(2 Samuel 3:26-39) Bible passage is an account that shows us that we can expect some church congregation members to be deceptively pretentious/fake

[bartmac123]

I just thought it was interesting to note that Joab was ordered by King David to openly express mourning for the death of Abner. 

To elaborate, let's infer/deduce by trying to interpret some key aspects of the 2 Samuel 3:26-39 bible passage

To elaborate, let's infer/deduce by trying to interpret some key aspects of the 2 Samuel 3:26-39 bible passage

-Nation of Israel ---could be viewed as-----> a modern day church congregation

-King David of Israel  ---could be viewed as---> pastor/senior elder of church congregation

-Joab ---could be viewed as ---> a rank-and-file congregation member or elder congregation member at church

-Abner ----could be viewed as ----> some congregation member who was killed

It's interesting that King David ordered Joab in the following bible verse:

(2 Samuel 3:31)
Then David said to Joab and to all the people who were with him, “Tear your clothes and gird on sackcloth and lament before Abner.” And King David walked behind the bier.Jo

The reason being is that Joab probably just went along with the ritual/process of tearing his clothes and girding on sackcloth and lamenting in a perfunctory and legalistic mechanical manner.
In other words, Joab is like some of  church congregation members in today's modern church that are just deceptively pretentious/fake (i.e Joab is playing church )

Essentially the 2 Samuel 3:26-39 bible passage is an account that shows us that we can expect some church congregation members to be deceptively pretentious/fake when they come to church just like Joab.

2 Samuel 3:26-39

New American Standard Bible 1995

Joab Murders Abner

²⁶ When Joab came out from David, he sent messengers after Abner, and they brought him back from the well of Sirah; but David did not know it. ²⁷ So when Abner returned to Hebron, Joab took him aside into the middle of the gate to speak with him privately, and there he struck him in the belly so that he died on account of the blood of Asahel his brother. ²⁸ Afterward when David heard it, he said, “I and my kingdom are innocent before the Lord forever of the blood of Abner the son of Ner. ²⁹ May it ^[a]fall on the head of Joab and on all his father’s house; and may there not fail from the house of Joab one who has a discharge, or who is a leper, or who takes hold of a distaff, or who falls by the sword, or who lacks bread.” ³⁰ So Joab and Abishai his brother killed Abner because he had put their brother Asahel to death in the battle at Gibeon.

David Mourns Abner

³¹ Then David said to Joab and to all the people who were with him, “Tear your clothes and gird on sackcloth and lament before Abner.” And King David walked behind the bier. ³² Thus they buried Abner in Hebron; and the king lifted up his voice and wept at the grave of Abner, and all the people wept. ³³ The king chanted a lament for Abner and said,

“Should Abner die as a fool dies?
³⁴ “Your hands were not bound, nor your feet put in fetters;
As one falls before the ^[b]wicked, you have fallen.”

And all the people wept again over him. ³⁵ Then all the people came to ^[c]persuade David to eat bread while it was still day; but David vowed, saying, “May God do so to me, and more also, if I taste bread or anything else before the sun goes down.” ³⁶ Now all the people took note of it, and it ^[d]pleased them, just as everything the king did ^[e]pleased all the people. ³⁷ So all the people and all Israel understood that day that it had not been the will of the king to put Abner the son of Ner to death. ³⁸ Then the king said to his servants, “Do you not know that a prince and a great man has fallen this day in Israel? ³⁹ I am weak today, though anointed king; and these men the sons of Zeruiah are too difficult for me. May the Lord repay the evildoer according to his evil.”

Edited May 6, 2022 by bartmac123

[Strict Machine]

that is an interesting interpretation of the passage, in the context you're describing it does agree with Matt 25:1-12 about the virgins and the parable of the weeds in Matt 13 which both say the church will become full of apostates, not to mention Paul's letters to Timothy which also mention the great departure from the faith.  The bible tells us that hypocrisy has been around for a long time

[Who me]

On 5/6/2022 at 4:28 PM, bartmac123 said:

let's infer/deduce by trying to interpret some key aspects of the 2 Samuel 3:26-39 bible passage

Please show your grounds for assuming this situation is replicated in churches.

[bartmac123]

6 hours ago, Who me said:

Please show your grounds for assuming this situation is replicated in churches.

@Who me

Let's try to show warnings about Fake Christians in the bible.
The Ephesians 5:22-32 bible passage establishes the fact that Jesus
Christ is married to the church.

Quote

 

Ephesians 5:22-32 ( New American Standard Bible 1995 )

22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the
husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the
church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church
is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands
in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and
gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having
cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might
present to Himself the church [a]in all her glory, having no spot or
wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies.
He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29 for no one ever hated his
own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does
the church, 30 because we are members of His body. 31 For this reason
a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his
wife, and the two shall become one flesh. 32 This mystery is great;
but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.

 

In 2 Corinthians 11:1-3, Paul tells the Corinthians church that they
are a bride of Jesus Christ.

Quote

 

2 Corinthians 11:1-3 ( New American Standard Bible 1995 )

11 I wish that you would bear with me in a little foolishness; but
[a]indeed you are bearing with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with a
godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ
I might present you as a pure virgin. 3 But I am afraid that, as the
serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray
from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

 

In 2 Corinthians 11:12-15,  Paul tells the Corinthians church that he
wants to cut off any opportunities that "false apostles, deceitful
workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ" would want when
they interact with Corinthians.

Quote

 

2 Corinthians 11:12-15 ( New American Standard Bible 1995 )

12 But what I am doing I will continue to do, so that I may cut off
opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be [a]regarded
just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting. 13 For
such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves
as apostles of Christ. 14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself
as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his
servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose
end will be according to their deeds.

 

To conclude, the aforementioned reasoning concretizes the fact that
there are fake Christians (i.e, "false apostles, deceitful workers,
disguising themselves as apostles of Christ" ) in the church.  Now, we
can infer that said fake Christians at first glance will blend in
quite well with other sincere Christian church members.  To elaborate,
fake Christians might raise their hands just like sincere Christians
when the church choir or the worship band sings.  Fake Christians
might even spout out bible verses.  Fake Christians can mourn when they attend a funeral( just like Joab who was commanded by David to mourn in 2 Samuel 3:26-39 ).

Essentially, Paul tells the Corinthians church about the dangers of fake Christians.

Edited May 31, 2022 by bartmac123

[Who me]

On 5/31/2022 at 4:30 PM, bartmac123 said:

To conclude, the aforementioned reasoning concretizes the fact that
there are fake Christians (i.e, "false apostles, deceitful workers,
disguising themselves as apostles of Christ" ) in the church.

 

Your charge was that church leaders were like Joab, murders, now you have changed to talk about false teachers etc.

 

It is still a vague and very generalised charge with no substance.

 

Yes if you find a preacher is abusing his position you should raise it and if not fealt with leave.

But nothing you have posted permits anyone to not attend church each sunday.

[bartmac123]

8 hours ago, Who me said:

 

Your charge was that church leaders were like Joab, murders, now you have changed to talk about false teachers etc.

 

It is still a vague and very generalised charge with no substance.

 

Yes if you find a preacher is abusing his position you should raise it and if not fealt with leave.

But nothing you have posted permits anyone to not attend church each sunday.

 

The title of my posting was "(2 Samuel 3:26-39) Bible passage is an account that shows us that we can expect some church congregation members to be deceptively pretentious/fake".

 "congregation members" includes all people involved in church which includes pastors, church elders, volunteers, bible study cell group leaders, all the way to the typical congregation member who just attends the church service.  

Furthermore, I emphasized the following (2 Corinthians 11:13) verse in my response:

Quote

(2 Corinthians 11:13) For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.

The aforementioned verse includes "deceitful workers" which can include:

 

-church elders

-church volunteers

-bible study cell group leaders

-(this might be a little bit far-fetched or a stretch) typical congregation member who just attends the church service( and the reason I would include the typical congregation member with No title and/or No official role at church is because I could interpret / view said typical congregation member raising their hands at church while singing worship songs, meeting new church members, new visitors, etc., are all actions/behaviours associated with workers ( now some of the workers might be deceitful).

 

[Who me]

On 6/3/2022 at 4:15 PM, bartmac123 said:

The title of my posting was "(2 Samuel 3:26-39) Bible passage is an account that shows us that we can expect some church congregation members to be deceptively pretentious/fake".

 

We don't have to distort scripture to try to make a point.

I m not aware of any part of sdcripture that gives the interpretation you are giving to this passage.

 

It is far simpler to go to those parts of Pauls letters that deal with corrupt practices in the early church.

 

Which you do after I've challenged your exergises.

[*Deidre*]

I’m under the impression that David was instructing Joab how to conduct himself for the sake of the congregation, as David was setting an example of “how” to mourn. 

[bartmac123]

42 minutes ago, *Deidre* said:

I’m under the impression that David was instructing Joab how to conduct himself for the sake of the congregation, as David was setting an example of “how” to mourn. 

Yes, Joab is following David's instructions.  However, there is more to it than Joab just merely following David's instructions.

To elaborate, I believe that 2 Samuel 3:26-39 bible passage is an example how we Christians shouldbe cautious about thinking that all church pastors and elders are sincere & genuine followers of Jesus Christ.  There are people who are eager to take on leadership roles like leading bible cell group studies and/or lead singing during worship or church choir but might just be eager to take on said roles because of their egos and/or yearning for popularity among  the people.

King Saul of The Old Testament Bible is a good example of a person who yearned for popularity among the people, and Not really sincerely & genuinely seeking God.  To elaborate, after Prophet Samuel yells at King Saul for disobeying the command of the Lord, the dialogue between the 2 goes on as follows:

(1 Samuel 15:24-31) (New American Standard Bible 1995)

24 Then Saul said to Samuel, “I have sinned; I have indeed
transgressed the [a]command of the Lord and your words, because I
feared the people and listened to their voice. 25 Now therefore,
please pardon my sin and return with me, that I may worship the Lord.”
26 But Samuel said to Saul, “I will not return with you; for you have
rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord has rejected you from
being king over Israel.” 27 As Samuel turned to go, Saul seized the
edge of his robe, and it tore. 28 So Samuel said to him, “The Lord has
torn the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it to your
neighbor, who is better than you. 29 Also the Glory of Israel will
not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change
His mind.” 30 Then he said, “I have sinned; but please honor me now
before the elders of my people and before Israel, and go back with me,
that I may worship the Lord your God.” 31 So Samuel went back
following Saul, and Saul worshiped the Lord.

 (1 Samuel 15:24) .......(King Saul) I feared the people and listened
to their voice.
In the aforementioned verse, King Saul is more concerned about the
Israelite people, and the fleshly needs of the Israelite people as
opposed to being concerned about God and Godly needs.  In other words,
King Saul is concerned about his own popularity among the Israelite
people.

(1 Samuel 15:25) (King Saul) 5 Now therefore, please pardon my sin and
return with me, that I may worship the Lord.”

In said verse, King Saul thinks that Prophet Samuel( i.e, a man ) can
pardon his sin which is totally Wrong because Only God can forgive
sin.

(1 Samuel 15:30) (King Saul) 30 Then he said, “I have sinned; but
please honor me now before the elders of my people and before Israel,
and go back with me, that I may worship the Lord your God.”

In said verse, King Saul requests Prophet Samuel for a 2nd time to
honor King Saul with the Prophet Samuel's presence among the people.
I know of  a person at my church who has sung songs during worship,
and started a bible study cell group.   The aforementioned person definitely looks the part of a church elder who dresses really well, and is disciplined about attending church service, and spouting out scripture.  The aforementioned person is good at portraying a good image.  However, I've heard and seen said person yell at another person for minor problems, and seems to be short-tempered, and arrogant when faced with minor aspects of life that said person does Not like. Essentially, a calm temperament is lacking in said person.( I do pray for said person).

Another case involves congregation members who are driven by
personal ego.  Now in the case of King Uzziah of Israel, it is a
little bit more complicated because it does say that in 2 Chronicles 26:4-5 that

( 2 Chronicles 26:4-5)
He did right in the sight of the
Lord according to all that his father Amaziah had done. 5 He continued
to seek God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding [c]through
the vision of God; and [d]as long as he sought the Lord, God prospered
him.

However, as we read "2 Chronicles 26:16-21", we can probably assume
that King Uzziah's personal ego got the better of him, and he wanted
to take up temple ritual practices that Only priests are supposed to
carry out.

(2 Chronicles 26:16-21)

16 But when he became strong, his heart was so [a]proud that he acted
corruptly, and he was unfaithful to the Lord his God, for he entered
the temple of the Lord to burn incense on the altar of incense. 17
Then Azariah the priest entered after him and with him eighty priests
of the Lord, valiant men. 18 They opposed Uzziah the king and said to
him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the Lord, but for
the priests, the sons of Aaron who are consecrated to burn incense.
Get out of the sanctuary, for you have been unfaithful and will have
no honor from the Lord God.” 19 But Uzziah, with a censer in his hand
for burning incense, was enraged; and while he was enraged with the
priests, the leprosy broke out on his forehead before the priests in
the house of the Lord, beside the altar of incense. 20 Azariah the
chief priest and all the priests looked at him, and behold, he was
leprous on his forehead; and they hurried him out of there, and he
himself also hastened to get out because the Lord had smitten him. 21
King Uzziah was a leper to the day of his death; and he lived in a
separate house, being a leper, for he was cut off from the house of
the Lord. And Jotham his son was over the king’s house judging the
people of the land.

 

[bartmac123]

On 6/7/2022 at 9:25 AM, Who me said:

 

We don't have to distort scripture to try to make a point.

I m not aware of any part of sdcripture that gives the interpretation you are giving to this passage.

 

It is far simpler to go to those parts of Pauls letters that deal with corrupt practices in the early church.

 

Which you do after I've challenged your exergises.

The following 2 are different

a) inferring/deducing with scripture ( e.g. an example could be applying hermenutic tool called scripture-interprets-scripture )

Vs

b) distorting of scripture to suit our needs

When we apply hermeneutic tools, apply exegesis and analyze and study bible scripture, we can infer/deduce.

For example,  I agree that there is No Explicit scripture that states that the Ancient Nation of Israel is like today's modern day church congregation.

However, by inferences/deductions,  there is a lot of scripture that Implicitly emphasizes God being the husband of Israel:

(Jer 31:31-33 NKJV) "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; {32} "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD............................

(Jer 3:14-20 NKJV) "Return, O backsliding children," says the LORD; "for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion. {15} "And I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.......................................................

(Isa 54:5-17 NKJV) For your Maker is your husband, The LORD (H3068 - Jehovah) of hosts (Heavenly hosts) is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God (H430 - Elohiym) of the whole earth...........................................

, and there is correlated scripture that emphasizes Jesus Christ being the husband of the church

(2 Corinthians 11:2) For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.


(Ephesians 5:25) Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,

Therefore, to conclude, by inferences/deductions,  we can say:


-Nation of Ancient Israel ---could be viewed as-----> a modern day church congregation

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by bartmac123