Who is Israel? And what is God's plan for the Jewish people?

[Alive]

4 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

And what was a Jew? Is that not just a term referencing Judah as Israelites from the kingdom of Judah? So what is it in place of concerning all the tribes?

Although this is not an area in which I am fully knowledeable, I think for our purposes, its enough to understand that a Jew/Hebrew is one who came naturally from Abraham. The two words. Its interesting that the word Jew is assigning a lineage and Hebrew can be both a proper name, lineage and a language.

:-)

 

[Alive]

36 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

ok, this is a good start. Cut off from the community. What does that mean?

It means exactly what it says. No longer able to take part in the covenant relationship enjoyed by the Jews. See ya---bye bye and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, teddyv said:

@Anne2 BTW, you are not the only one having difficulty with following the explanations here. 

Thanks Teddy. I guess My lack of following is just a pain. I just need to shut up here. 

[Anne2]

On 4/2/2022 at 8:22 AM, George said:

This is what I said in a different thread ...

One must be careful of how the term Israel is used.  For example, when Paul says, Israel -- brethren of my flesh, in Romans 9-11 ... this is talking about the Jewish people!  

But at the same time, Paul writes to the Galatian church ... and uses the terminology ... Israel of God! 

 

 

Israel is

The firstborn....

Ex 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

This is the Israel that God speaks of in fulfilling his promise in covenant with Abraham.

The firstborn are the "Israel" from Israel in Romans. 

Galatians speaks of both Israels. Slave woman and the free woman. 

Galatians tells us as does Moses law there were two covenants made with Abraham. 

My opinion mind you. It is just my view of what the whole of scripture teaches.

The covenant in Gensis 15 is one portion of inheritance promised in Abraham. The firstborn are heirs with all their brethren. It is their inheitance in the covenant of Genesis 17, that designates them as firstborn. Their has to be two portions an additional portion to a firstborn above their brethren to be a firstborn. That is what distiguishes them as a firstborn.  The covenant of Genesis 17, the second portion of Inheritance, includes the Gentiles. Why do Gentiles inherit with the firstborn?

A universal assembly

Heb 12:23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 

Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

There is no replacement theology here. Just an identity of the Israel that is from Israel as romans teaches, Galatians teaches, Hebrews teaches. Not all sons are firstborn, we know this.

Israel is a designated as a vessel to bring Judgement on the nations. How did they treat Israel?

Ge 15:14  And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
 

It continues to this day until every last one comes into the promise that God has chosen.

Church history shows a solid belief. They clearly spoke of the Church in existence since Genesis (promise made to Gentiles, the covenant made to Noah). The church being the church of the firstborn, The Israel of God, and so it has, and continues to be.

One portion of inheritance, earthly worldly, the second portion Heavenly, eternal. They cannot inhert it without us, The nations placed and promised in the second portion with the firstborn. 

It is placing All Israelites as heirs in both the covenants  that  the Rabbis erred and the church (some of it errs) alike. Yet talk about literal interpretation? Paul literally says two covenants. The law literally speaks of two covenants. Genesis 15 does not even speak to the firstborn of the first to third generation. It speaks strictly to the fourth generation. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Anne2

[Heleadethme]

Christ is the firstborn among many brethren.  And since Israel/Jews were the first to hear the gospel and be born again, those ones are the firstborn of the Israel of God. 

I take it that the church of the firstborn is speaking of the church/body of Christ, Christ being the firstborn.  And that those verses in Hosea 1 and Exodus 4 references to the firstborn are alluding once again to Christ and the Israel of God, which Israel after the flesh is a figure for, which gave rise/birth to the Messiah/Christ and Israel of God.

(Not that we disparage Israel after the flesh, no of course not, they are loved and their salvation is much desired and hoped for.  When a baby is born most of the attention is given to that child, and rightly so, but it's fair to say there is a certain honour due to the mother as well, who paid a price for that child to come forth.  How do we make sure we don't neglect her..........by washing her with the washing of the water of the word and placing her Child back in her arms.  That through our mercy she may receive mercy.)

[Heleadethme]

15 hours ago, Anne2 said:

The covenant in Gensis 15 is one portion of inheritance promised in Abraham. The firstborn are heirs with all their brethren. It is their inheitance in the covenant of Genesis 17, that designates them as firstborn. Their has to be two portions an additional portion to a firstborn above their brethren to be a firstborn. That is what distiguishes them as a firstborn.

We might be seeing the double portion in type, in a figure once again, with Israel after the flesh.

Just discussing here and reflecting on the double portion...... as you are saying it is for the firstborn....but the firstborn is really only those of the nation of Israel (& Gentile) who are born again.  It might be that we can see what the double portion is all about in a figure (ensample) with the church in the wilderness.....as there were two outpourings of water from the rock.......as well as two bodies of water to get across (Red Sea and then the Jordan).  I believe that is showing the personal journey of those who are born again/firstborn.  Perhaps this same double portion might also be seen in the former and latter rains, personal for for the believer, but also adding up to and speaking to a corporate manifestation.  The nation being circumcised "a second time" before crossing over the Jordan into the Land of Promise....ensample  to the born again believer.   Maybe we can think of it also that being brought "out of Egypt" is the first portion, then after a wilderness journey being "brought into the Promised Land" (Kingdom of God) is the second portion.  As I think George mentioned (forget which thread) the Lord has brought us out in order to bring us in.

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, Heleadethme said:

We might be seeing the double portion in type, in a figure once again, with Israel after the flesh.

Just discussing here and reflecting on the double portion...... as you are saying it is for the firstborn....but the firstborn is really only those of the nation of Israel (& Gentile) who are born again.  It might be that we can see what the double portion is all about in a figure (ensample) with the church in the wilderness.....as there were two outpourings of water from the rock.......as well as two bodies of water to get across (Red Sea and then the Jordan).  I believe that is showing the personal journey of those who are born again/firstborn.  Perhaps this same double portion might also be seen in the former and latter rains, personal for for the believer, but also adding up to and speaking to a corporate manifestation.  The nation being circumcised "a second time" before crossing over the Jordan into the Land of Promise....ensample  to the born again believer.   Maybe we can think of it also that being brought "out of Egypt" is the first portion, then after a wilderness journey being "brought into the Promised Land" (Kingdom of God) is the second portion.  As I think George mentioned (forget which thread) the Lord has brought us out in order to bring us in.

Read the covenants. Promise to bring them back into the land. And bring judgement on the nation for their cruel bondage. Their is no promise to be their God, or anything else in Gen 15. Gen 17 in the second covenant established in Isaac has those promises. Those promises were to the firstborn. They inherited it from the time of Sinai, as for a shadow, in the fleshly commandments. The rest of Israel after the flesh simply came inti the land with them. The Abrahamic covenant Put the conditions in the flesh. The firstborn were spared from Death. Not all Israel was subject to death. It was the promises to the firstborn that were being fulfilled which their fleshly counterparts were enjoying in that blessing with them. The blood of the passover spared Who? The firstborn.

The Levites were taken for the firstborn, redeemed them. Their inheritance was the priesthood and the kingdom, Again a shadow but none the less operating among them to the firstborn. God was going to destroy them all, and make a great nation of Moses.

Acts informs us It was the covenant made in circumcision, established in Isaac their inheritance was set.

Ac 7:5  And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
 

Hebrews pretty much tells us the same in a different way.

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. {in faith: Gr. according to faith }

Edited April 16, 2022 by Anne2

[Anne2]

4 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Christ is the firstborn among many brethren.  And since Israel/Jews were the first to hear the gospel and be born again, those ones are the firstborn of the Israel of God. 

I take it that the church of the firstborn is speaking of the church/body of Christ, Christ being the firstborn.  And that those verses in Hosea 1 and Exodus 4 references to the firstborn are alluding once again to Christ and the Israel of God, which Israel after the flesh is a figure for, which gave rise/birth to the Messiah/Christ and Israel of God.

(Not that we disparage Israel after the flesh, no of course not, they are loved and their salvation is much desired and hoped for.  When a baby is born most of the attention is given to that child, and rightly so, but it's fair to say there is a certain honour due to the mother as well, who paid a price for that child to come forth.  How do we make sure we don't neglect her..........by washing her with the washing of the water of the word and placing her Child back in her arms.  That through our mercy she may receive mercy.)

Also there is the only born. Like Isaac. The one whom the establishing of the covenant is through.

Ge 22:2  And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Ge 22:12  And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Ge 22:16  And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

Ro 3:31  Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Two related but distinct positions shown us here.

Christ as an only born establishes the new covenant, As firstborn is heir a king like Melchizedek. Again Melchizedek was a literal person and king, priest of the most high God. It is the Glory the Apostle John speaks of. Hebrews speaks of . 1 Joh speaks of.

 

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Heb 11:17  By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
1Jo 4:9  In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

[Hopefully]

I think Israel is the people that suffered the most horrible punishments set out in Deuteronomy. The ones freed from Egypt where God parted the sea for them.

Then afterwards they still disobey so God made an example out of them to show the world the what happens when you disobey God. So they suffered the punishments set out in Deuteronomy, and their descendants still suffer the remnants of those punishments to this day.
 

They are considered the last in the earth, but through Gods work and great love for them- comparatively- they now live as Kings in the earth even the worst off  of them. 

 I think Gods plan is to save those of them who believe in Jesus and to not save those who don’t. 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Hopefully

[Hopefully]

16 minutes ago, George said:

they shall come back from the land of the enemy. There is hope for your future, declares the Lord, and your children shall come back to their own country

Hi George, 

to read that is good news and a great reminder. I think many of them want to go home, but are not to sure where home is. They just know this general large area and they don’t know anyone there. So when they get home nobody can boast it will be the Lords work.