Why Was There A Day Of Atonement PLUS People Giving Personal Sacrifice's?

[Anne2]

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

Wait a minute. I still haven't gotten and answer to my inquiry! I don't mind addressing this question but not at the expense of not reading evidence of two covenants made with Abraham. 

 

First, I did not say two components. I said several. More than two. 

Genesis 15:18-21
On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:  the Kenite and the Kenizzite and the Kadmonite  and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim  and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite."

Genesis 17:1-14
Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless. I will establish My covenant between Me and you, and I will multiply you exceedingly."  Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying, "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you will be the father of a multitude of nations. No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."  God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised. And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you. And every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations, a servant who is born in the house or who is bought with money from any foreigner, who is not of your descendants. A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."

Acts 3:25-26
You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’  God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness.”

Galatians 3:13-14
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree” — so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. 

 

• Land
• The displacement of enemies
• New name
• Fatherhood
• Seed
• Fruit
• Blessing
• Turning from wickedness
• Sojourning
• Conditions
• Circumcision
• Consequences
• Curse
• Sacrifice
• Spirit
• Gentiles
• Inheritance 

 

Several components. 

 

Can I get some parity? Where is the evidence of two covenants being made with Abraham? 

My silence on the matter is a consideration you may be correct in what you said to me Josheb. A reconsideration on my part is all. Several things came to my mind in reading your critique of my thoughts as I presented them. Which to me are an indication I was off the mark at least in these things.  I will concede your point about Sinai, and Abraham.

 

1. Hebrews speaks of Levi being yet in the loins of Abraham when Melchizedek met him. 

2.  Aaron and his sons , then the entire tribe of Levi were not counted among the the Israelites, nor did they inherit the land with Israel.

3. The priesthood was their inheritance, the tithe of children of Israel, their portion was the Lord and their portion

Heb 7:8  And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9  And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10  For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
 

 As I was considering the above, I asked concerning components.

I also stand corrected, in misrepresenting your position as two,  rather than several. 

Clearly this speaks of Genesis 15.

We do have in acts 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3  And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4  Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5  And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
6  And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.
7  And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.

Then, clearly speaking of Genesis 17

8  And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.
9  And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him,
10  And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house.
 Clearly Genesis 15 again

15  So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers,
16  And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem.
17   But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt,
 

Distinguishing inheritances.

Nu 18:20  And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.
Nu 18:23  But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.
Nu 18:24  But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Nu 26:62  And those that were numbered of them were twenty and three thousand, all males from a month old and upward: for they were not numbered among the children of Israel, because there was no inheritance given them among the children of Israel.
De 18:2  Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Anne2

[Anne2]

29 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I'm not following this post; its purpose or point. 

 

We were discussing the premise God made two covenants with Abraham. I don't see how anything in this post, not Genesis 15, Genesis 17, Numbers 18, Act 7, nor Hebrews 7 says there were two covenants made with Abraham. All of the many elements of the one Abrahamic covenant 1) testify to Christ crucified and resurrected, and the new covenant revealed thereof, which is (not was) a covenant foreknown from the foundation of the world. All the elements of all the God-made covenants testify to Jesus the resurrection, life and only means to God by grace through faith. I do not see any evidence two covenants were made with Abraham. 

Neither do I see an acknowledgement the covenant with Abraham has many components. I think I proved that to be the case, and did so with scripture. 

 

After having read these last few posts do you still see two covenants made with Abraham? Or do you now see the "covenant" of Hagar is simply a covenant of the flesh and human will that merits nothing in God's eyes? That "covenant" is a good way to get oneself destroyed. It may benefit and make one prosperous on this side of the grave (as it did with Ismael, Esau, and so many other people in life, but its end is destruction. 

 

Two covenants? Or one covenant with many components?

I am not opposed to the Abrahamic covenant being connected to Sinai with regards to his seed.  That is all. 

But I do still see two heirs, two inheritances. Components? I don't think I would phrase it that way. I still would see two portions of inheritance. One earthly worldly for a shadow, one heavenly and eternal the reality.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Anne2

[Anne2]

28 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Heirs and inheritances are not covenants. One covenant can have many heirs and many inheritances. I again make not that the author of Hebrews exposition of Hagar and the law (Sinai) are about the difference between works and faith, law and grace, human effort done in (sinful) human flesh (and in neglect of God's promise). That fleshly aspect(s) is not a God-initiated covenant with Abraham.

I am sorry Josheb. I believe Hebrews makes it clear they are a testament of as inheritance. Hebrews speaks of first and second. So, no ill will on my part or hard feelings. And I am hopeful on your end as well. But they are two testaments/covenants. I believe Acts presents it that way, as no inheritance for Abraham, nor the first, second, and third generations(patriarchs.) The testament/covenant Genesis, 17  circumcision speaks of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the patriarchs. It is from the first generation on.

Blessings to you :-).  

Edited March 24, 2022 by Anne2

[Heleadethme]

On 3/24/2022 at 9:51 AM, Anne2 said:

My silence on the matter is a consideration you may be correct in what you said to me Josheb. A reconsideration on my part is all. Several things came to my mind in reading your critique of my thoughts as I presented them. Which to me are an indication I was off the mark at least in these things.  I will concede your point about Sinai, and Abraham.

 

1. Hebrews speaks of Levi being yet in the loins of Abraham when Melchizedek met him. 

2.  Aaron and his sons , then the entire tribe of Levi were not counted among the the Israelites, nor did they inherit the land with Israel.

3. The priesthood was their inheritance, the tithe of children of Israel, their portion was the Lord and their portion

Heb 7:8  And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9  And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10  For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
 

 As I was considering the above, I asked concerning components.

I also stand corrected, in misrepresenting your position as two,  rather than several. 

Clearly this speaks of Genesis 15.

We do have in acts 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3  And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4  Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5  And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
6  And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.
7  And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.

Then, clearly speaking of Genesis 17

8  And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.
9  And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him,
10  And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house.
 Clearly Genesis 15 again

15  So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers,
16  And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem.
17   But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt,
 

Distinguishing inheritances.

Nu 18:20  And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.
Nu 18:23  But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.
Nu 18:24  But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Nu 26:62  And those that were numbered of them were twenty and three thousand, all males from a month old and upward: for they were not numbered among the children of Israel, because there was no inheritance given them among the children of Israel.
De 18:2  Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.

 

 

Not following the whole conversation here at the moment, but just taking this on it's own, it's in wonderful agreement with where Hebrews talks about the need for a change of priesthood....and Jesus being our High Priest of the tribe of Judah, not Levi.  Loving the simplicity of God's word, because it's about all my poor brain can handle these days.  

[Heleadethme]

On 3/22/2022 at 7:15 PM, Josheb said:

In other words, there are many reasons for understanding "Jesus trumps Zechariah." One of the base problems in modern futurism is the constant imposition of the old/Old onto the new/New rather than the reverse. The result is a Judaization of Christianity rather than a Christianizing of Judaism. ONE of the reasons Judaism should be "Christianized" is because of the things listed above. In addition, the Jews got a bunch of stuff wrong. Judaism is NOT a sound basis for understanding the whole of scripture. It's not even a good measure for understanding the Old Testament! The Old Testament bears repeated witness in itself to the errors in Jewish thought, doctrine, and practice! The New Testament reiterates this. Every time Jesus says, "You have heard it said                                        , But I say                                                  , Jesus teaches the truth. He corrects an error and preaches the true truth, the original meaning and substance of the Old. 

 

Just a drop-in comment on this brother, it's such a good point.  I agree it is sometimes helpful to stand in place of the Jews to try and understand how they would have understood certain things, but only up to a point....because the Jews need(ed) to have their minds renewed every bit as much as Gentiles.  In fact this was intended for the Jew first, then for the Gentile.  Many times the Jews of His day and even Jesus' own disciples themselves misconstrued what He was talking about.  (It's troubling to me when Christians are even studying rabbinic literature, especially considering Israel's apostasy and how Jewish thought became heavily tainted by their sojourn in Babylon unfortunately.)

Just wanted to get that off my chest, and not intending to take this off topic.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Heleadethme

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, Heleadethme said:

Just a drop-in comment on this brother, it's such a good point.  I agree it is sometimes helpful to stand in place of the Jews to try and understand how they would have understood certain things, but only up to a point....because the Jews need(ed) to have their minds renewed every bit as much as Gentiles.  In fact this was intended for the Jew first, then for the Gentile.  Many times the Jews of His day and even Jesus' own disciples themselves misconstrued what He was talking about.  (It's troubling to me when Christians are even studying rabbinic literature, especially considering Israel's apostasy and how Jewish thought became heavily tainted by their sojourn in Babylon unfortunately.)

Just wanted to get that off my chest, and not intending to take this off topic.

For me, the whole beginning of my comments are completely based upon reading what God says in the two covenants he made with Abraham. Abraham is scripture

Read each one as written for us. 

Gen 15:13  And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14  And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16  But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. {a burning … : Heb. a lamp of fire }
18  In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
 

It is a covenant which gives Abraham seed, as heirs. What he will do concerning that seed.

It is the fourth generation of his seed. 

Abraham will be dead.

Not only will Abraham be dead, this covenant does not concern the seed of the first, second or third generation of his seed.

That is all that we see in this covenant.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the twelve Patriarchs are not the seed addressed other than they will be dead. Joseph clearly knew it was promises made concerning the fourth generation.

Ge 50:25  And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.

They are dead when this covenant comes into force

Ex 1:6  And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.

Ex 13:19  And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

Genesis 17 Is the promise through Isaac. The first generation of his seed. Distinctly KINGS are given in this covenant. The land is promised to Abraham all of his seed, through this royal covenant

Ge 17:6  And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16  And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. {she … :

The women are an allegory between the two covenants/ heirs (Galatians)

Gen 17:18  And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

Kings...Here
19  And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

12 Princes...Here

20  And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Anne2