“He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire”

[RR144]

What did John the Baptist mean (Matt. 3:11, 12) when he said of Jesus: “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire”?
 
To understand John’s words we must bear in mind that he was addressing mixed classes of the Jews. There came out to him people of Jerusalem, and all Judea, and all the region round about Jordan, including Pharisees and Sadducees (vs. 5, 7). John came as the introducer of Jesus and the gospel, and, looking forward, he prophetically foretold the results. “Now also the axe [of Divine judgment] is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit [the fruitage of righteousness] is hewn down, and cast into the fire” (v. 10). Then, speaking of Jesus he says: “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit with fire.” Some of his hearers included in the “you” would receive Jesus, and these (as Israelites indeed) would be baptized with the Holy Spirit (at Pentecost), but others whom he was then addressing would not receive Jesus; hence when their house (nominal Fleshly Israel) would be left desolate (Matt. 23:37-39), they would be baptized with fire—the judgments which came upon them as a people after their rejection of Jesus—not literal fire—but the fire of God’s wrath, the fire of trouble that culminated in the destruction of the Jewish polity in 69-73 A.D.
 
That the above is the correct understanding is proven further by v. 12, which is but a repetition of the same thoughts in other words: “Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor [this shows the main work of Jesus during his 3 1/2 years’ ministry; as a winnower He separated the wheat of the Jewish people from the chaff], and gather his wheat [the true Israelites indeed] into the garner [the Christian Church]; but he will burn up the chaff [the rest of the nation, the refuse] with unquenchable fire [sure destruction that nothing could prevent—the great fire of religious and political contention which destroyed the Jewish nation].” Thus John told his mixed audience that, whereas he baptized with water, Jesus would baptize them with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Some received the one and others the other kind of baptism. We believe it is a serious mistake for any of God’s people to pray for a baptism of fire, for, unwittingly, they are actually praying for a curse instead of a blessing. It is to their advantage it God does not answer such a petition.

[missmuffet]

29 minutes ago, RR144 said:

What did John the Baptist mean (Matt. 3:11, 12) when he said of Jesus: “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire”?
 
To understand John’s words we must bear in mind that he was addressing mixed classes of the Jews. There came out to him people of Jerusalem, and all Judea, and all the region round about Jordan, including Pharisees and Sadducees (vs. 5, 7). John came as the introducer of Jesus and the gospel, and, looking forward, he prophetically foretold the results. “Now also the axe [of Divine judgment] is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit [the fruitage of righteousness] is hewn down, and cast into the fire” (v. 10). Then, speaking of Jesus he says: “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit with fire.” Some of his hearers included in the “you” would receive Jesus, and these (as Israelites indeed) would be baptized with the Holy Spirit (at Pentecost), but others whom he was then addressing would not receive Jesus; hence when their house (nominal Fleshly Israel) would be left desolate (Matt. 23:37-39), they would be baptized with fire—the judgments which came upon them as a people after their rejection of Jesus—not literal fire—but the fire of God’s wrath, the fire of trouble that culminated in the destruction of the Jewish polity in 69-73 A.D.
 
That the above is the correct understanding is proven further by v. 12, which is but a repetition of the same thoughts in other words: “Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor [this shows the main work of Jesus during his 3 1/2 years’ ministry; as a winnower He separated the wheat of the Jewish people from the chaff], and gather his wheat [the true Israelites indeed] into the garner [the Christian Church]; but he will burn up the chaff [the rest of the nation, the refuse] with unquenchable fire [sure destruction that nothing could prevent—the great fire of religious and political contention which destroyed the Jewish nation].” Thus John told his mixed audience that, whereas he baptized with water, Jesus would baptize them with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Some received the one and others the other kind of baptism. We believe it is a serious mistake for any of God’s people to pray for a baptism of fire, for, unwittingly, they are actually praying for a curse instead of a blessing. It is to their advantage it God does not answer such a petition.

The Spirit is fire in 3 ways:

1. He brings God's presence.

2. God's passion.

3. God's purity.

God's purpose is to purify us, the Spirit is the agent of our sanctification. God uses the Spirit to remove our sin from us. His fire cleanses and refines. 

[Ancient]

1 hour ago, RR144 said:

What did John the Baptist mean (Matt. 3:11, 12) when he said of Jesus: “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire”?
 
To understand John’s words we must bear in mind that he was addressing mixed classes of the Jews. There came out to him people of Jerusalem, and all Judea, and all the region round about Jordan, including Pharisees and Sadducees (vs. 5, 7). John came as the introducer of Jesus and the gospel, and, looking forward, he prophetically foretold the results. “Now also the axe [of Divine judgment] is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit [the fruitage of righteousness] is hewn down, and cast into the fire” (v. 10). Then, speaking of Jesus he says: “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit with fire.” Some of his hearers included in the “you” would receive Jesus, and these (as Israelites indeed) would be baptized with the Holy Spirit (at Pentecost), but others whom he was then addressing would not receive Jesus; hence when their house (nominal Fleshly Israel) would be left desolate (Matt. 23:37-39), they would be baptized with fire—the judgments which came upon them as a people after their rejection of Jesus—not literal fire—but the fire of God’s wrath, the fire of trouble that culminated in the destruction of the Jewish polity in 69-73 A.D.
 
That the above is the correct understanding is proven further by v. 12, which is but a repetition of the same thoughts in other words: “Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor [this shows the main work of Jesus during his 3 1/2 years’ ministry; as a winnower He separated the wheat of the Jewish people from the chaff], and gather his wheat [the true Israelites indeed] into the garner [the Christian Church]; but he will burn up the chaff [the rest of the nation, the refuse] with unquenchable fire [sure destruction that nothing could prevent—the great fire of religious and political contention which destroyed the Jewish nation].” Thus John told his mixed audience that, whereas he baptized with water, Jesus would baptize them with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Some received the one and others the other kind of baptism. We believe it is a serious mistake for any of God’s people to pray for a baptism of fire, for, unwittingly, they are actually praying for a curse instead of a blessing. It is to their advantage it God does not answer such a petition.

Yes and in the Greek to word used for "and" can also mean "or" so in the context of judgement at the end of the age and the book of Revelation the lake of fire. Yeshua is the judge all judgement has been given to Him. If you are not redeemed by the blood of the Passover Lamb Yeshua, notice how it does not say the Easter Bunny Yeshua, and redeemed by the eating of chocolate ishtar eggs. You will be immersed/baptized in the lake of fire with Satan and the fallen angles/demons. So I would rather be immersed in water and the Holy Spirit, than immersed in fire. As liked stated in the op there are other parables that confirm the fire, as not a good thing.

Shalom

[Ancient]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

The Spirit is fire in 3 ways:

1. He brings God's presence.

2. God's passion.

3. God's purity.

God's purpose is to purify us, the Spirit is the agent of our sanctification. God uses the Spirit to remove our sin from us. His fire cleanses and refines. 

Yes correct but in the Hebrew mindset and language there is more often than not a positive and negative. The baptism in fire in the context of the op is negative, however there are other times when fire is talked about it is positive but through a negative experience like being purged and purified by fire. So one cannot just look at fire as good all the time and connected to the Holy Spirit all the time context, context, context. I mean I don't think anyone in their right mind would want anything to do with the fire of gehenna. Which was a real place outside of Jerusalem by the way, not some mythical place called hell.

 

Shalom

[missmuffet]

48 minutes ago, Ancient said:

Yes correct but in the Hebrew mindset and language there is more often than not a positive and negative. The baptism in fire in the context of the op is negative, however there are other times when fire is talked about it is positive but through a negative experience like being purged and purified by fire. So one cannot just look at fire as good all the time and connected to the Holy Spirit all the time context, context, context. I mean I don't think anyone in their right mind would want anything to do with the fire of gehenna. Which was a real place outside of Jerusalem by the way, not some mythical place called hell.

 

Shalom

The fire mentioned above is regarding the Holy Spirit not Hades or Hell. 

[Ancient]

19 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

The fire mentioned above is regarding the Holy Spirit not Hades or Hell. 

Sorry you missed the point with regards to fire being positive and negative. I was simply pointing out from your reply that fire is negative also as stated in the original post. The original post was talking about judgement fire. Also there is no hell or hades they are Greek words used to try and convey the Hebrew word sheol meaning the pit, grave (unknown place) nothing more. This then got mixed with Greek mythology and walla all of a sudden you have a hell. Not scriptural at all. 

Shalom

[AdHoc]

15 hours ago, RR144 said:

What did John the Baptist mean (Matt. 3:11, 12) when he said of Jesus: “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire”?

This is my understanding. The literal meaning of Baptize is "immerse as in dyeing a garment". John Baptist then was comparing how he IMMERSED and what for, to how Jesus IMMERSED and what for. Mostly ignored by Christians is that the Holy Spirit is given twice to the Christian. One is for LIFE, and one is for POWER. A Christian, when he/she believes the Holy Spirit IN his/her human spirit (Jn.3:6). This is a result of Christ "breathing" the Holy Spirit INTO His disciples in John 20:22 FOR LIFE (20:30-31). But then our Lord told His disciples, who had already been "breathed into" to wait in Jerusalem to be endued with POWER (Lk.24:49, Act.1:8).

The Greek for FULL of the Spirit is also different for each case. In the case of being "Filled" INWARDLY is "pleroo" - which means to be filled like bucket is filled. But the Greek for the "Filling" of the Spirit on Pentecost is "pletho" - which means to be "furnished" like a policeman puts on a uniform. It is outward. It was this Spirit that enabled prophets to write prophecy and a donkey to speak (in Numbers 22). A man stands on the edge of a dam and drinks till he is full (pleroo). He then dives into the dam and is "full" (pletho) of water. It is the same water but in one case it is inside him and in another he is IMMERSED.

This is what John meant. He would IMMERSE in water for repentance of sins, but Jesus would IMMERSE them in the Holy Spirit for POWER. The FIRE is something separate. It is joined to the IMMERSION by the conjunction "AND". "And" is (i) copulative (it joins two things), (ii) it is cumulative (it adds things together), and (iii) it is sequential (it indicates a sequence). So the "FIRE" is another thing. And the Christian will be IMMERSED in the FIRE. What can that mean?

The answer is that the Christian, in order to wield the POWER of the Holy Spirit, must be PURGED of his old nature. In 1st Peter 4:12 the Christian must undergo "fiery trials". And in Isaiah 48 God does not give up on His People who sin. He "refines" them (v.10). Even our Lord was "made perfect by the things He SUFFERED" (Heb.2:10). It is a great thing to have the power of the Holy Spirit. But it can be abused. Those of Matthew 7:21-23 wielded great power - even to cast out demons, but because they did it without orders from the Father in heaven, they are called "workers of iniquity"! Just as the Captain of a ship has great authority, he must have been TRAINED to wield it. The training of a Christian is more important to God than the works he does afterwards. David is trained to lead Israel by the Bear, the Lion, Goliath, the kings courts and 14 years as a fugitive. Paul must study under Gamaliel and then still spend 14 years alone with Christ (Gal.1) in a WILDERNESS. Moses must be trained for 4o years in Pharaoh's courts and then another 40 years in the wilderness - wilderness of heat, thirst and fiery serpents (Deut.8:1-8).

The Christian must be born again to receive eternal LIFE. Then he must be Baptized in water to receive the Holy Spirit for POWER (Act.2:38). But he must undergo a fiery training to serve Christ OBEDIENTLY. This is not learned in a day. It is learned by years of being IMMERSED in FIERY TRIALS.

[Walter and Deborah]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

This is my understanding. The literal meaning of Baptize is "immerse as in dyeing a garment". John Baptist then was comparing how he IMMERSED and what for, to how Jesus IMMERSED and what for. Mostly ignored by Christians is that the Holy Spirit is given twice to the Christian. One is for LIFE, and one is for POWER. A Christian, when he/she believes the Holy Spirit IN his/her human spirit (Jn.3:6). This is a result of Christ "breathing" the Holy Spirit INTO His disciples in John 20:22 FOR LIFE (20:30-31). But then our Lord told His disciples, who had already been "breathed into" to wait in Jerusalem to be endued with POWER (Lk.24:49, Act.1:8).

The Greek for FULL of the Spirit is also different for each case. In the case of being "Filled" INWARDLY is "pleroo" - which means to be filled like bucket is filled. But the Greek for the "Filling" of the Spirit on Pentecost is "pletho" - which means to be "furnished" like a policeman puts on a uniform. It is outward. It was this Spirit that enabled prophets to write prophecy and a donkey to speak (in Numbers 22). A man stands on the edge of a dam and drinks till he is full (pleroo). He then dives into the dam and is "full" (pletho) of water. It is the same water but in one case it is inside him and in another he is IMMERSED.

This is what John meant. He would IMMERSE in water for repentance of sins, but Jesus would IMMERSE them in the Holy Spirit for POWER. The FIRE is something separate. It is joined to the IMMERSION by the conjunction "AND". "And" is (i) copulative (it joins two things), (ii) it is cumulative (it adds things together), and (iii) it is sequential (it indicates a sequence). So the "FIRE" is another thing. And the Christian will be IMMERSED in the FIRE. What can that mean?

The answer is that the Christian, in order to wield the POWER of the Holy Spirit, must be PURGED of his old nature. In 1st Peter 4:12 the Christian must undergo "fiery trials". And in Isaiah 48 God does not give up on His People who sin. He "refines" them (v.10). Even our Lord was "made perfect by the things He SUFFERED" (Heb.2:10). It is a great thing to have the power of the Holy Spirit. But it can be abused. Those of Matthew 7:21-23 wielded great power - even to cast out demons, but because they did it without orders from the Father in heaven, they are called "workers of iniquity"! Just as the Captain of a ship has great authority, he must have been TRAINED to wield it. The training of a Christian is more important to God than the works he does afterwards. David is trained to lead Israel by the Bear, the Lion, Goliath, the kings courts and 14 years as a fugitive. Paul must study under Gamaliel and then still spend 14 years alone with Christ (Gal.1) in a WILDERNESS. Moses must be trained for 4o years in Pharaoh's courts and then another 40 years in the wilderness - wilderness of heat, thirst and fiery serpents (Deut.8:1-8).

The Christian must be born again to receive eternal LIFE. Then he must be Baptized in water to receive the Holy Spirit for POWER (Act.2:38). But he must undergo a fiery training to serve Christ OBEDIENTLY. This is not learned in a day. It is learned by years of being IMMERSED in FIERY TRIALS.

True Repentance is a key factor here, thanks.

Love Walter

[Walter and Deborah]

18 hours ago, RR144 said:

What did John the Baptist mean (Matt. 3:11, 12) when he said of Jesus: “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire”?
 
To understand John’s words we must bear in mind that he was addressing mixed classes of the Jews. There came out to him people of Jerusalem, and all Judea, and all the region round about Jordan, including Pharisees and Sadducees (vs. 5, 7). John came as the introducer of Jesus and the gospel, and, looking forward, he prophetically foretold the results. “Now also the axe [of Divine judgment] is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit [the fruitage of righteousness] is hewn down, and cast into the fire” (v. 10). Then, speaking of Jesus he says: “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit with fire.” Some of his hearers included in the “you” would receive Jesus, and these (as Israelites indeed) would be baptized with the Holy Spirit (at Pentecost), but others whom he was then addressing would not receive Jesus; hence when their house (nominal Fleshly Israel) would be left desolate (Matt. 23:37-39), they would be baptized with fire—the judgments which came upon them as a people after their rejection of Jesus—not literal fire—but the fire of God’s wrath, the fire of trouble that culminated in the destruction of the Jewish polity in 69-73 A.D.
 
That the above is the correct understanding is proven further by v. 12, which is but a repetition of the same thoughts in other words: “Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor [this shows the main work of Jesus during his 3 1/2 years’ ministry; as a winnower He separated the wheat of the Jewish people from the chaff], and gather his wheat [the true Israelites indeed] into the garner [the Christian Church]; but he will burn up the chaff [the rest of the nation, the refuse] with unquenchable fire [sure destruction that nothing could prevent—the great fire of religious and political contention which destroyed the Jewish nation].” Thus John told his mixed audience that, whereas he baptized with water, Jesus would baptize them with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Some received the one and others the other kind of baptism. We believe it is a serious mistake for any of God’s people to pray for a baptism of fire, for, unwittingly, they are actually praying for a curse instead of a blessing. It is to their advantage it God does not answer such a petition.

Amen!