Why Have Conservatives Been Unable To Stop The Liberal Revolution That Threatens Their Culture?

[JimmyB]

13 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Your attempt to label everything you don't like as "conservative" makes no sense. But its irrelevant. Wrong is wrong, no matter what affiliation a person has.

I would want this country to return to a Christian nation because that's when people have freedom to live their lives. Today people are being sued and fired simply for having opinions. Christians have always supported freedom as long as it doesn't conflict with what God says is wrong.

The so called "separation of church and state" was invented by the courts, NOT by the founding fathers or the people. Freedom of religion was SO important to our founding fathers that they made it the very FIRST of the protected freedoms we are supposed to have. The bible SHOULD be taught in schools as it was 200 years ago. Christians DO get elected to positions of power when they run, but so few run, we aren't making much difference. Too many Christians are scared to run for office, so things only get worse. 

Of course preaching the gospel is extremely important, but so is effecting change in the world. The american church seems lazy. I know MANY people who call themselves Christians, but not a single one volunteers time, or money, to make anything outside their time better for others. It just makes me sad to see a lukewarm church in America. 

Don't you see thee irony in your statement? "Freedom of religion was SO important to our founding fathers that they made it the very FIRST of the protected freedoms we are supposed to have. The bible SHOULD be taught in schools".  The two sentences are contradictory!  Forcing non-Christian children to be taught the Bible is the opposite of freedom of religion!

And I will continue to mention "conservative" when it is appropriate.  "Liberal" is mentioned far more often, and always as a derogatory term.  Many people equate "conservative" with Christian values, which is nonsense.  As I pointed out (and will continue to point out) Jesus was a liberal who opposed the conservative Jewish leaders of His time, just the way today's conservatives have distorted American values.

Your saying "I would want this country to return to a Christian nation because that's when people have freedom to live their lives." is nonsense.  People have more freedom today than ever before.  Remember slavery? Remember organized violence against workers?  Do you think that Martin Luther King, a Christian pastor, was wrong?

"Today people are being sued and fired simply for having opinions" is nonsense.. Christians have not supported freedom as long as it doesn't conflict with what God says is wrong. For examples, as I already pointed out, slavery and civil rights.

If you took a survey of the religion of elected officials, you would see the absurdity of the statement "Christians DO get elected to positions of power when they run, but so few run, we aren't making much difference."

"The American church seems lazy" to you perhaps, but I disagree.  I know MANY people who call themselves Christians, and volunteer time and money to make lives better for others.  Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong crowd!

[JimmyB]

On 8/14/2023 at 2:23 AM, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Maybe, Things  "might" get worse no matter what, but I don't see the Church making any attempt to stop it. We are supposed to oppose evil and I see the Church compromising with it. The church fears man more than God. We have an abundance of prosperity preachers in the megachurches. We have a lack of powerful Christians willing to publicly condemn what is going on in  society. Churches are not condemning sin and lack of obedience to God's word. People don't witness their faith or preach the gospel. Parents don't tell their kids to minister to their unsaved teachers and friends at school. Pastors won't condemn certain sins in their sermons. Most Christians wont get involved in politics. These are a few of my many observations as the Church sits on its hands while the servants of Satan fill every hole in society that Christians refuse to fill. 1/3 of all Americans claim to go to Church, yet groups far smaller are making all the changes in our society because they are fighting for what they believe while we cower behind church doors waiting for the end to come. We have a very disobedient church here in America.

I totally disagree!  See my post above.

It makes me sad that you are so judgmental about the body of Christ.  QAs Jesus said, “Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. 2 For the judgment you give will be the judgment you get, and the measure you give will be the measure you get." Matthew 7:1-2

And saying "Parents don't tell their kids to minister to their unsaved teachers and friends at school" is against the law (freedom of religion!).  Should Muslim or Buddhist kids do the same thing?

"Pastors won't condemn certain sins in their sermons" is totally unfounded. 

And finally, you wrote "We have a very disobedient church here in America."  WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE THE BODY OF CHRIST?  JESUS IS LORD AND THE SHEPHERD OF HIS FLOCK.

[teddyv]

3 hours ago, FJK said:

Where can I find a verification of that statistic?

I may have underestimated somewhat on my recollection. Here is an article that discusses it. Several other sources have numbers around 17-20% by mid-1700's.  But another I found claims higher. There might be more nuance to the data, and church attendance is not the ultimate metric of Christianity. Another interesting read on early Christians in the US but without any real numbers (early colonial period and on)

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 8/15/2023 at 7:23 PM, teddyv said:

That will be a complete and abject failure this side of the Second Coming. That you think this would work is contrary to all examples of human nature.

The US never was Christian nation outside of a generally homogenous cultural version. Even at inception, less than 10% of the population were regular church attendees.

Your 1st comment makes no sense at all. Nothing we as a people do will have any effect on the second coming. 

 

And YES America WAS a Christian nation at its founding. Its very sad that major piece of history has apparently been erased from modern history books. But if you actually do the research, our entire legal system and form of Government was taken from scripture. Plus every college for the first 100 years was a christian college and every school child read the bible in school. Plus thousands of archived papers from the founding fathers prove that God was VERY important in their lives. 

You can't use church attendance as your measurement. That's very inaccurate. 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 8/16/2023 at 8:29 AM, JimmyB said:

Don't you see thee irony in your statement? "Freedom of religion was SO important to our founding fathers that they made it the very FIRST of the protected freedoms we are supposed to have. The bible SHOULD be taught in schools".  The two sentences are contradictory!  Forcing non-Christian children to be taught the Bible is the opposite of freedom of religion!

And I will continue to mention "conservative" when it is appropriate.  "Liberal" is mentioned far more often, and always as a derogatory term.  Many people equate "conservative" with Christian values, which is nonsense.  As I pointed out (and will continue to point out) Jesus was a liberal who opposed the conservative Jewish leaders of His time, just the way today's conservatives have distorted American values.

Your saying "I would want this country to return to a Christian nation because that's when people have freedom to live their lives." is nonsense.  People have more freedom today than ever before.  Remember slavery? Remember organized violence against workers?  Do you think that Martin Luther King, a Christian pastor, was wrong?

"Today people are being sued and fired simply for having opinions" is nonsense.. Christians have not supported freedom as long as it doesn't conflict with what God says is wrong. For examples, as I already pointed out, slavery and civil rights.

If you took a survey of the religion of elected officials, you would see the absurdity of the statement "Christians DO get elected to positions of power when they run, but so few run, we aren't making much difference."

"The American church seems lazy" to you perhaps, but I disagree.  I know MANY people who call themselves Christians, and volunteer time and money to make lives better for others.  Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong crowd!

The bible should be taught in schools not only for the salvation of our children, but because it is the best ruler of moral conduct we have. There is no better standard for morality. Bible reading WAS mandatory at the beginning of our country, and I firmly believe people then had far more morality than people do today. 

I don't know whether Jesus was a liberal by the standards of his day, and its irrelevant. Neither party seems to want to live his standard. But I do see more examples of christian belief and living in the Republican party. 

Slavery at the time was accepted by most people, even the bible refuses to condemn it. That DOESN'T mean its right, but you can't use modern standards to judge people long ago. I don't know of anything Dr King said that was wrong, but as a human he was capable of being wrong. 

Christians HAVE been fired. Many Christian teachers have been fired for not teaching evolution or nowadays for their stance on this fictional gender pronoun garbage. Companies refusing to support LGBT have been sued. There are news stories about it, so yes it is happening. 

Maybe I do hang out with the wrong people. I see poor and needy people in my town and there are many churches, but the 2 groups never seem to meet. I wonder about all the money going into those churches because it never seems to reach the needy. Who knows? Maybe I'm wrong, but I will retain my opinions until God convicts me of them. 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 8/16/2023 at 8:39 AM, JimmyB said:

I totally disagree!  See my post above.

It makes me sad that you are so judgmental about the body of Christ.  QAs Jesus said, “Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. 2 For the judgment you give will be the judgment you get, and the measure you give will be the measure you get." Matthew 7:1-2

And saying "Parents don't tell their kids to minister to their unsaved teachers and friends at school" is against the law (freedom of religion!).  Should Muslim or Buddhist kids do the same thing?

"Pastors won't condemn certain sins in their sermons" is totally unfounded. 

And finally, you wrote "We have a very disobedient church here in America."  WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE THE BODY OF CHRIST?  JESUS IS LORD AND THE SHEPHERD OF HIS FLOCK.

Can you explain what Matthew 7:1-2 means, because its NOT a blanket statement about judging. If it were, dozens of other passages that talk about judging correctly would have to be thrown out, including John 7:24 where Jesus himself told people to judge correctly. 

There is NOT a single law on the books in ANY state that prevents school kids from witnessing to fellow students or teachers. In fact every year millions of students have the "meet me at the pole" event where they gather for prayer at the school flagpole. Many schools have bible clubs because the courts told schools they HAVE to allow that. As recently as 1980, the SCOTUS ruled on a case that said the Bible CAN be taught in schools. Anyone who takes longer than 30 seconds on reading the 1st amendment can see the words ONLY prohibit the government from interfering in the church, not the other way around. 

Its possible I'm wrong about my opinion of the body of Christ. I don't know every church and christian in the country. I can only go by what I see myself. But what I see at least in my area is churches that don't help people, churches that judge who should come in their doors, churches that teach a happiness message instead of the gospel. But i also see in the media that sin is rampant and seemingly unrestrained in this nation and Christians are being attacked for their faith, and I don't see how that's possible if 100 Million people in this country attend church. Christians is the biggest majority in the country, yet various small groups are making the laws and policies and scaring the church into silence.

[JimmyB]

3 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

The bible should be taught in schools not only for the salvation of our children, but because it is the best ruler of moral conduct we have. There is no better standard for morality. Bible reading WAS mandatory at the beginning of our country, and I firmly believe people then had far more morality than people do today. 

I don't know whether Jesus was a liberal by the standards of his day, and its irrelevant. Neither party seems to want to live his standard. But I do see more examples of christian belief and living in the Republican party. 

Slavery at the time was accepted by most people, even the bible refuses to condemn it. That DOESN'T mean its right, but you can't use modern standards to judge people long ago. I don't know of anything Dr King said that was wrong, but as a human he was capable of being wrong. 

Christians HAVE been fired. Many Christian teachers have been fired for not teaching evolution or nowadays for their stance on this fictional gender pronoun garbage. Companies refusing to support LGBT have been sued. There are news stories about it, so yes it is happening. 

Maybe I do hang out with the wrong people. I see poor and needy people in my town and there are many churches, but the 2 groups never seem to meet. I wonder about all the money going into those churches because it never seems to reach the needy. Who knows? Maybe I'm wrong, but I will retain my opinions until God convicts me of them. 

It is a violation of the first amendment for the Bible to be read in public schools.  If you disagree, then what is your argument atgainst5 reading the Koran in public schools also?

The rest5 of your post doesn't deserve a response.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 8/18/2023 at 8:04 AM, JimmyB said:

It is a violation of the first amendment for the Bible to be read in public schools.  If you disagree, then what is your argument atgainst5 reading the Koran in public schools also?

The rest5 of your post doesn't deserve a response.

You seem to keep repeating yourself to convince yourself that what you say is true. I have stated facts that can easily be verified. You keep claiming its illegal for the bible to be read in school, YET I have proven that its not.

 

The founding fathers who actually wrote the 1st amendment ALSO mandated that every child in school read the bible. No judge seemed to have an issue with this as it remained that way for over 100 years. Also, as recently as 1980, the Supreme court ruled that the bible may be read in public schools. That ruling has not yet been overturned. 

 

My argument against the Koran should be obvious. America was NOT founded on Islam and the Koran was created by people of violence who still live by violence. It is not in any way a moral book for children. Ironically there HAVE been religion in schools. Some districts have actually taught Islam under the banner of social studies classes. Also, TM, Yoga, Wicca, Darwinism, Humanism, Atheism,  have all been taught under different names in schools. So it seems people ONLY have a problem with religion in schools when its Christianity. 

[JimmyB]

3 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

You seem to keep repeating yourself to convince yourself that what you say is true. I have stated facts that can easily be verified. You keep claiming its illegal for the bible to be read in school, YET I have proven that its not.

 

The founding fathers who actually wrote the 1st amendment ALSO mandated that every child in school read the bible. No judge seemed to have an issue with this as it remained that way for over 100 years. Also, as recently as 1980, the Supreme court ruled that the bible may be read in public schools. That ruling has not yet been overturned. 

 

My argument against the Koran should be obvious. America was NOT founded on Islam and the Koran was created by people of violence who still live by violence. It is not in any way a moral book for children. Ironically there HAVE been religion in schools. Some districts have actually taught Islam under the banner of social studies classes. Also, TM, Yoga, Wicca, Darwinism, Humanism, Atheism,  have all been taught under different names in schools. So it seems people ONLY have a problem with religion in schools when its Christianity. 

You have not stated facts, you have stated your opinion. You seem to keep repeating yourself to convince yourself that what you say is true.  It isn't.

Of course the Bible can be read in schools -- in courses that teach comparative religion.  The same can be said of the Koran, the writings of Buddha, and others.  But the government cannot establish any religion as the religion of the state, in schools or anywhere else.

You wrote that the founding fathers who actually wrote the 1st amendment ALSO mandated that every child in school read the bible.  Where is that written?  It clearly violates the first amendment! 

Your argument against the Koran is off-topic and false.

And your claim that "It seems that you have a problem with religion in schools when its Christianity" is a personal criticism, which I have reported.

[JimmyB]

Religion was addressed in the First Amendment in the following familiar words: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." In notes for his June 8, 1789, speech introducing the Bill of Rights, Madison indicated his opposition to a "national" religion.

If the founders were dogmatic about anything, it was the belief that a person's faith should not be intruded upon by government and that religious doctrine should not be written into governance.

Both Jefferson and fellow Virginian James Madison felt that state support for a particular religion or for any religion was improper. They argued that compelling citizens to support through taxation a faith they did not follow violated their natural right to religious liberty.

The members of the Constitutional Convention, the group charged with authoring the Constitution, believed that the government should have no power to influence its citizens toward or away from a religion. The principle of separating church from state was integral to the framers' understanding of religious freedom.

The Supreme Court has ruled that the 14th Amendment (ratified in 1868) requires states to guarantee fundamental rights such as the First Amendment's prohibition against the establishment of religion. This means that states, like the federal government, can "make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

The most enduring and controversial issue related to school-sponsored religious activities is classroom prayer. In Engel v. Vitale (1962), the Supreme Court held that the Establishment Clause prohibited the recitation of a school-sponsored prayer in public schools.

Under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, public school officials cannot lead students in prayer, participate in prayer with students, or organize, direct, or encourage students to engage in prayer.

The founding fathers' purposes were clear. They had no intention to found the country according to Christian doctrines.

In Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39 (1980), the Supreme Court ruled that a Kentucky law that required the posting of the Ten Commandments on the wall of every public school classroom in the state violated the establishment clause of the First Amendment because the purpose of the display was essentially religious.

The majority of the Supreme Court, via Justice Black, held that school-sponsored prayer violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

Politically, Jefferson believed that the new nation required complete religious freedom and separation of church and state. Many historians note that the broad diversity of ethnicities and religions in the thirteen colonies meant that religious freedom was necessary if the union was to be successful.

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits government from encouraging or promoting (“establishing”) religion in any way. That's why we don't have an official religion of the United States. This means that the government may not give financial support to any religion.

In Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962), the Supreme Court ruled that school-sponsored prayer in public schools violated the establishment clause of the First Amendment.

The Founders of this nation explicitly included Islam in their vision of the future of the republic. Freedom of religion, as they conceived it, encompassed it. Adherents of the faith were, with some exceptions, regarded as men and women who would make law-abiding, productive citizens.

Under the “establishment” clause of the First Amendment, and in line with U.S. Supreme Court rulings, public schools may not impose prayer or other religious practices on students, even if students are not required to participate.

[Posted from various online sources]

Edited August 22, 2023 by JimmyB