A Prewrath Rapture question

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

This does not speak directly about the rapture, but it does say we are not in darkness that that day would overtake us as a thief...Why? Because he told us 'when you shall see the man of sin in the holy place, then know that it is nigh, even at the doors...the only way we could see him is if we were here, and of course the believers had not yet been raptured because no resurrection of the dead in Christ had happened, because there was no resurrection of any believers until the last day. 

It DOES speak directly of the rapture. It is the way we are saved from the sudden destruction and get "to live together with Him."

Jesus comes as a thief, and calls up the church. Then the DAY comes as a thief because HE came as a thief. The Day will not catch us by surprise because the church will be looking for His coming. 

Mat. 24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things..

 Who is the "ye?" Who is Jesus talking to? He is talking to Jews about the end of THEIR age, proven when He mentioned the abomination that will divide the week. It s THEIR week, not the churches' week. What did Luke write in the same discourse?

36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I am going to escape "all these things," so I wont be here to see "all these things." However, the Jews will be here and they will see.

The rest of your paragraph is your theory.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

...

What else does it say? It says 'He that endures unto the end shall be saved..."

...

 

 

 

 

We have a choice.

a. We can "endure to the end" with the Jews
b. We can escape "all these things" and "live together with Him."

I choose b.

[transmogrified]

On 3/28/2022 at 7:47 AM, iamlamad said:

The rapture is in the previous chapter. Keep in mind, neither God nor Paul wrote in chapter headings. They were added later. Paul mentions the Day of the Lord just three verses after His classic rapture passage of 4:17. Why would he do that unless they were somehow connected?

Yes, the day of the Lord and the rapture are connected, but because he wrote about the rapture first and then wrote about the day of the Lord in the next few verses does not mean the rapture happens before the Day of the Lord. 

He said he would bring those that sleep with him before he wrote about the resurrection...does that mean those that sleep returned with him before the resurrection because he said that first? Of course not.

On 3/28/2022 at 7:47 AM, iamlamad said:

Why would Paul then write that God will set no appointments for us with His wrath, if the Day and His wrath are not in some way connected with the rapture?

To rephrase what you are saying is, "There is wrath in the Day of the Lord, and so because he wrote about us not being appointed to wrath, that means we must be raptured because he wrote about being raptured first.' 

First premise..."There will be wrath in the day of the Lord...' Yes of course...

Second premise..." He wrote we are not appointed to wrath...' Yes...

Third premise...'He mentioned there would be a rapture before he mentioned his wrath, so that means the rapture happens first...' No. The resurrection is what is specified to happen first, not the rapture, and the resurrection does not happen until the last day. 

On 3/28/2022 at 7:47 AM, iamlamad said:

Make no mistake here, Paul is still talking about the rapture for He wrote that while those living in the darkness will get left behind and get sudden destruction, those living in Christ will get raptured ("salvation") and get to live together with Him - saying the same thing as "so shall we very be with the Lord" from chapter 4.

Even from a pre trib narrative, the rapture allegedly happens and the world goes on for seven years, while 3. 5 years of that is the man of sin ruling over all the nations...those that are left behind are not suddenly destroyed...there are nations that are left after Armageddon that go up from year to year to worship the Lord...even in the pre trib narrative, they got left behind and yet they were not suddenly destroyed. There are many nations that will be joined to the Lord in that day...they got left behind but were not suddenly destroyed.

Ps. 22:27 "All the ends of the earth shall remember, and turn unto the Lord, and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.'

Ps. 72:11 "Yea, all kings shall fall down before him; all nations shall serve him."

Isaiah 2:2 "And it shall come to pass in the last day the mountain of the Lord of hosts shall be established above the hills...and all nations shall flow unto it.'

Daniel 7:14 "And there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion..."

Zech. 2:11 "And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people and I will dwell in the midst of the..."

Zech. 8:22 'Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and to pray before the Lord."

These are just some of the scriptures showing the nations get converted at the Second Coming...they were not all suddenly destroyed or they would not still be here at the Second Coming.

Rev. 2:26 "He that overcomes and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations."

Rev. 15:4 - "Who shall not fear thee, O Lord...for all nations shall come and worship before thee, for ty judgments are made manifest."

Who are these nations that we rule over during the 1000 years if everybody gets suddenly destroyed after the rapture? Everyone does not get suddenly destroyed after the rapture...there are many nations that will repent and be joined to the Lord at the Second Coming...The sudden destruction is when they say peace and safety...this destruction is Jesus coming down from heaven at Armageddon and destroying the armies of the beast.

On 3/28/2022 at 7:47 AM, iamlamad said:

What I understand from this is Paul telling us that the start of God's wrath is going to follow immediately after the rapture. Prewrath theorists understands it the same way, so they have to MOVE the start of the Day of His wrath to later on in the book to make Revelation fit their theory.

Talking about the rapture before talking about the Day of the Lord does not mean the rapture comes first...This would be like bringing home pictures of your trip to yellow stone. You show a picture of Old Faithful then another picture where you are feeding the bears...is that proof you saw Old Faithful first and then fed the bears later? Without you specifically said something like 'We fed the bears then went to Old Faithful,' showing a picture of Old Faithful first before showing a picture of you feeding the bears is not proof of what you did first... John 6 proves there is no resurrection of any saint before the last day..so this is all conjecture about how things could have been if the resurrection was not on the last day...

On 3/28/2022 at 7:47 AM, iamlamad said:

Quote

when you shall see the man of sin in the holy place,

This was spoken to Jews about the end of THEIR age, and has nothing to do with the Gentile church of today.

When you see the man of sin in the holy place was referring to the DAY in which his coming and the end of the age that would occur on that day...Jesus said when ye see the man of sin standing in the holy place...then he said when you see all these things then know that it is nigh, even at the doors...But then what did he say? It says 'But of that day and hour knows no man...' it is the Day of the Lord he was referring to which was of course the end of the age and also the Second Coming, but of course this day does not just pertain to the Jews...this is ridiculous...The Second Coming and the Day of the Lord pertains to everyone alive and dead, not just the Jews...

So when he said 'When you see the man of sin...' he is NOT talking about the alleged end of the Jewish age...there is no mention of a Jewish age anywhere in these texts...it is the end of THE AGE, and of HIS COMING. What does all this mean? It means it is a smokescreen to say this pertains to the Jews, to take the attention off what he really was saying...Paul was warning those in Thessalonians about the man of sin being revealed and to not be deceived...Paul did not say, But the man of sin is just a sign that the Jewish age has ended...' No, he was telling the Gentile believers at Thessalonia to know that there had to be a falling away first and the man of sin had to be revealed before the Day of the Lord could come...Paul was telling this to probably mostly Gentile believers, Jesus was telling it to his own disciples which some think all were Israelites, but anyway the point is the scripture is telling all believers that when they see this man then know that the Second coming is nigh, it has nothing to do with a 'Jewish age' coming to its end.

On 3/28/2022 at 7:47 AM, iamlamad said:

This means every event of the 70th week (every trumpet and every bowl) will come with His wrath - and that means, the church is not going to be here for any of it. The rapture then, just as Paul stated, will come just before wrath. I believe the rapture will be the trigger for the start of wrath.

It is not true that the church will not be here for any of it...even in the pre trib world the tribulation saints are called saints...the two witnesses are also saints...the New Testament does not cease to exist during the tribulation..people still have to call on the name of the Lord to be saved..they still have to repent...they still need to be baptized...they still need to be filled with the Spirit...still need to take up their cross and deny themselves...still need to put on the whole armor of God...still need to resist the devil...

The scripture states the little horn makes war against the saints...are they saints or not? Of course they are saints and the only way to become a saint is to do what everyone has to do to become a saint. Pre trib needs to drop the saying that the church is not in the tribulation...they themselves say they are there, and the only thing that makes them not there is by having a double standard. They are washed in the blood just like you or me...their names are in the book of life just like you or me, by one spirit they were baptized in one body just like you or me.

Two major things Pre trib needs to stop saying...one is the church is not in the tribulation, the other is that in order to not be appointed to wrath you have to be raptured...The two witnesses are not raptured...is God pouring out his wrath on them? No. they have power to shut heaven and to smite the earth will all plagues as often as they will...Does God pour out his wrath on the tribulation saints? No. They are not appointed to wrath just like you or me...

The whole phrase is not just 'For God hath not appointed us unto wrath..' the rest of it says 'but to obtain salvation.' It did not say "For God hath not appointed us to to wrath, but to be raptured.' Obtaining salvation is what secures one from being subject to his wrath...not being raptured.  

On 3/28/2022 at 7:47 AM, iamlamad said:

Daniel wrote that the 70th week was for his people. The church is not going to see this. Why? Because God will begin the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath BEFORE He begins the 70th week, and this will place the entire 70th week INSIDE the Day of the Lord.

The sun has to be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before that great and notable day of the Lord come...the sun and moon are turned to darkness at the 6th seal, not before the tribulation...so the whole 70th week can not be  placed inside the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is one single day...the 70th week is 7 years  and the Day of the Lord is the Last Day of that 70th week, or the last day of this age in which Jesus returns...The Day of the Lord is not the 7 year period.  

At the sixth seal when the sun is darkened and the moon turned to blood it says the great day of his wrath is come...' The seven trumpets still have to sound after the 6th seal before Jesus returns, but this is not an event that can be called pre-trib...If you are really not pre -trib, you shouldn't call yourself pre trib.

On 3/28/2022 at 7:47 AM, iamlamad said:

This means every event of the 70th week (every trumpet and every bowl) will come with His wrath - and that means, the church is not going to be here for any of it. The rapture then, just as Paul stated, will come just before wrath. I believe the rapture will be the trigger for the start of wrath.

If God can protect the 144000 from being hurt and they are not even saved yet, I'm sure God can protect people who are sealed with the Spirit and are saved...as it says, we are not appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation. Salvation is what we are to obtain...having salvation is what protects us from his wrath...not being raptured. 

On 3/28/2022 at 7:47 AM, iamlamad said:

Make no mistake here, Paul is still talking about the rapture for He wrote that while those living in the darkness will get left behind and get sudden destruction,

Yes there will be some left behind but they are not destroyed...one is taken the other is left...the ones who are taken are the raptured ones, but when the disciples asked Jesus 'where,' or, in other words, 'where will they be taken?' he said 'where the carcase is there will the eagles be gathered together...in other words they are immediately taken that day to Armageddon when Jesus descends from heaven...they are coming to execute vengeance on those armies.

There are nations that are left and they go up to Jerusalem year by year..so sudden destruction does not come on the whole world...those that are specifically killed on that day are just those at Armageddon...of course others are killed during the tribulation but the other nations convert and are joined to the Lord, as it says 'he rebukes them and then rules over them...' if he killed them all there would be no one to rule over...

On 3/28/2022 at 7:47 AM, iamlamad said:

What I understand from this is Paul telling us that the start of God's wrath is going to follow immediately after the rapture.

There are things that have to happen before the day of the Lord starts...what is being presented here is the pre trib version of the day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is not the entire 7 year span.. scripture states the sun must be darkened and the moon turned to blood before that great and terrible day of the Lord come...that does not happen until the 6th seal...scripture states the man of sin must be revealed before the Day of the Lord comes...scripture states the heaven must retain Jesus until the prophecies are fulfilled...scripture states there is no resurrection of the saints until the last day...scripture states the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day...scripture pegs that Great Day of God Almighty directly to the Battle of Armageddon...when the 6th seal is opened it states 'the great day of his wrath is come...' it was about to happen at the sixth seal, not some 7 years before the 6th seal...Pre trib does not follow these protocols...the day of the Lord is re-defined to mean the whole 7 year period when scripture does not define it that way...It is like looking at a motor and calling the crank shaft the muffler...calling it a muffler does not make it work like a crankshaft, neither does it make it a muffler...

The foundational issue of when the resurrection happens must be resolved. There has been no evidence given that has shown Jesus was not talking about the New Testament believers being resurrected on the last day...if there is no resurrection before the last day, then the believers are all present on the earth until that time...this changes the narrative completely..

Jesus will resurrect all the believers on the last day..it won't happen because I believe it or because I doubt it...it will happen no matter what I do. Believing there will be a pre trib resurrection will not make it happen whether I believe it or doubt it...it will not happen no matter what I do...There is no choice because there are no other options...

Blessings to you

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, the day of the Lord and the rapture are connected, but because he wrote about the rapture first and then wrote about the day of the Lord in the next few verses does not mean the rapture happens before the Day of the Lord. 

He said he would bring those that sleep with him before he wrote about the resurrection...does that mean those that sleep returned with him before the resurrection because he said that first? Of course not.

To rephrase what you are saying is, "There is wrath in the Day of the Lord, and so because he wrote about us not being appointed to wrath, that means we must be raptured because he wrote about being raptured first.'

There is ORDER in what Paul wrote. There is ORDER in what John wrote in Revelation. There is ORDER in what Jesus said in His end-time discourse.

Of course Jesus will bring the spirits of those who has passed with him first, so they can join with their new, resurrected body. That is the proper order. The dead will rise first, before those who are alive are caught up. That is the written order.

And yes, wrath will follow the rapture events. That is the way Paul and John wrote it. Why try to rewrite scripture to fit some theory? It is much better to form a theory from scripture AS WRITTEN. 

It is not a myth: Isaiah wrote that the Day of the Lord comes with wrath and fierce anger.

Isaiah 13:9  Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

How can anyone form a theory that the Day comes with the rapture first, and then wrath? That is forcing a change in scripture to fit some theory.

I don't think it would do an injustice to Paul: I could say it this way. We get "salvation" and get to "live together with Him" while THEY get "sudden destruction" and wrath.

God sets appointments for THEM with His wrath, but sets no appointments for US. Rather than wrath and sudden destruction, WE get salvation (get caught up.).

Quote

that means we must be raptured because he wrote about being raptured first.'

No, it means we must be raptured before the Day of the Lord. 

The Day does NOT equal rapture, and rapture DOES NOT equal the Day. The rapture is BLISS, while the DAY is WRATH. Never the twain shall meet. Rather, the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day.

In short, just as I have been saying all along, the rapture events come FIRST, at a time no one knows (like a thief in the night) and the day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath will follow - no time between. As Van Kampen wrote, in his book, "the Rapture Question Answered" they are "back to back events." It is about the only thing Van Kampen got right.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

First premise..."There will be wrath in the day of the Lord...' Yes of course...

Second premise..." He wrote we are not appointed to wrath...' Yes...

Third premise...'He mentioned there would be a rapture before he mentioned his wrath, so that means the rapture happens first...' No. The resurrection is what is specified to happen first, not the rapture, and the resurrection does not happen until the last day. 

First premise..."The day of the Lord will be an extended period of God's wrath. Every judgment will come with His wrath. Yes of course...

Second premise..." He wrote we are not appointed to wrath...' Yes... This means we won't be here. We don't show up at the dentist's office without an appointment.

Third premise...There certainly will be a resurrection on "the last day," but the resurrection of the Dead in Christ will happen over 7 years previous to that one, before God's wrath is poured out. 

Why limit God to one resurrection?
Is the resurrection for the Two Witnesses an exception to your rule?

I believe the entire church age, including the resurrection of the Dead in Christ is an exception.  The church age has been inserted into the Jewish timeline  - as a parenthesis. Very shortly after the rapture of the church, the 70th week will come and that is part of the Jewish timeline. You will not find any part of the church in the 70th week. What you will find is "tribulation saints." They are there only because God has great mercy and will allow any to come to Him, even during the time of His wrath.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

...

Even from a pre trib narrative, the rapture allegedly happens and the world goes on for seven years, while 3. 5 years of that is the man of sin ruling over all the nations...those that are left behind are not suddenly destroyed...there are nations that are left after Armageddon that go up from year to year to worship the Lord...even in the pre trib narrative, they got left behind and yet they were not suddenly destroyed. There are many nations that will be joined to the Lord in that day...they got left behind but were not suddenly destroyed.

Yes, because the Jewish age must end with the 70th week, which is 7 more years. It is not for the church. God's purpose for the Week is to utterly CRUSH the power of the Hebrew people, until the only slight hope they have left is if their Messiah comes and delivers them. Perhaps 70 nations will send armies to wipe Israel off the map. Multiplied millions of soldiers will be there with one purpose: to kill all the Hebrew people. God has neither a need or a desire to put the church through this time. He does not need to crush the power of the saints: they already belong to Him.

No groom in his right mind would send his bride out to be crushed to see if she really loved him.  Why would anyone imagine our God would do such a thing?

There are two verses in the bible that pertain to the saints during the 70th week: both verses tell us the saints will be overcome. Another passage tells us the way the saints will get victory over the Beast is to refuse his mark and lose their head.

I have yet to meet a posttribulationist that believes he or she will be overcome.

Quote

there are nations that are left after Armageddon that go up from year to year to worship

You missed a step. The nations must pass the sheep and goat test. That will elimination many for they are goats.

There can be no doubt, every human left alive to enter the millennial kingdom will believe in Jesus Christ and will KNOW He is God.

None of this prevents a pretrib rapture.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

 

Ps. 22:27 "All the ends of the earth shall remember, and turn unto the Lord, and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.'

Ps. 72:11 "Yea, all kings shall fall down before him; all nations shall serve him."

Isaiah 2:2 "And it shall come to pass in the last day the mountain of the Lord of hosts shall be established above the hills...and all nations shall flow unto it.'

Daniel 7:14 "And there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion..."

Zech. 2:11 "And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people and I will dwell in the midst of the..."

Zech. 8:22 'Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and to pray before the Lord."

These are just some of the scriptures showing the nations get converted at the Second Coming...they were not all suddenly destroyed or they would not still be here at the Second Coming.

Rev. 2:26 "He that overcomes and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations."

Rev. 15:4 - "Who shall not fear thee, O Lord...for all nations shall come and worship before thee, for ty judgments are made manifest."

Who are these nations that we rule over during the 1000 years if everybody gets suddenly destroyed after the rapture? Everyone does not get suddenly destroyed after the rapture...there are many nations that will repent and be joined to the Lord at the Second Coming...The sudden destruction is when they say peace and safety...this destruction is Jesus coming down from heaven at Armageddon and destroying the armies of the beast.

Finally I see where you are coming from. I guess you do not understand Paul's "sudden destruction." OF COURSE all people left behind are not destroyed! Who ever said they were? Whoever said it did not read Revelation.

I am convinced, when God raises people who have been long dead, their resurrection is going to cause an earthquake. The longer they are dead, the greater the earthquake. As Matthew wrote, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." I believe God raised the elders of the Old Covenant then. Without a doubt, some from before the flood. 

Many of the dead in Christ have been dead a very long time, and the "dust" that once formed their bodies has been spread over distance. God is going to bring that dust together and reform that body that died and turned to dust, and bringing that dust together is going to cause a worldwide earthquake. Exactly the kind of earthquake John wrote would happen at the 6th seal start of God's wrath.

The rapture events will take place before that earthquake and CAUSE that earthquake. As confirmation, John then SAW the raptured church in heaven and wrote about it in chapter 7. 

The truth then is, SOME will die in that earthquake, but as a percentage of the population, probably small.  When the Old Testament saints rise, that is going to cause a MONUMENTAL earthqauke, just the quake we read about at the 7th vial that ends the week. That will be when God raises all the righteous from before the flood. The flood would end up scattering the dust of bodies for perhaps thousands of miles and perhaps very deep in the earth. But in a very short time, God will bring the dust of all those bodies together and reform them. This will cause an earthquake so terrible it will shake the mountains down into the earth. Yet, PEOPLE SURVIVE.

Quote

The sudden destruction is when they say peace and safety...this destruction is Jesus coming down from heaven at Armageddon and destroying the armies of the beast.

You are not following the scripture. Paul's "sudden destruction" comes when Wrath begins, and that is at the 6th seal? Are you going to just MOVE that 6th seal to the end as prewrathers do? If so, that would be proof positive your theory will be proven wrong. I can assure you, the 6th seal events must stay in the timeframe of Revelation chapter 6.

"Sudden Destruction"  These two words certainly do not tell us all people will be destruction. It only means destruction (of what is not said) that comes suddenly, without warning.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

Talking about the rapture before talking about the Day of the Lord does not mean the rapture comes first...This would be like bringing home pictures of your trip to yellow stone. You show a picture of Old Faithful then another picture where you are feeding the bears...is that proof you saw Old Faithful first and then fed the bears later? Without you specifically said something like 'We fed the bears then went to Old Faithful,' showing a picture of Old Faithful first before showing a picture of you feeding the bears is not proof of what you did first... John 6 proves there is no resurrection of any saint before the last day..so this is all conjecture about how things could have been if the resurrection was not on the last day...

 

Do you have any proof Paul wrote these OUT OF ORDER? 

I think the proof is in Paul's phrase that God will set no appointments for us with His wrath. In a rapture passage I think the meaning is clear, the rapture comes before wrath, exactly the order Paul wrote it.

Again, what part of this sounds like a rapture?

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

I don't think any part of this fits the rapture. I think the rapture will trigger the start of the Day.

Quote

John 6 proves there is no resurrection of any saint before the last day..so this is all conjecture

And what Paul wrote proves that Jesus was speaking to Jews about the end of THEIR age. We see their resurrection on the last day confirmed in Rev. 16 by the huge earthquake. After all, it was much later when God chose to send Paul to the Gentiles and put blindness in part upon the Jews - starting the Gentile church. 

Rev. 19 proves there cannot be a rapture as Jesus descends because the marriage and supper will take place in heaven. 

You put more weight, so to speak, on John 4, and I put more weight on 1 Thes. 4 & 5. 

What do you do with the resurrection of the Two Witnesses?

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, transmogrified said:

...

When you see the man of sin in the holy place was referring to the DAY in which his coming and the end of the age that would occur on that day...Jesus said when ye see the man of sin standing in the holy place...then he said when you see all these things then know that it is nigh, even at the doors...But then what did he say? It says 'But of that day and hour knows no man...' it is the Day of the Lord he was referring to which was of course the end of the age and also the Second Coming, but of course this day does not just pertain to the Jews...this is ridiculous...The Second Coming and the Day of the Lord pertains to everyone alive and dead, not just the Jews...

So when he said 'When you see the man of sin...' he is NOT talking about the alleged end of the Jewish age...there is no mention of a Jewish age anywhere in these texts...it is the end of THE AGE, and of HIS COMING. What does all this mean? It means it is a smokescreen to say this pertains to the Jews, to take the attention off what he really was saying...Paul was warning those in Thessalonians about the man of sin being revealed and to not be deceived...Paul did not say, But the man of sin is just a sign that the Jewish age has ended...' No, he was telling the Gentile believers at Thessalonia to know that there had to be a falling away first and the man of sin had to be revealed before the Day of the Lord could come...Paul was telling this to probably mostly Gentile believers, Jesus was telling it to his own disciples which some think all were Israelites, but anyway the point is the scripture is telling all believers that when they see this man then know that the Second coming is nigh, it has nothing to do with a 'Jewish age' coming to its end.

 

Jesus never mentioned the 70th-week of Daniel by that title, but we know when the man of sin is revealed that such an event will divide the week. So when Jesus mentioned the abomination, He is at the midpoint of the week. We know this, not from Jesus' discourse, but from Daniel. 

When forming doctrine, we must consider ALL the end time passages and form a theory as much as possible that fits every scripture. If this was easy, we would all agree on the end-time events. There are conflicts.

Quote

there is no mention of a Jewish age anywhere in these texts.

It does not say the end of the Millennial age or the end of the church age either. We must determine the end of WHAT by other texts.

John 11:24  Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

It was common knowledge that there would be a resurrection at the last day.  It must be the last day of the age they were in. (It still has not happened.)

Paul differentiated the Gentile age as a special dispensation.

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 3:2
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Jesus made no mention of this age or dispensation either, probably because it was still hidden as a mystery in the Father.

Since, as you say, Jesus did not mention "age" but He did show us His age:

Matthew 19:28  And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

By showing us the millennial age, he was differentiating the age they were then in.

Quote

It says 'But of that day and hour knows no man...' it is the Day of the Lord he was referring to which was of course the end of the age and also the Second Coming,

I could agree that the Day Jesus returns will be INSIDE the Day of the Lord, but that Day will start over 7 years BEFORE Jesus returns to Armageddon. Sorry, but neither prewrath nor posttrib can move the start of the Day of the Lord from where John placed it - at the 6th seal - to anywhere else. It is FIXED in place between the 5th and 7th seals. 

I don't call that the "second" coming, because it will be HIS THIRD coming.

Quote

this day does not just pertain to the Jews...this is ridiculous...The Second Coming and the Day of the Lord pertains to everyone alive and dead, not just the Jews...

You are right again, but the church will be coming WITH HIM to Armageddon. The Jews will be in a desperate place when He comes.

Quote

So when he said 'When you see the man of sin...' he is NOT talking about the alleged end of the Jewish age...there is no mention of a Jewish age anywhere in these texts...it is the end of THE AGE, and of HIS COMING.

 

"When you shall see the abomination..."  You are mistaken: Jesus is then at the MIDPOINT of the week, not the end of the week. It will be the abomination that stops the daily sacrifices and divides the week.  Daniel most certainly tells us the week is for HIS PEOPLE, the Jews. None of the first 69 weeks were for the Gentiles - why do you insist the 70th week must be?

Quote

he was telling the Gentile believers at Thessalonia to know that there had to be a falling away first and the man of sin had to be revealed before the Day of the Lord could come..

This is pretty much messed up. What Paul really told them is that they had NOT missed the rapture and they were NOT in the Day of the Lord. He then shows them why. If someone first sees a very significant departure, then sees the man of sin revealed, they can then know for sure the Day has started and they are IN IT.

But what is the significant departure or departing? Paul gives us a big hint: the theme of this passage is the gathering or rapture will will be the church departing earth for heaven. (Read this passage in the Amplified to get the proper verb tenses.)

[truth7t7]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Finally I see where you are coming from. I guess you do not understand Paul's "sudden destruction." OF COURSE all people left behind are not destroyed! Who ever said they were? Whoever said it did not read Revelation.

I am convinced, when God raises people who have been long dead, their resurrection is going to cause an earthquake. The longer they are dead, the greater the earthquake. As Matthew wrote, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." I believe God raised the elders of the Old Covenant then. Without a doubt, some from before the flood. 

Many of the dead in Christ have been dead a very long time, and the "dust" that once formed their bodies has been spread over distance. God is going to bring that dust together and reform that body that died and turned to dust, and bringing that dust together is going to cause a worldwide earthquake. Exactly the kind of earthquake John wrote would happen at the 6th seal start of God's wrath.

The rapture events will take place before that earthquake and CAUSE that earthquake. As confirmation, John then SAW the raptured church in heaven and wrote about it in chapter 7. 

The truth then is, SOME will die in that earthquake, but as a percentage of the population, probably small.  When the Old Testament saints rise, that is going to cause a MONUMENTAL earthqauke, just the quake we read about at the 7th vial that ends the week. That will be when God raises all the righteous from before the flood. The flood would end up scattering the dust of bodies for perhaps thousands of miles and perhaps very deep in the earth. But in a very short time, God will bring the dust of all those bodies together and reform them. This will cause an earthquake so terrible it will shake the mountains down into the earth. Yet, PEOPLE SURVIVE.

You are not following the scripture. Paul's "sudden destruction" comes when Wrath begins, and that is at the 6th seal? Are you going to just MOVE that 6th seal to the end as prewrathers do? If so, that would be proof positive your theory will be proven wrong. I can assure you, the 6th seal events must stay in the timeframe of Revelation chapter 6.

"Sudden Destruction"  These two words certainly do not tell us all people will be destruction. It only means destruction (of what is not said) that comes suddenly, without warning.

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

Luke 17:29-30KJV

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Peter 3:10KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.