Where is the Lord`s Own Throne?

[Marilyn C]

30 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

When Lucifer tempted our Lord Jesus, he said that the kingdoms of this world were his and his to give away (Lk.4:5-8). Our Lord agreed with him by default. Later, our Lord called him "prince of this world". The word "Prince" in the Greek means "Chief Ruler". Revelation 11:15 shows that the kingdoms of this world were not the Lord's, because after the 1260 days of the Great Tribulation, only then did they BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord.

I am aware that the earth was created by Jesus, and that He is the Owner. But we speak of the GOVERNMENT IN PLACE - the kingdom. WE speak not of legal ownership but of WHOSE RULE and WHOSE THRONE is in place.

 

I agree that Satan holds sway over the world system, (1 John 5: 19)and offered it to Jesus. I also agree that Satan, the Prince of the power of the air, usurped the ruling positions of Principality and powers which God had created. (Col. 1: 16,  Eph. 6: 12)

However you said that Lucifer was the governor that God INITIALLY set over this planet.  

The governor that God initially set over this planet - EARTH, rebelled,held his citizens in prison, wasted his riches and thought to usurp God's position (Isa.14, Ezek.28).

Isaiah & Ezekiel reveal Lucifer as Kingpriest, but NOT as the governor of the earth. Where do you get that idea?

[AdHoc]

17 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

I agree that Satan holds sway over the world system, (1 John 5: 19)and offered it to Jesus. I also agree that Satan, the Prince of the power of the air, usurped the ruling positions of Principality and powers which God had created. (Col. 1: 16,  Eph. 6: 12)

However you said that Lucifer was the governor that God INITIALLY set over this planet.  

The governor that God initially set over this planet - EARTH, rebelled,held his citizens in prison, wasted his riches and thought to usurp God's position (Isa.14, Ezek.28).

Isaiah & Ezekiel reveal Lucifer as Kingpriest, but NOT as the governor of the earth. Where do you get that idea?

I'd say it is the other way around. A man, or an angel who makes an uncontested claim to the disposal of the kingdoms of this world, must not be shown that he is in power. The question that might be asked is, where did he get that power. Adam never had it, Noah never had it and Israel had power over itself for a short while. But Canaan is not the earth. But Isaiah 14 presents us with some interesting facts. That he was the chiefest of angels AND the the Covering Cherub only enhances Jude where Michael, who eventually displaces Lucifer from heaven, to show utter respect to Lucifer. But more than this, look at

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of HIS prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed THY land, and slain THY people

Now, since Genesis 1:2 there is no record of Satan doing these things. But Genesis 1:2 does show a chaos (tohu-bohu - Heb.). So there was a time BEFORE ADAM, when Satan destroyed cities, made the world a wilderness and kept prisoners captive, and is compared to other KINGS. Furthermore, his position was the fiery stones of God, and it was HIS Land and HIS people which he destroyed and slew. Colossians 1:16 and Ephesians 6:12 just confirm that Satan is part of the principalities that Christ made, and except for the Triune God, Lucifer had no equal.

If you couple these credentials with him being Prince of this world, and his claim in Luke Chapter, I think it is you that must show how he is NOT once governor of this earth.

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I'd say it is the other way around. A man, or an angel who makes an uncontested claim to the disposal of the kingdoms of this world, must not be shown that he is in power. The question that might be asked is, where did he get that power. Adam never had it, Noah never had it and Israel had power over itself for a short while. But Canaan is not the earth. But Isaiah 14 presents us with some interesting facts. That he was the chiefest of angels AND the the Covering Cherub only enhances Jude where Michael, who eventually displaces Lucifer from heaven, to show utter respect to Lucifer. But more than this, look at

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of HIS prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed THY land, and slain THY people

Now, since Genesis 1:2 there is no record of Satan doing these things. But Genesis 1:2 does show a chaos (tohu-bohu - Heb.). So there was a time BEFORE ADAM, when Satan destroyed cities, made the world a wilderness and kept prisoners captive, and is compared to other KINGS. Furthermore, his position was the fiery stones of God, and it was HIS Land and HIS people which he destroyed and slew. Colossians 1:16 and Ephesians 6:12 just confirm that Satan is part of the principalities that Christ made, and except for the Triune God, Lucifer had no equal.

If you couple these credentials with him being Prince of this world, and his claim in Luke Chapter, I think it is you that must show how he is NOT once governor of this earth.

Satan has sway over the world System, which is the moral aspect of man`s motives and actions.

`We know that we are of God, and the whole world (system) lies under the sway of the wicked one.` (1  John 5: 19)

This World System is dominated by the prevalence of sin with its own methods, manners, customs, fashions and laws. This System operates apart from God and offers position, possession and power, (authority) to those who serve its interests. 

Thus mankind in rebellion against God and controlled by demonic influences, are in darkness. This is a darkness of their minds which is self - seeking and foolish.

`...although they (man) knew God they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.` (Rom. 1: 21)

Satan usurped power and control over man in the garden. (Gen. 3) God dealt with Satan there giving him a specific time till he would be judged by Jesus. (Gen. 3: 15)

 

Col. 1: 16 shows us that it is the Lord who made authority positions - thrones, dominions, principalities and powers, and they are for Himself.

Satan was cast out of the highest realm and thus his authority was reduced. He usurped the Principality and powers position by deceiving man. And we know that the Lord eventually conquered Satan and now has legal right to judge all, in His timing. Meanwhile Satan only has power over those who are unregenerate.

Satan`s authority will soon be limited again, and he knows this.(Rev. 12: 7 - 12)

Thus we see that God is reducing Satan`s authority and power, which he usurped. Thus there is no indication that Satan was governor of this earth.

 

 

 

[AdHoc]

18 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Satan has sway over the world System, which is the moral aspect of man`s motives and actions.

`We know that we are of God, and the whole world (system) lies under the sway of the wicked one.` (1  John 5: 19)

This World System is dominated by the prevalence of sin with its own methods, manners, customs, fashions and laws. This System operates apart from God and offers position, possession and power, (authority) to those who serve its interests. 

Thus mankind in rebellion against God and controlled by demonic influences, are in darkness. This is a darkness of their minds which is self - seeking and foolish.

`...although they (man) knew God they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.` (Rom. 1: 21)

Satan usurped power and control over man in the garden. (Gen. 3) God dealt with Satan there giving him a specific time till he would be judged by Jesus. (Gen. 3: 15)

 

Col. 1: 16 shows us that it is the Lord who made authority positions - thrones, dominions, principalities and powers, and they are for Himself.

Satan was cast out of the highest realm and thus his authority was reduced. He usurped the Principality and powers position by deceiving man. And we know that the Lord eventually conquered Satan and now has legal right to judge all, in His timing. Meanwhile Satan only has power over those who are unregenerate.

Satan`s authority will soon be limited again, and he knows this.(Rev. 12: 7 - 12)

Thus we see that God is reducing Satan`s authority and power, which he usurped. Thus there is no indication that Satan was governor of this earth.

 

 

 

You not so elegantly ducked Isaiah 14. But let that be. We're missing something sister. Where is the word "usurp" in Genesis 3? What was the event where he usurped power? What power did Adam have? What power does a man have who is "made lower than the angels"? What power has a man who has not eaten of the Tree of Life? If Adam is proved to have power, what act of power overpowered him? And lastly, if Adam was commanded to "subdue", then a rebellion was in progress. What was the source of illegal authority?

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You not so elegantly ducked Isaiah 14. But let that be. We're missing something sister. Where is the word "usurp" in Genesis 3? What was the event where he usurped power? What power did Adam have? What power does a man have who is "made lower than the angels"? What power has a man who has not eaten of the Tree of Life? If Adam is proved to have power, what act of power overpowered him? And lastly, if Adam was commanded to "subdue", then a rebellion was in progress. What was the source of illegal authority?

Oh that wasn`t intentional. So thank you for pointing that out.

`Usurp,` relates to Satan deceiving Adam & Eve, (Gen. 3: 4 & 5) and getting them make a decision independent of God, and actually against God. Satan deceives the whole world, (Rev. 12: 9) and that means to mislead. Thus Satan was able to wrongfully appropriate power over man. And that is the meaning of `usurp,` to appropriate wrongfully. 

As we know ALL authority and power comes from God. However it is how that person or angel uses that authority that God will judge. The person or angel do not own the authority, it is given for the time that God says. (Gen. 3: 15)

Isaiah 14 reveals that Lucifer (later Satan) was given the highest authority of the angels. He had the authority and power of kingpriest. Michael did not become kingpriest but the archangel, the chief angel. I don`t see Michael `respecting` the devil, (Satan) for he was contending with him. Michael just pointed to the highest authority, God, whom Satan had to bow to. 

We know that Isaiah 14 is also referring to an actual man, the king of Babylon. And this is what is being said about him - Isa. 14:16 - 23.  There is no former `creation,` that is man`s imagination.

[Michael37]

On 2/11/2022 at 12:09 PM, Marilyn C said:

Where is the Lord`s Own Throne?

We know from God`s word that the Lord has a throne on the earth, in the New Jerusalem and also in the highest realm. The word `throne,` indicates authority. So where is the Lord`s own Throne, His seat of Power and authority?

I believe God`s word tells us that the Father has set His Son on Mount Zion in the angelic realm, the highest heaven.

`I have set my King on my holy hill of Mount Zion.` (Ps. 2: 6)

And we see in that this Mount Zion is in the angelic realm.

`you have come to Mount Zion and to...angels.....God ...to Jesus.` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

 

We are given the details of the Lord`s own throne in the highest heaven.

`Behold, a throne set in heaven and one sat on the throne. And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance;...` (Rev. 4: 2 & 3)

This is the throne the Father has SET for His Son. It is for a kingpriest. The throne represents kingship while the stones represent priesthood, for they are the first and last, incorporating all the others, on the High priest`s breastplate.

The jasper stone was for the tribe of Naphtali, (Ex. 28: 20, last stone, Num. 10: 27, last tribe). The meaning is prevailed, (Gen. 30: 8).

The sardius stone was for the tribe of Judah, (Ex. 28: 17, first stone, Num. 10: 14, the first tribe). The meaning is to use the hand, power and authority. It is from this tribe that the kings came.

 

Here are the two meanings - kingship and prevailing, conqueror.

`Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.` (Rev. 5: 5)

Thus we see that the Father has set His Son on Mount Zion as the highest KingPriest, who prevailed and conquered and thus is worthy to bring judgment.

 

There is more to discuss however that is a start. What can you contribute?

I like these verses:

Mat 5:33-35  "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.'  (34)  But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;  (35)  nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.

Isa 66:1  Thus says the LORD: "Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. Where is the house that you will build Me? And where is the place of My rest?

Psa 11:4  The LORD is in His holy temple, The LORD's throne is in heaven; His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men.

Heb 8:1-2  Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,  (2)  a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
 

 

[AdHoc]

17 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Oh that wasn`t intentional. So thank you for pointing that out.

`Usurp,` relates to Satan deceiving Adam & Eve, (Gen. 3: 4 & 5) and getting them make a decision independent of God, and actually against God. Satan deceives the whole world, (Rev. 12: 9) and that means to mislead. Thus Satan was able to wrongfully appropriate power over man. And that is the meaning of `usurp,` to appropriate wrongfully. 

As we know ALL authority and power comes from God. However it is how that person or angel uses that authority that God will judge. The person or angel do not own the authority, it is given for the time that God says. (Gen. 3: 15)

Isaiah 14 reveals that Lucifer (later Satan) was given the highest authority of the angels. He had the authority and power of kingpriest. Michael did not become kingpriest but the archangel, the chief angel. I don`t see Michael `respecting` the devil, (Satan) for he was contending with him. Michael just pointed to the highest authority, God, whom Satan had to bow to. 

We know that Isaiah 14 is also referring to an actual man, the king of Babylon. And this is what is being said about him - Isa. 14:16 - 23.  There is no former `creation,` that is man`s imagination.

O.K. Usurp means deceive ... But the dictionary says that "usurp" means;

"take (a position of power or importance) illegally or by force."

I don't see Lucifer doing that in Genesis 3, or any other text - till the Beast comes. No sister. Satan arrived on the scene in Eden with a position that Adam was to usurp. Satan, some 35 years after our Lord's ascension, is called, by the Holy Spirit, "Prince of the power of the air". His position is usurped by Christ MORALLY in Gethsemane and PHYSICALLY at Armageddon. The Overcomers of the Church - the Man-child displaces Lucifer from his right to heaven (the was not place for both - Rev.12). Michael displaces Lucifer PHYSICALLY from his heavenly perch. Christ displaces Satan from his earthly perch three and a half years later, to the abyss. Christ assigns him to the Lake of Fire a thousand years later than Armageddon. But from antiquity he is "Prince of this world".

There is no implication of a former creation. Just evidence that the earth is much older than Genesis 1:2. And I'm sure your going to agree when you hear that the literal Hebrew of Genesis 1:2 is;

"BUT the earth BECAME a tohu .... ." This indicates what Isaiah says in 45:18 that God did not create the earth a "tohu" (same word). It BECAME one - which ties neatly with Isaiah 14 about who made the earth a wilderness. That is, it is the same creation but something like a bad governor governed chaotically at an earlier date. That the earth was covered with water is a sure sign of God's judgment. So is darkness.

Satan had power long before Adam, and never gave it up till the Second Adam met him ... ON EARTH.

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, Michael37 said:

I like these verses:

Mat 5:33-35  "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.'  (34)  But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;  (35)  nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.

Isa 66:1  Thus says the LORD: "Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. Where is the house that you will build Me? And where is the place of My rest?

Psa 11:4  The LORD is in His holy temple, The LORD's throne is in heaven; His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men.

Heb 8:1-2  Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,  (2)  a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
 

 

Amen. You are correct. Good scriptures to show Jehovah's throne. But we discuss Christ's throne here. For the building of the Church He sits in His Father's throne. For the ruling of the earth He receives His own throne (Rev.4. Matt,25)

And note in Hebrews 8:1-2 the "we". That is, He is High Priest to the Church only - to answer and intercede for the "brethren" who are accused day and night by Satan. But when He leaves that position to return to earth, the Church is judged by Him and He becomes the Accuser. That is, He is High Priest NOW in heaven IN this age. But after He sets up His throne in Jerusalem, He is High Priest ON EARTH in the same place that Melchizedek was - Jerusalem.

[Michael37]

Here's another verse I like pertaining to the throne of the LORD:

Rev 5:6  And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

[Marilyn C]

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

O.K. Usurp means deceive ... But the dictionary says that "usurp" means;

"take (a position of power or importance) illegally or by force."

I don't see Lucifer doing that in Genesis 3, or any other text - till the Beast comes. No sister. Satan arrived on the scene in Eden with a position that Adam was to usurp. Satan, some 35 years after our Lord's ascension, is called, by the Holy Spirit, "Prince of the power of the air". His position is usurped by Christ MORALLY in Gethsemane and PHYSICALLY at Armageddon. The Overcomers of the Church - the Man-child displaces Lucifer from his right to heaven (the was not place for both - Rev.12). Michael displaces Lucifer PHYSICALLY from his heavenly perch. Christ displaces Satan from his earthly perch three and a half years later, to the abyss. Christ assigns him to the Lake of Fire a thousand years later than Armageddon. But from antiquity he is "Prince of this world".

There is no implication of a former creation. Just evidence that the earth is much older than Genesis 1:2. And I'm sure your going to agree when you hear that the literal Hebrew of Genesis 1:2 is;

"BUT the earth BECAME a tohu .... ." This indicates what Isaiah says in 45:18 that God did not create the earth a "tohu" (same word). It BECAME one - which ties neatly with Isaiah 14 about who made the earth a wilderness. That is, it is the same creation but something like a bad governor governed chaotically at an earlier date. That the earth was covered with water is a sure sign of God's judgment. So is darkness.

Satan had power long before Adam, and never gave it up till the Second Adam met him ... ON EARTH.

And that is what Satan did - he took a position of power illegally. God never gave Satan that authority and power Satan deceived man and thus was able to hold sway over him and his descendants. Satan used a lie to deceive man, and that is not `legal,` right under God`s rulership. 

Yes God`s word calls Satan `the Prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience.` (Eph. 2: 2) And praise the Lord Christ has won the victory over Him. That we can agree on I see.