeds "Plural", something not seen

Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of Genesis 22:17-18 as is clealy shown below, seed "Singular" that is Jesus Christ, not seeds "Plural" as you claim several different groups

Genesis 22:17-18KJV

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Galatians 3:16KJV

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

The word "multiply" plainly states that there will be many. The picture given "as the sand of the sea shore" plainly shows many. The picture given "as the stars of heaven" plainly shows many. What you have to do is to reconcile this with Galatians. And you will not reconcile it if you take an isolated verse. You have to ask yourself; "If God, in His inspired Word, says that Abraham will have many seed, then we have to find out in which aspect Christ was the Seed (singular)".

The Book of Galatians was written because of the tendency of Christians to turn to the Law of Moses for perfection. They start by FAITH but turn to Law for sanctification. But the New Testament says that BOTH eternal life and sanctification comes via the Holy Spirit. So, within the context of the Book of Galatians, within the context of the whole New Testament, and within the context of Galatians Chapter 3, THE HOLY SPIRIT CAME ONLY THROUGH CHRIST - making Him a UNIQUE SEED (Jn.7:39, 14.18).

A man needs to be born of the Spirit to enter the Kingdom, and he needs to be transformed in his disposition for the Kingdom. This is only achieved by the Holy Spirit (Jn.3:6, 2nd Cor.3:18). His resurrection, in order to have a body fit for the Kingdom is achieved by Christ the "life-giving SPIRIT" (1st Cor.15:45). The whole process of qualifying a man for Abraham's promises is achieved by the Holy Spirit and not Law. And the Holy Spirit CAME to mankind by Jesus ONLY.

[truth7t7]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The word "multiply" plainly states that there will be many. The picture given "as the sand of the sea shore" plainly shows many. The picture given "as the stars of heaven" plainly shows many. What you have to do is to reconcile this with Galatians. And you will not reconcile it if you take an isolated verse. You have to ask yourself; "If God, in His inspired Word, says that Abraham will have many seed, then we have to find out in which aspect Christ was the Seed (singular)".

The Book of Galatians was written because of the tendency of Christians to turn to the Law of Moses for perfection. They start by FAITH but turn to Law for sanctification. But the New Testament says that BOTH eternal life and sanctification comes via the Holy Spirit. So, within the context of the Book of Galatians, within the context of the whole New Testament, and within the context of Galatians Chapter 3, THE HOLY SPIRIT CAME ONLY THROUGH CHRIST - making Him a UNIQUE SEED (Jn.7:39, 14.18).

A man needs to be born of the Spirit to enter the Kingdom, and he needs to be transformed in his disposition for the Kingdom. This is only achieved by the Holy Spirit (Jn.3:6, 2nd Cor.3:18). His resurrection, in order to have a body fit for the Kingdom is achieved by Christ the "life-giving SPIRIT" (1st Cor.15:45). The whole process of qualifying a man for Abraham's promises is achieved by the Holy Spirit and not Law. And the Holy Spirit CAME to mankind by Jesus ONLY.

I disagree with your claims, Genesis 22:17-18 speaks of "Seed" singular, and that being Jesus Christ, the "Seed" that multiplies is (The church)

You "Add" to scripture in "Seeds" plural, then run about the map with multiple different groups 

Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of Genesis 22:17-18 as is clealy shown below, seed "Singular" that is Jesus Christ, not seeds "Plural" as you claim several different groups

Genesis 22:17-18KJV

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Galatians 3:16KJV

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Edited January 4, 2022 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

The question is not loaded or accusatory. Dispensationalists do in fact argue from the OT covenants kings, earthly kingdoms, land, and a variety of other positions. It's not a secret. This practice is observable every day in the Prophecy and Eschatology board of this forum. It is because of this very observable fact of their practice that the question can be asked and asked without accusation. 

If a thousand years is not specified, and "All the Land of Canaan" is an "everlasting possession" (Gen.17:8), then how is it the Premillennialist, especially the Dispensational adherents, go from the absence of any mention of a king to the millennium reign using these passages? 

If that is not your position then your answer can be, "I don't know, ask one of them," but it is op-relevant, but you have asserted a "two-kingdoms" theology from the beginning of the discussion.

. And that is where the argument fails because we are kings NOW. 

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Not future-tense. 

This is why I so often ask "What does the New Testament state?" All the promises made to Abraham are fulfilled in Christ. Christ is the seed and through him Abraham has become the father of many nations, those constituent members of God's holy nation, those who live by faith. 

 

 

Let me review: you cited a list of scriptures that do NOT actually say what was claimed about them. That should be sufficient for you to reconsider 1) your own position, 2) how that position was reached, and 3) why you think it would be okay to post what turns out to be blatantly untrue. I am not attacking you, AdHoc. That is what happened in this thread. You had enough personal integrity to acknowledge the error and I commend that. Now do the next step and give the content. how it came to be believed, and why it was so erroneously asserted some consideration. 

 

Especially since the Israel of God is Christ, not the Church. 

 

The body of Christ includes both Israel and the Church, both grafted into the tree of Christ, but neither measured by bloodline, genetics, or geo-political nation-state status. 

Romans 2:28-29KJV

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

James 1:1KJV

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Two Israel's Are Mentioned Below

Israel, children of the flesh

Israel, children of the promise

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by truth7t7

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

The question is not loaded or accusatory. Dispensationalists do in fact argue from the OT covenants kings, earthly kingdoms, land, and a variety of other positions. It's not a secret. This practice is observable every day in the Prophecy and Eschatology board of this forum. It is because of this very observable fact of their practice that the question can be asked and asked without accusation. 

If a thousand years is not specified, and "All the Land of Canaan" is an "everlasting possession" (Gen.17:8), then how is it the Premillennialist, especially the Dispensational adherents, go from the absence of any mention of a king to the millennium reign using these passages? 

If that is not your position then your answer can be, "I don't know, ask one of them," but it is op-relevant, but you have asserted a "two-kingdoms" theology from the beginning of the discussion.

. And that is where the argument fails because we are kings NOW. 

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Not future-tense. 

This is why I so often ask "What does the New Testament state?" All the promises made to Abraham are fulfilled in Christ. Christ is the seed and through him Abraham has become the father of many nations, those constituent members of God's holy nation, those who live by faith. 

 

 

Let me review: you cited a list of scriptures that do NOT actually say what was claimed about them. That should be sufficient for you to reconsider 1) your own position, 2) how that position was reached, and 3) why you think it would be okay to post what turns out to be blatantly untrue. I am not attacking you, AdHoc. That is what happened in this thread. You had enough personal integrity to acknowledge the error and I commend that. Now do the next step and give the content. how it came to be believed, and why it was so erroneously asserted some consideration. 

 

Especially since the Israel of God is Christ, not the Church. 

 

The body of Christ includes both Israel and the Church, both grafted into the tree of Christ, but neither measured by bloodline, genetics, or geo-political nation-state status. 

You have spent a lot of writing without going into my arguments. If you insist of limiting Dispensationalists to a few Chapters, be my guest. Christ's reign in the Millennium is not mentioned in probably 1,180 Chapters of the Bible. But this is not proof that the other 9 are wrong. And it is exactly those 9 that you wish to cut out of the argument. 

But, pray, tell us all what "two-kingdom theology is. I've never heard of this term. Do you mean "duality" - that God can, and does, have two Peoples each with a unique but intertwined destiny?

And your premise that we are present kings is wrong. Prince Charles is royal but not YET king.

The Promises to Abraham are NOT fulfilled by Christ. If God promises something and does not deliver, He is either a liar or He will deliver in the future. Abraham, according to Hebrews 11:11-16 has NOT received the Promises. Hebrews was written some 30 years after Christ's ascension to glory and Abraham still does not have the land of Canaan.

Let it be known that if I make a mistake, I own it. But the interested reader will at once ascertain that I misread your question. That is what I owned. I have not apologized for my doctrine. I have laid forth more than enough proof that Israel and the Church are two separate entities, starting with their BIRTH, or ORIGIN. Israel is NOT, as you claim, part of the Body of Christ. The grand example of what constitutes the Body of Christ is Eve. She was taken out of Adam's side. Israel are "my (Paul's) brethren according to he FLESH" (Rom.9:3-4), whereas the Church is a "spiritual House" (1st Pet.2:5). Israel is explicitly EXCLUDED from this union. John 1:11-13 says;

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

His OWN is Israel. They received Him NOT. The Church, made of men with a new birth from above, NOT BY THE FLESH, is a company who BELIEVED, as opposed to "HIS OWN".

(CAPITALS for emphasis)

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

I disagree with your claims, Genesis 22:17-18 speaks of "Seed" singular, and that being Jesus Christ, the "Seed" that multiplies is (The church)

You "Add" to scripture in "Seeds" plural, then run about the map with multiple different groups 

Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of Genesis 22:17-18 as is clealy shown below, seed "Singular" that is Jesus Christ, not seeds "Plural" as you claim several different groups

Genesis 22:17-18KJV

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Galatians 3:16KJV

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

There is nothing new in either your, nor my argument. I'll pass.

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

I do not insist thusly, never said any such thing, and don't appreciate the misrepresentation. I simply provided that as one example of an op relevant problem specifically related to the blatantly incorrect statements made about Genesis 17, Deuteronomy 17, 1 Kings 9:5, 2 Chronicles 7:18, and Jeremiah 23:5-6. Not a single one of those texts says what you said they say, especially when understood based on what the New Testament says about that content. There is no promise to the nation of Israel to dwell with their king in any of those texts. 

The New Testament defines the Israel to whom the promises would be fulfilled, and it is NOT the geo-political nation-state Israel. The Old and the New Testaments also tell us the promised King rules all the earth, not just a postage-stamp sized parcel of land on the east side of the Mediterranean, and he does so from the throne of God, which is heaven. 

I completely agree with you: there is no millennium mentioned in any of those passages. The land of Canaan is an everlasting promise, but it is a conditional promise and Israel failed to keep its end of the covenant. So it is completely appropriately for me to ask about the Dispensationalists since they're the only ones who think the nation of Israel is relevant to Christian eschatology. And you can gripe about my putting these pieces together but griping 1) does not make what I said untrue, or 2) help you engage these matters op-relevantly. 

OK. You've made yourself clear.

Go well.