John 8:44

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Michael37 said:

I raised my hand with the correct answer regarding the identifying of Satan as a murderer from the beginning.

I believe Scripture teaches Lucifer was perfect in all his ways and did not act in opposition to God until he allowed pride of place to make him jealous of Adam and Eve due to their relationship with the Lord. Having decided to contradict God and deceive Adam and Eve he become Satan the adversary, a beginning that was motivated to cause the spiritual and physical death of previously perfect mankind.  

You raised your hand but your answer was wrong.  See @Starise post below.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Starise said:

I don't believe there is a direct answer to this question in scripture.  There might be a partial answer or a lead. 

I agree.

3 hours ago, Starise said:

Jesus accuses any man who looks on a woman who isn't his wife with lust with the sin of adultery.  God sees the heart before the action. God seen the sin in Satan's heart before he rebelled.  What was that sin?  Must have been murder for one.

This is where I differ from your explanation.  By your reasoning, God is the author of murder and all types of sin.

3 hours ago, Starise said:

There was a battle in heaven.  In any battle there are usually casualties.  If Satan could have killed God Almighty I believe he would have.  How else do dictators rise to power?  They don't hesitate to kill in order to take power.  One of the first things Hitler did when he came to power was to have all of the opposition killed.

Murder was in Satan's heart so that makes him a murderer.

The Bible states that Satan was perfect when he was created. 

(Ezekiel 28:11)  Moreover, the word of the LORD came to me:
(Ezekiel 28:12)  “Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: “You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
(Ezekiel 28:13)  You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.
(Ezekiel 28:14)  You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
(Ezekiel 28:15)  You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.
(Ezekiel 28:16)  In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(Ezekiel 28:17)  Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you.
(Ezekiel 28:18)  By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought fire out from your midst; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
(Ezekiel 28:19)  All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever.”  [ESV]

One of the things both you and @Michael37 have to reconcile is John with Ezekiel.  I don't see that either of you have done that.  It is obvious to me that the murder in Satan's "heart" had its beginning before Genesis 1:1.

[Michael37]

5 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

The Bible states that Satan was perfect when he was created. 

Satan means Adversary, namely to God, so it was Lucifer who was created perfect and he was not Satan until he opposed God in Eden.  

The two analogies with the king of Tyre and king of Babylon give us a timeline:

Eze 28:12-15  "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.  (13)  You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.  (14)  "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.  (15)  You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

Isa 14:12-14  "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!  (13)  For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;  (14)  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Satan means Adversary, namely to God, so it was Lucifer who was created perfect and he was not Satan until he opposed God in Eden.  

The two analogies with the king of Tyre and king of Babylon give us a timeline:

Eze 28:12-15  "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.  (13)  You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.  (14)  "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.  (15)  You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

Isa 14:12-14  "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!  (13)  For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;  (14)  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'

The term "lucifer" is not a term or proper name recognized in the ESV or NASB bibles I use.  Its origin is explained in the following link: Lucifer. 

The key to understanding Satan is that he had free will from his creation.  If murder was in his heart from the his beginning, he (Satan) put it there.  Murder was conceived by Satan before our creation.  He is the author of the chaos alluded to in Genesis 1:2 bringing the judgement upon the original creation of Genesis 1:1.  Our fossil record indicates death before Adam.

Edited March 19, 2022 by Saved.One.by.Grace
Added content.

[HAZARD]

The devil told Eve that if she ate from the forbidden tree, “YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE.” God had told Adam that he would die if he ate of that tree. Genesis 2:16,17 says, “And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for IN THE DAY THAT THOU EATEST THEREOF THOU SHALT SURELY DIE.”

Despite what God had clearly said, the devil lied and told Eve that she would not die if she ate of the tree. Even though they did not immediately die they did eventually die. Thus, the devil was responsible for the death of Adam and Eve and all mankind because of his lie. Therefore He was a murderer and a lier from the beginning.

[Michael37]

9 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

The term "lucifer" is not a term or proper name recognized in the ESV or NASB bibles I use.  Its origin is explained in the following link: Lucifer. 

The key to understanding Satan is that he had free will from his creation.  If murder was in his heart from the his beginning, he (Satan) put it there.  Murder was conceived by Satan before our creation.  He is the author of the chaos alluded to in Genesis 1:2 bringing the judgement upon the original creation of Genesis 1:1.  Our fossil record indicates death before Adam.

I cannot defer to your assertion on this matter, @Saved.One.by.Grace, just as you can't have your cake and eat it too. 

The translation pathway that gives us the name Lucifer makes no difference to the fact that "Lucifer" was perfect in all his ways until iniquity was found in him, Ezekiel 28:15. At that time the Garden of Eden had been created and he had walked in it, Ezekiel 28:13.

[Selah7]

Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

- 2 Peter 3:1-9

[Guest]

On 3/19/2022 at 6:02 AM, Michael37 said:

I cannot defer to your assertion on this matter, @Saved.One.by.Grace, just as you can't have your cake and eat it too. 

The translation pathway that gives us the name Lucifer makes no difference to the fact that "Lucifer" was perfect in all his ways until iniquity was found in him, Ezekiel 28:15. At that time the Garden of Eden had been created and he had walked in it, Ezekiel 28:13.

The translation you're using comes from Roman Catholic theologians and those that hold to King James Only doctrine, as already detailed.  The proper name Lucifer is not used by the  Jews and is only once used by the early post resurrection day NT theologians, later post resurrection theologians, and King James interpretations which does not provide enough basis for your assertion.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Saved.One.by.Grace
Clarity

[Guest]

11 hours ago, HAZARD said:

The devil told Eve that if she ate from the forbidden tree, “YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE.” God had told Adam that he would die if he ate of that tree. Genesis 2:16,17 says, “And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for IN THE DAY THAT THOU EATEST THEREOF THOU SHALT SURELY DIE.”

Despite what God had clearly said, the devil lied and told Eve that she would not die if she ate of the tree. Even though they did not immediately die they did eventually die. Thus, the devil was responsible for the death of Adam and Eve and all mankind because of his lie. Therefore He was a murderer and a lier from the beginning.

Do you deny death before Genesis 1:3?  Are fossils all fakes?

[Guest]

On 3/19/2022 at 1:57 PM, Josheb said:

That is incorrect. Satan is a created creature. His existence does not precede creation. Remember: satan is the serpent in the garden. Remember EVERYTHING God made in the first six days was good. Therefore, whatever murder occurred had to occur after the creature satan was created and after the six days of creation. If it was a murder prior to his being placed in the garden, then that would explain his being cast down and his being place in Eden under the authority of Adam and Eve. To my knowledge scripture does not explicitly declare who or what was murdered so any answer on our part is speculative at best. I'm inclined to go with Micahel37's answer (Cain) but I also have some thoughts couched in the fact God is the measure of "beginning," not you, me, or satan, and from God's perspective outside of time the whole spectrum of death related to disobedience or sin is murderous and since satan is the first sinner that is the reference Jesus is making. 

We have some commonality of beliefs here based on your writing.  Where we agree:

• Satan is a perfect created creature by God.  (Ezekiel 28:11-14)
• He is blameless and had free will.  Any other position would require you to put blame on God, which I don't for 1 second believe you are.  (Ezekiel 28:15a)

Where we disagree:

• Satan is present at the creation of the cosmos.  (Genesis 1:1) 
• Satan commits sin for which he is justifiably blamed for in Holy Scriptures.  (Ezekiel 28:15b)
• This happened before the events of (Genesis 1:3).
• Genesis 1:2 shows a judgement on Creation.  The waters present show a judgement of some kind upon the Earth.  (Genesis 1:2).  The Holy Scriptures show that the water was already created AND something occurred that required God's divine intervention.
• Since science does not support a 6000 year old Earth and YEC have a tendency to lump everything into Day 1, they are forced to cram a lot of events into the six day creation event and discount all scientific reason that proves there WAS death of non-humans before the fall events.  In so doing, they have painted themselves in a corner forcing the false belief that all fossils are fake.
• Satan brought death to humans because Adam and Eve violated God's edict.  This was Satan's choice since he was created with free will.