The Event of Christ's Sign Appearance

[not an echo]

Hello all,

A basic understanding of the common pre-trib rapture view is that Christ's return will be in two phases.  As it is commonly expressed, the first phase will be His sudden and unexpected return as a "thief" for the rapture of the Church and the resurrection.  The second phase will be His return as the "King of kings, and Lord of lords" for the Battle of Armageddon and His Millennial Reign.  This second phase of His return is normally referred to simply as His Second Coming, or Second Advent.

While I see things somewhat similarly, I have been much helped by a closer look at what I believe to be a very key passage relating to this.  According to Jesus' Olivet Discourse, and in harmony with everything that is revealed in Scripture, Christ's Second Advent will be preceded by a sign appearance.  I state it this way because of Jesus' use of the words "the sign" in the following portion of His Olivet Discourse, from Matthew 24:

 29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 30  And then shall appear THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven:  and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 31  And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Because there are major differences of opinion concerning the correct interpretation of this passage, I will be speaking of it much, not only in this opening post, but also in my posts that will follow.  To simplify things, any time I speak of "our focal passage",  it will be the above three verses I am referring to.  As I begin, remember some things.  One, it is Jesus who is using the words "the sign" concerning this event.  Two, just like after the opening of the 6th Seal, something happens that affects the appearance of the sun and the moon at this time.  And three, whether it be His Sign Appearance or His Second Advent, whether it be the raptured Church, the 144,000 sealed Jews, many eyes, or every eye, the next time Jesus is seen by anyone, He will be seen "with power and great glory."

Looking closer, just before Jesus began His Olivet Discourse, the disciples had asked Him, "Tell us, when shall these things be?  and what shall be THE SIGN OF THY COMING, and of the end of the world?" (Matt. 24:3).  By this, they were as much as asking Him, "What shall be THE SIGN OF THY SECOND COMING?"  In reply, He reveals to them many things, but the only time He uses the definite article "the" with the singular word "sign" is in verse 30 of our focal passage.  Based upon this and other evidences, Jesus is indicating that before His Second Coming, He is going to make a sign appearance.  Moreover, at this sign appearance, He is coming to get something before He returns later to stay.  And, what is that?  Look closer at the last verse of our focal passage:

 31  And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If I were talking with the reader over coffee right now, I would like to ask you in your presence what it sounds like Jesus is here speaking about.  Why?  Because many pre-trib scholars are interpreting this to be a reference to something besides the rapture.  Knowing the reasons for this, I submit that there are much better reasons to interpret this as a rapture passage than anything else.  A prime example is what Paul said to the Thessalonians (in an accepted rapture passage) to quench rumors that Christ's Second Advent was at hand.  Remaining mindful of the preceding verse (vs. 31), consider afresh, from II Thessalonians 2 (with my clarifying notes in parentheses):

  1   Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (for the rapture), and by OUR GATHERING TOGETHER unto Him (during the rapture),

  2   That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the Day of Christ (His Second Advent) is at hand.

If Paul's words and Jesus' words were puzzle pieces, they would fit right together and without any forcing.  Nevertheless, the fit of these pieces of Scripture seems to be largely missed.

To be sure, there are other things to be looked at, and we will.  But, for now, I want to call attention to the verses of Jesus' discourse that our focal passage is sandwiched within (its immediate context) and how these support what I am calling attention to.  First of all, in the three verses just preceding our focal passage (the top part of the sandwich), Jesus spoke these words:

 26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, He is in the desert;  go not forth:  behold, He is in the secret chambers;  believe it not.

 27  FOR AS THE LIGHTNING COMETH OUT OF THE EAST, AND SHINETH EVEN UNTO THE WEST;  SO SHALL ALSO THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE.

 28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Everyone accepts what Jesus says in verse 27 to be of His Second Advent.  But, is this the same event of which He speaks in the three verses that follow---the three verses of our focal passage?  There He says, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven."  These differing statements are not different angles on the same event.  The word sign denotes something far different than the substance of His coming for every eye to see as depicted in the above verses.  Why would Jesus use the word sign in connection with this event, if His substance is at this time going to remain right before everyone?  However, the word "sign" will fit the event of the rapture, especially with this happening so quickly and the likelihood that He will make this sign appearance in the sky over Israel, for those in that hemisphere to witness or glimpse.  Said another way, Jesus' differing words in verses 27 and 30 are not different angles on the same event, but different accounts of different events, because He is going to make a sign appearance before His Second Advent.

From another angle, if what Jesus reveals in our focal passage is of His Second Advent, how would signs relating to the sun, the moon, and the stars at this time even rate an honorable mention?  With His Second Advent being "as the lightning" and what John sees in Revelation 19:11-16, whatever else might be happening skyward would pale into utter insignificance.  Really, what relevance would any kind of sign have in the face of Christ's Second Advent?  But, when understood to be connected with a sign appearance and the rapture, such makes sense.

Moving forward, in the three verses just after our focal passage (the bottom part of the sandwich), Jesus spoke these words:

 32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree;  When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

 33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL THESE THINGS, know that it (His Second Advent) IS NEAR, even at the doors.

 34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

In the context of our focal passage, Jesus uses characteristics of the fig tree to illustrate just how near His Second Advent will be after He makes His Sign Appearance---again reinforcing the truth of separate events.  What He says concerning "all these things" in verse 33 would have to include the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (not to mention the other signs), of which He had just finished speaking.  Pause and read our focal passage together with the above verses to capture the true flow.

This is also the tenor of Mark and Luke's corresponding accounts.  But, from Luke's account, we find something more that Jesus said, before giving His parable of the fig tree.  Please give careful consideration to what I have here emphasized, from Luke 21:

 25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;  and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity;  the sea and the waves roaring;

 26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:  for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

 27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

 28  And when THESE THINGS BEGIN TO COME TO PASS, then look up, and lift up your heads;  FOR YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWETH NIGH.

 29  And He spake to them a parable;  Behold the fig tree...

If what Luke records in verses 25-27 is interpreted to be of Christ's Second Advent, verse 28 does not fit.  Do you see it?  When someone is present, their return is not pending, or "nigh."  Verse 28 will only fit if verses 25-27 are understood to be of a preceding event, or the appearance of "the Sign of the Son of man in heaven",  which is what Jesus refers to this as in Matthew's account.  When the different accounts of Jesus' discourse are compared, everything comes into better focus, as should be expected.

In reflection upon what I have been discussing, if in His Olivet Discourse, Jesus purposed to provide information for believers concerning His future return, is it not reasonable that He would inform them concerning a preceding event (like the pre-trib "first phase"), especially if there is going to be one?  Indeed, as it turns out, the evidence of His speaking of two events---His Second Advent and a preceding sign appearance---is there, right in the middle of His discourse.  I hope those of all persuasions, especially the common pre-trib persuasion, will take another look at this.  So, are there two phases to Christ's return?  Kinda, but not as is popularly understood.  More correctly, Christ's Second Advent will be preceded by a sign appearance, at which time the resurrection and the rapture with take place.  Important to note is that this will take place very, very quickly---like "twinkling of an eye" quick!  When I have tried to imagine this, I can envision those left suddenly glimpsing Him, then shielding their eyes with their hands because of the brightness of His appearance, only to find that when they remove their hands a bit, He is already gone---and others with Him.

Before moving on, the thing of Christ's Sign Appearance and Second Advent is kind of like what many have experienced at a big concert.  Imagine if you are at a concert, in the vicinity of the tour bus, and you get to see the star going in or out of it.  That appearance of the star would be a sure sign that the concert is still on as planned.  And, you will know that before the night is done, every eye (including yours!) is going to get to see the star on the stage.  Suffice it to say, as all the stars in our night time sky bunched together would pale in glory compared to the sun, so is it going to be with THE SON compared with all the human "stars" of our present world.  Just a little side bar---At Christ's Sign Appearance, the Church gets a back stage pass!

While the foregoing hardly settles every question relating to our focal passage, I am hardly done.  Next, I want to move beyond its immediate context and study the paragraph itself and how it interlocks with other scriptures, especially John's account of the 6th Seal. 

NOTE:  The subject of this thread connects with A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have.  Following is a link to my master thread by this same title (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).  In the second post of that thread, I keep a running list of all the other threads I have started that relate to my different interpretation.  I believe that we would all agree that the study of the last days and the timing of the rapture (relative to other events) is a most engaging and important subject.  Moreover, those in the family of God understand things differently and for different reasons.  I am thankful for the many who have made a contribution to my better understanding.  What I put forth represents my contribution.  Whatever is the most correct understanding of what The Bible actually teaches on this, I believe we will all agree that the most important thing is that we all be ready, come what may.  For me, my readiness rests in the salvation that Almighty God wrought for us through the blood of Jesus Christ on the cross at Calvary.  Beyond this, I have long been drawn to what Jesus said in the closing of His Olivet Discourse, according to Mark's account, from chapter 13...

 37  And what I say unto you, I say unto all, Watch.

Edited September 10, 2022 by not an echo

[not an echo]

Let's look again at the three verse paragraph from Jesus' Olivet Discourse where He speaks of the appearance of "THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  I will continue to refer to this as our focal passage.  It will be like the hub of a wheel assembly, and all the scriptures that fasten to it will be like the spokes.  My goal, of course, will be to interpret correctly, so that the wheel won't wobble.  From Matthew's account, in chapter 24, our focal passage reads as follows (and note what I have capitalized and underlined):

 29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall THE SUN be darkened, and THE MOON shall not give her light, and THE STARS shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 30  And then shall appear THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN:  and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 31  And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Of the things Jesus says in this paragraph, something we should all be able to agree upon is this:  He is speaking of an appearance He will make that is inseparably linked to signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars.  For those of us who believe that there will be a preceding event related to the event of His Second Advent, a correct understanding must be arrived at concerning which event He is here speaking of.

To get started, this is the first place in the New Testament where we read of an event that is accompanied by such signs.  The last place is in The Revelation, where we again read of such an event.  This is in chapter six, in John's account of the 6th Seal.  It reads as follows (and again, note what I have capitalized and underlined):

 12  And I beheld when He had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;  and THE SUN became black as sackcloth of hair, and THE MOON became as blood;

 13  And THE STARS of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;  and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

 16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, AND HIDE US FROM THE FACE OF HIM THAT SITTETH ON THE THRONE, AND FROM THE WRATH OF THE LAMB:

 17  For the great day of His wrath is come;  and who shall be able to stand?

If we compare what Jesus spoke with what John wrote, this is what we find:  They both refer to simultaneously occurring phenomena having to do with the sun, the moon, and the stars---in sequential order.  Jesus spoke of a time when THE SUN would be "darkened."  John wrote, "THE SUN became black as sackcloth made of hair."  Jesus spoke of a time when THE MOON would not "give her  light."  John wrote, "THE MOON became as blood."  Jesus spoke of a time when THE STARS would "fall from heaven."  John wrote, "THE STARS of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs."  Furthermore, Jesus also spoke of a time when "the powers of  THE HEAVENS shall be shaken."  John wrote, "THE HEAVEN departed as a scroll when it is rolled together."  Does it not sound like that what Jesus said would happen is here being fulfilled by what John describes as happening?  And most importantly, coupled with all of this, Jesus said that the appearance of "THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN" would occur at the time of these phenomena, which is also consistent with what John wrote:  "AND HIDE US FROM THE FACE OF HIM THAT SITTETH ON THE THRONE, AND FROM THE WRATH OF THE LAMB."  The sequential order of these accounts is like A,B,C,D,E---I,2,3,4,5.

Reinforcing the relationship of all the foregoing, Mark and Luke's corresponding accounts of our focal passage also fit what John described.  But, something else very noteworthy is this:  Whereas Luke does not record anything concerning Jesus' sending of His angels to gather together His elect (as do Matthew and Mark), he does record some things Jesus said concerning the reaction of those left, or not gathered.  Notice what I have put in bold from Luke 21 (and once again, note what I have capitalized and underlined):

 25  And there shall be signs in THE SUN, and THE MOON, and in THE STARS;  and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity;  the sea and the waves roaring;

 26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:  for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

 27  And then shall they see THE SON OF MAN coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Does this not sound like a paraphrase of John's account of the 6th Seal and mankind's reaction at that time (see again Rev. 6:12-17 above)?  I hope you will closely review the accounts and compare.

Again, it is evident that there will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars that will accompany this appearance of Christ.  This particular event is spoken of in our focal passage, in Mark and Luke's corresponding accounts of this passage, and in John's account of the 6th Seal.  In our focal passage, Jesus says of this event, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven."  Because of this, we can rightly identify His appearance in each of the other parallel accounts as also being "the sign of the Son of man in heaven."  But, does this necessarily mean that this is the time of the rapture and a different event than His Second Advent?  In my next post, I will provide further evidences that it does.

Edited February 4, 2023 by not an echo
I had reserved this slot for the present post

[not an echo]

Concerning the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), does what we have looked at so far establish that this is the time of the rapture and a different event than that of His Second Advent?  For some perhaps, but for others who would like to see more (like myself), the purpose of my next two posts will be to provide further evidences that it does.

FURTHER EVIDENCE ITEM #1

In verse 30 of our focal passage (remember, Matt. 24:29-31), Jesus says, "and they shall see the Son of man coming..."  But, rather than this being for the Battle of Armageddon and His Millennial Reign, He is here coming in the clouds to make a sign appearance and to "send His angels" to "GATHER TOGETHER His elect" (vs. 31).  This surely rings of the rapture.  Recall again how Paul's words harmonize with what Jesus said:  "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (for the rapture), and by our GATHERING TOGETHER unto Him (during the rapture), that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the Day of Christ (His Second Advent) is at hand" (II Thess. 2:1-2).  Paul is here clarifying for the Thessalonians that Christ's Second Advent was not "at hand" as some were saying.  At least seven years before this, the event of our being gathered unto Him (which corresponds to the event of His Sign Appearance) will take place, after which the Antichrist will be revealed (II Thess. 2:3-4ff).  It is after all of this, and after Daniel's 70th Week is fulfilled, that "the Day of Christ" (II Thess. 2:2), or His Second Advent, will take place, at which time He will destroy the Antichrist "with the brightness of His coming" (II Thess. 2:8).

Note also the kinship between this gathering together of the elect and what John beheld just after his account of the 6th Seal.  Right after his account of this seal---just before the opening of the 7th Seal---there is an interlude (all of chapter seven) where he writes of 144,000 Jews that are sealed (Rev. 7:1-8) and of a great multitude assembled in Heaven (Rev. 7:9-17).  Could this great multitude be these gathered elect, or the Church?  If the rapture occurs after the opening of the 6th Seal, there's not a much better place to find evidence of the Church being now in Heaven than right here.

FURTHER EVIDENCE ITEM #2

Closely akin to the preceding, in verse 31 of our focal passage, Jesus says His sending of the angels to "gather together His elect" will occur in conjunction with "a great sound of a trumpet."  This also harmonizes with what Paul said would happen at the time of the rapture.  In I Thessalonians 4:16-17 he writes, "For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the Trump of God:  and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:  and so shall we ever be with the Lord."  And again, in I Corinthians 15:51-52, he speaks similarly:  "Behold, I shew you a mystery;  We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trump:  for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

But there is something more.  Paul refers to the trumpet of which he speaks as "the Last Trump",  and it is clear that this trumpet will be sounded at the rapture.  However, if what Jesus declares in our focal passage is interpreted to be of His Second Advent (the common pre-trib position), this would make the trumpet of which He speaks the Last Trump, for it would be sounded at least seven years after the rapture trumpet.  Something here is not quite adding up.  Which trumpet is the last trumpet?

Well, scripturally, a case can be made that there will be two last trumpet soundings.  Based upon Numbers 10:1-10, there could be a last trumpet calling an assembly and a last trumpet sounding an alarm.  What needs to be realized is this:  According to the common pre-trib position (with which I was brought up), for the trumpet Jesus spoke about in our focal passage to be sounded at His Second Advent would require that there be three last trumpet soundings.  Let's count them (realizing that I only accept the first two):

TRUMPET #1---The trumpet Paul referred to as the "Last Trump."  There is agreement that this trumpet relates to the resurrection and the rapture, and for those of us who are of the pre-trib, or pre-Daniel's 70th Week persuasion, the event that will precede (by seven plus years) the time of Christ's Second Advent.  We could appropriately refer to this as the last trumpet calling an assembly!

TRUMPET #2---The 7th Trumpet, spoken of in Revelation 11:15.  This is the last in a series of seven trumpet soundings and the last one mentioned in the Bible.  But, this trumpet is not sounded at either event of our discussion (Christ' Sign Appearance nor His Second Advent).  Rather, it is sounded to herald the period of which verses 15-19 are an overview.  A cursory reading of these verses will show that we could appropriately refer to this as the last trumpet sounding an alarm.

TRUMPET #3---The trumpet of our focal passage, IF our focal passage concerns Christ's Second Advent.  Yet, there is no evidence in The Revelation and its unquestioned account of His Second Advent for the sounding of a trumpet at that time.  Neither is there any clear evidence in all of Scripture for the sounding of a trumpet at that time.  The only evidence for a trumpet being sounded at the time of Christ's Second Advent happens to be in our focal passage, IF it is INTERPRETED to be of His Second Advent.  Hopefully it is being realized (more and more) why I believe this to be a misinterpretation.

As can be seen, there are solid reasons to believe that what Jesus spoke about in our focal passage concerns a sign appearance that He is going to make which will precede His Second Advent.  Interpreted this way, there is perfect harmony between the trumpet of our focal passage and the trumpet Paul referred to as "the Last Trump",  which we all know will be sounded at the rapture.

FURTHER EVIDENCE ITEM #3

Back to our focal passage, according to Jesus' words in verse 30, the return He is here speaking of will be seen, or witnessed.  However, the coming of Christ for the Church is popularly believed to be an invisible coming.  Now, before I lose you (if you are pre-trib), I believe very similarly as far as what the experience will be for those left on our side of the earth, in our hemisphere.  But, because of evidences in Scripture, it appears that at Christ's Sign Appearance, things are going to be a little different on the other side of the earth, in Israel's hemisphere.

For now, according to Jesus, His return at this time will be seen, or witnessed---at least by some.  Whether this is a rapture passage or not, we know that when Jesus returns for His Bride, He will be seen by Her!  However, Jesus here says that "ALL the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son."  This rings of the 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from every tribe, which will be sealed during that same interlude mentioned earlier, between the 6th and 7th seals (Rev. 7:2-8).  Could it be that these 144,000 Jews will see Jesus during the rapture of the Church?  This would certainly fit what He says concerning this return being "THE SIGN"!  Does Jesus' words and John's vision link together?  Let's see:  If 12,000 Jews from every tribe get to see Jesus and are sealed during the rapture, Jesus' words in our focal passage would reflect THIS SEALING and THE RAPTURE, while John's vision in Revelation chapter seven would reveal THOSE SEALED and THE RAPTURED.  Another parallel in sequence.

According to John's account of the 6th Seal, many others will also get at least a glimpse of Christ during this sign event (Rev. 6:15-17).  The nature of things at Christ's Sign Appearance may be such that the only ones for whom He will allow this to be possible will be those in Israel's hemisphere, similar to when He ascended (Acts 1:9-12).  Just be sure, at Christ's Second Advent, "every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7).  For a very interesting possibility concerning this, see my thread, The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/).

Edited February 4, 2023 by not an echo
I had reserved this slot for the present post

[not an echo]

Continuing where I left off...

FURTHER EVIDENCE ITEM #4

Because our focal passage is so commonly interpreted to be of Christ's Second Advent, His 6th Seal appearance (Rev. 6:15-17) has been interpreted likewise.  However, if so, John's account of this should align with his undisputed account of Christ's Second Advent given much later, in Revelation 19---but it doesn't.  For example, after the 6th Seal is opened, John beholds the people's utter terror and flight as they say to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16).  On the surface, this might be taken as some evidence of Christ's Second Advent.  Yet, in Revelation 19:19 John writes, "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army."  This sounds as if those gathered with the Antichrist are expecting Christ's return and are presuming that under the Antichrist's leadership, they might have a chance in this battle.  In light of this---and all the other differences---these two accounts hardly shape up to be of the same event.

FURTHER EVIDENCE ITEM #5

For the same reason expressed in the opening sentence of EVIDENCE ITEM #4, if so, John's account of the 6th Seal should also align with the undisputed account of the pouring out of the seven vials of God's wrath given much later, in Revelation 16---but it doesn't.  For example, in John's account of the pouring out of the vials, it is not until after the pouring out of the 6th Vial that the beast, the false prophet, and those in league with them are gathered together to the "place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon" (16:16).  I submit that this particular gathering will not happen overnight.  But, in the account of the 6th Seal, it is not until the people cry out to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb" that they say, "For the great day of His wrath is come:  and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:16-17).  Meaning what?  Meaning, where is the pouring out of the first five vials of God's wrath accounted for?  And, there's more questions than this to be asked.

FURTHER EVIDENCE ITEM #6

Looking once again at John's account of the 6th Seal (again, for the same reason expressed in the opening sentence of EVIDENCE ITEM #4), he records this response of all the people in their distress:  "For the great day of His wrath is come;  and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:17).  It is of this very time that Paul writes the following, in I Thessalonians 5:3, "For when they shall say, Peace and safety;  then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child;  and they shall not ESCAPE."  Paul says this in reference to those who will be left at the rapture.  This ties in with what he says a few verses later to those who are a part of the Church, who will not be left.  In verse nine he says, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."  Similarly, Jesus makes a statement, recorded in Luke's account of His Olivet Discourse, which also ties in with this.  In Luke 21:36, He says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to...

STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN."

This escape of which Jesus speaks doesn't fit the timing of His Second Advent, but it fits the rapture and the timing of the 6th Seal exactly.  And in that interlude just after this seal, John beholds those who have just escaped.  Notice how his words, from Revelation 7:9, tie back in with those above that Jesus spoke:  "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,

STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE, AND BEFORE THE LAMB..."

It should be realized that if Christ's 6th Seal appearance is still interpreted to be of His Second Advent, the 7th Seal must be dealt with, as well as the events surrounding the seven trumpets and the seven vials of God's wrath, not to mention everything else that takes place up until the time of the undisputed account of His Second Advent, given thirteen chapters later in Revelation 19.  This makes for a chronological tangle that cannot be unraveled.  These puzzle pieces just do not fit together.  However, if Christ's 6th Seal appearance is interpreted to be of His Sign Appearance---a key event that will precede the time of His Second Advent---the pieces fall right into place.  This understanding would have this group of pieces...

---Revelation 6:12-17---

going more to the left side of the picture with the time of Christ's return for the resurrection and the rapture, and the other group of pieces...

---Revelation 19:11-21---

going more to the right side of the picture with the time of Christ's return for the Battle of Armageddon and His Millennial Reign.  As for the other pieces we have looked at so far, they would merely go where the points of convergence indicate, as we have been seeing.

In review, it is apparent that Jesus is going to make a return that will be accompanied by signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars.  In our focal passage, He says of this return, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven."  We have looked at solid evidences that this will be a sign appearance that He will make, an event that will precede His Second Advent.  There are equally as solid evidences linking this appearance to the one He will make after the 6th Seal is opened.  Moreover, it is in relation to this appearance that we see evidences of the just escaped Church in the presence of the Lord and the despair of those left.

Scholarship has worked up many equations in their efforts to make the big four common views add up, but no equation will be truly solved until the appearance of Christ in our focal passage is understood to be a sign appearance that He will make before His Second Advent.  On my part, I'm just an ole country boy, using old school ciphering (you know, 2+2 = 4) and listening for the guidance of Christ's Spirit (Jn. 16:13).  A lot sure comes together in a very interesting way when figured this way.  If you can appreciate the simplicity of the A,B,C,'s and 1,2,3's, look closely at the 36 propositions I have listed in the opening post of my thread, A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).  It's not what you are used to hearing, but then, I am not an echo.

In my next post, I will give a sequence of events related to Christ's Sign Appearance and the timing of the rapture.  Whereas the sequence I give is based upon what we find revealed in Scripture, I have set it to a possible real life narrative, also based upon what we find revealed in Scripture.  Whatever the reader may feel about this possibility, my prayer is that it might be found to be helpful in some way.  Remember:  Of more importance than our various views, interpretations, or understandings is the importance of being ready---come what may.

Edited February 4, 2023 by not an echo
I had reserved this slot for the present post

[not an echo]

Following is a sequence of events I have worked up related to Christ's Sign Appearance and the timing of the rapture.  It is based upon what is revealed in Scripture, and I have set it to a possible real life narrative, also based upon what is revealed in Scripture.  Moreover, it is very conceivable.  I hope that it is found to be helpful:

A SEQUENCE OF EVENTS RELATED TO THE RAPTURE

Jesus Christ, the Lamb, began to open the seals of the Seven Sealed Book early in the era of the NT Church, late in the first century.  With the opening of the first four seals, the four horsemen of these seals---Satan's henchmen---went forth from their corral, insatiably bent on accomplishing their sinister goals.  They have continued their ride down through the corridors of history, even to this day, leaving a very visible trail of their respective activities.  As the Day of the Lord and the time of Daniel's 70th Week draws ever closer, so will the time of the opening of the 5th Seal, which reveals the cry of all the Church era martyrs for justice.  In all probability, this seal has also already been opened.

The opening of the 6th Seal is imminent---Christ may open it at any time.  When He does, He will return for the Church and to make a sign appearance.  At this time, there will be a great earthquake, and the resurrection of the bodies of the saints who have gone on before will occur, followed immediately by the rapture.  Concurrent with this, the sun will be darkened, the moon will appear blood red, and there will be an extensive meteor bombardment.  All of this will result in a worldwide cataclysm of mega-proportions.  At this same time, those in Israel's hemisphere will sight "THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven,"  but will be left behind, along with 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe, who will be converted, yet left to bear witness to the Lamb.  In our hemisphere, the unsaved (who survive) will be perplexed at the sudden disappearance of so many, some who were family and friends.  They will be left to face the aftermath of what has happened and what is still to come.

Shortly, there will be a sudden calm of sorts the world over.  Aside from the ripple effects of the cataclysm that just occurred, it may seem as if it is time to begin trying to assess all the damage.  But, within about a half an hour, there will be a second wave of destruction, this time more concentrated on the United States' side of the earth.  A great mountain burning with fire (a mountain range, like the Rockies?) will be lunged into the ocean (the Pacific?), possibly the result of a massive pressure build up within the earth.  Just after this, the largest asteroid ever to impact the earth (referred to as "Wormwood") will do so, again, on the United States' side of the earth.  The damage done will be beyond recovering from---it will be a fatal blow to the lands of our Western Hemisphere---a third part of the earth.  Any remnant of survivors won't make it for long, a matter of days or weeks at the most.

Meanwhile, on Israel's side of the earth, it may be realized that something catastrophic has happened in the Western Hemisphere, just not what.  Everything will be pandemonium.  Hopelessness will abound.

West and southern Africa, the west coasts of Europe, and the east coasts of Asia, way inland, will quickly become flooded ruins as a result of the massive tidal waves that will occur.  Australia will be entirely wiped out.  However, Israel will be able to recover, as will all the lands of the old Roman Empire that are far enough inland to sustain.  But it will take some time.  In a few months, there will be a new normal in the lands that relate to those of the Bible days, a normal that will really be abnormal compared to our modern era.  Things will be closer to what they were like in the days of old, only worse.

As a result of all the devastation and flooding on the eastern and southern coasts of Asia, the survivors, millions of them, will begin migrating westward.  At this time, certain developments in the area of the Euphrates River will take place and the ultimate result will be that one-third of the world's remaining population will be killed.

Talk about a quantum leap backwards!  But, there will be a leader on the rise, a real standout, like a godsend.  He will gain the world's confidence by leaps and bounds.  The Israelites will even begin to say that he is their long prophesied Messiah---all but two witnesses and the 144,000.  They will be saying something else.  He will even spearhead the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.  And, and...

Edited February 4, 2023 by not an echo
I had reserved this slot for the present post

[not an echo]

In my opening post, I began a focus upon what I have referred to in this thread as "our focal passage" (Matt. 24:29-31), and of it I made these statements:  "It will be like the hub of a wheel assembly, and all the scriptures that fasten to it will be like the spokes.  My goal, of course, will be to interpret correctly, so that the wheel won't wobble."  Expanding on this little comparison, I hope the workmanship I have put forth on this assembly so far will be accepted as good.  But, there is a very important element in the assembly that I have not yet touched upon, and that is Jesus' opening words in our focal passage.  He opens by saying, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matt. 24:29).  Like a wheel bearing , these words bear a lot of weight, and because of this, I will soon start another thread to focus specifically on this part of the assembly.  When I start that thread, I will come back and give a link to it here.  *Here's that thread title and link:  The Tribulation of Matthew 24:29 and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/279060-the-tribulation-of-matthew-2429-and-daniels-70th-week/).  For now, for here, I just want to express my mindfulness of this element in the assembly (the mention of "tribulation" in Matt. 24:29) and to point out some things related to it that I have said elsewhere in the forum.

First of all, most, if not all, take the "tribulation" that Jesus mentioned in our focal passage to be that of Daniel's 70th Week, and many take everything He spoke of in His discourse up to this point as pertaining to Daniel's 70th Week.  Interesting to me is that we do not have to look to events yet future to find fulfillment of what He warned of in the opening of His discourse (e.g., Matt. 24:4-11), as it has been fulfilled and is being fulfilled even now in our day.  The continued fulfilling of what He said about deceivers and false Christs, about wars and rumors of wars, about famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, and about the persecution and martyrdom His followers would face is remarkable.  Things could have turned out a lot differently, but they have not.

It has been argued that what Jesus warned of in the opening of His discourse is not much different than what has characterized all of history, therefore His warnings must be of the time of the end.  Whatever the merit of this logic, to me, a greater argument is that Jesus knew His followers could easily anticipate that things in this world would change for the better, especially after His resurrection and what would happen on the Day of Pentecost---but it was not to be so.  In hindsight, it is easy to see Jesus conveying that, to whatever extent the forces of evil had been active up to that time, they were going to continue to be so, and especially in some Christianity-specific ways.  Think about it---Things could have been such that none would even presume to regard themselves to be some kind of Messiah, or Christ, but many have since that time, and several have in our own generation, like Charles Manson, Jim Jones, Sun Myung Moon, Father Divine, David Koresh, and others.  Concerning wars, Christianity could have had such a far reaching impact that these would, in our generation, be considered something of the long distant past, but it's not quite that way, is it?  Also, modern man could have made such advances that things such as world hunger and pestilences are no longer a concern.  Or, there could have been a relaxing along all of the earth's fault lines to the point that earthquakes never happen any more.  Things could have turned out a lot differently, but they have not.  Christians could have become so very respected that none would even think in terms of persecuting, much less martyring them.  On the flip side, they could have faded from history like a little cult that never really got established.  Again, things could have turned out a lot differently, but they have not.  Isn't that something?  Things could have turned out such that of Jesus Christ, history would bear out that He didn't know what He was talking about.  The fact of the matter is, Jesus hit all His nails square on the head.  Shouldn't surprise us, He being the Divine Carpenter!  Atheists, agnostics, and non-Christians should really take note. 

Moreover, does it not seem appropriate, even obligatory, that in such a talk with His disciples, Jesus would warn them of things they and His Church would be facing?  He was speaking these things to the pillars of His Church the very week He was to be crucified.  Early in the era of the Church, our brothers and sisters in Christ might not have made all the connections, but now we have the perspective of retrospect.  As we say of hindsight, it is 20/20, and 20 centuries of hindsight has confirmed to my satisfaction that Jesus did indeed speak of things very relevant to the Church.  What He said for openers has fit every century of the Christian era, if not every decade, if not every year.  The more one becomes aware of what all is happening in this world, the more it seems that what He said fits every day!

It goes without saying that parallels between what Jesus said in the opening of His discourse and the first four seals of the Seven Sealed Book have been recognized by many.  For more concerning my position that the four horsemen are presently riding---and have been since late in the first century---here are links to some threads I have started concerning these:

The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250674-the-first-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-white-horse/)

The Second Seal and the Horseman on the Red Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250725-the-second-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-red-horse/)

The Third Seal and the Horseman on the Black Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250748-the-third-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-black-horse/)

The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/)

As I said earlier concerning Jesus' use of the word "tribulation" in Matthew 24:29, most, if not all, take this to be of Daniel's 70th Week.  For me, this is very understandable---at least on the surface.  Below the surface, however, things shape up differently.  Because of what we find when looking deeper, I submit that the tribulation Jesus spoke of in our focal passage has nothing to do with Daniel's 70th Week at all, but everything to do with the tribulation experienced by God's children during the New Testament era of the Church, of which we are presently a part.  In all honesty, if we only had what Jesus spoke in His Olivet Discourse---and Matthew's account of that---I may have never come to the conclusion that I have.  But, there is more, and the reason there is more is that we need more.  This should not surprise any of us.  As normally the case, we must look at what God's Word reveals elsewhere, and a very important elsewhere is in The Revelation.

Consider again the seals of Revelation chapter six.  The first four seals reveal the satanic activity behind the tribulations Jesus warned of in the opening section of His discourse---tribulations that fit the whole of the Christian era.  Then, the 5th Seal reveals the cry of martyrs for justice, easily the martyrs of the Christian era.  Next, the 6th Seal reveals the phenomena concerning the sun, the moon, and the stars, which parallels what Jesus spoke of in our focal passage.  If the Church is raptured after the opening of the 6th Seal, this would be immediately after the tribulation related to the prior seals and at the time of the sun, moon, and stars phenomena---a sequence that harmonizes with Jesus' words in our focal passage, exactly.  This shows the sequence of what happens relating to both the seals and our focal passage to be this:  Church era tribulation, THEN, celestial phenomena at the time of the rapture.  Finally, this would have the rapture happening before the opening of the 7th Seal and well before Daniel's 70th Week, which, according to the evidence of Revelation 11:1-3, will not begin until some months after the Seven Sealed Book unfolds.  All of this also reinforces that the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" is just that---a sign appearance that Jesus is going to make at the opening of the 6th Seal, seven plus years before His coming for the Battle of Armageddon and His Millennial Reign.

Edited September 10, 2022 by not an echo
I had reserved this slot for the present post

[not an echo]

Here is one of my charts, which shows the timing of Christ's Sign Appearance relative to other events.  While this chart is pretty self-explanatory, there are a couple of things that I would like to point out and comment on.  Note that this chart would also fit the common pre-trib understanding, other than what I have labeled as CHRIST'S SIGN APPEARANCE and STAGE RESET.

Concerning the differences in what is commonly believed and what I point out as Christ's Sign Appearance, I spoke some to this earlier, in my FURTHER EVIDENCE ITEM #3 (see in my third post).  To clarify further, in my previous years of contemplating the common view, I noticed something that needed to be understood just a little differently.  What I am referring to is the common belief that Jesus will return invisibly at the rapture.  It needs to be understood that at the time of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven",  Jesus is going to be NOT visible (to some) instead of INvisible.  By this I mean, not visible to anyone outside of Israel's hemisphere.  What I am getting at is easily illustrated by something all of us observe regularly.  Let me explain.

Because the earth is a sphere, the sun is not visible to everyone on the earth simultaneously.  For example, when it is noon in Israel, the sun is not visible to anyone in the United States, however, it is very visible throughout the hemisphere of which Israel is a part---and vice-versa.  So, while the sun is often not visible, it is never invisible.  Of course, THE SON can be invisible if He wants to be!  Or, visible to some while at the same time invisible to others or whatever He wants!  But, a lot of what He wants or intends to do, is revealed in Scripture.  We just have to try to interpret it correctly.

The belief that Christ will return invisibly at the rapture has been based upon His return as a thief.  However, Christ's returning as a thief does not have to mean that His return will be invisible.  No thieves have ever worked invisibly, but most do work in a manner where they won't be seen or where their being seen will be limited.  And, if they are seen or glimpsed, it is often not realized what they have done until it is too late.  This is because they do what they do suddenly and unexpectedly, and then they are gone.  According to what we find in Scripture, such will be the case when Christ makes His Sign Appearance (Matt. 24:42-44;  Lk. 21:34-36;  and I Thess. 5:1-4).

In years past, when I would try to imagine Christ returning as a thief to take the Church out of this world, my only concept was in tune with the common pre-trib view and without any consideration of the sphere shape of the earth.  I too envisioned Christians disappearing the world over and none of those left behind getting a glimpse of anything, much less a glimpse of Christ.  I too could see Christian's clothes settling in a ruffle as their bodies disappeared from within them or something falling that a Christian might have been holding at the time or vehicles that Christians were driving, suddenly being driverless, and what that would mean.  In other words, I never saw a problem scripturally with how things are commonly imagined or depicted.  Believe it or not, this is still the way I see things happening, at least on our side of the earth.  I mean, we have Scripture that things in this world are going to be shaken up.  We have Scripture that this is going to happen without warning.  And, we have Scripture that when it happens, it's going to happen very, very quickly.  Hence, what is commonly imagined is simply a matter of doing the math.  But, do we really have Scripture that Christ is going to return invisibly at this time?  Let me suggest another equation.

By my math, when it is time, the Lamb will open the 6th Seal, whereupon He will suddenly appear in the clouds over the land of Israel.  This will be the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), and barring a miracle to some other effect, it will not be possible for those left behind in our hemisphere to see this.  Now note, the situation will be vastly different at the time of Christ's Second Advent, when "EVERY EYE shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7), and I speak to this very important and interesting difference in my thread titled, The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/).

For now---back to our equation and Christ's Sign Appearance---when contemplating what is revealed in Scripture, it is not too difficult to imagine some things.  Endeavoring to imagine in real time, things could easily take place something like this:  Even if it is high noon, everything will suddenly brighten up intensely, like in a blink.  Concurrent with this, there will be a great sound of a trumpet, whereupon the resurrection will occur, followed immediately by the gathering of the Church.  As things presently stand, even though multitudes of Christians, arguably most, will not be in Israel's hemisphere, the angels will gather them together so quickly that they too will see (and meet) Christ in the clouds within a twinkling of an eye.  At this same instant, 144,000 Jews (in Israel's hemisphere) will get at least a glimpse of Christ, a sight that apparently connects with their being converted (I think of Paul on the road to Damascus).  At this same moment, they will be sealed but left, evidently for the purpose of bearing testimony to the Lamb and warning everyone concerning the rise of the Antichrist, especially just preceding and during the first half of Daniel's 70th Week.

For all the rest left on Israel's side of the earth, many possibilities exist.  Many will be in or near the land of Israel, but others will be at the far reaches of that hemisphere.  Those who are outside and not facing in His direction at the instant of His appearance may not get the same glimpse of Him as those who are.  It's not hard to imagine everyone that sees His brightness having to shield and shut their eyes, and opening their eyes, He may already be gone.  Some will be inside at the time and may only see the flash of brightness in conjunction with everything else that will happen.  Outside of the 144,000, there's no telling how many will get a glimpse of Him but won't survive all that will happen long enough to tell about it.  Of those missing, some will be gone who were known to be Christians, along with some who were not known to be.  On the other hand, of those left, there will be those who were thought to be Christians, but were not---those who were merely religious but lost.

Meanwhile, on our side of the earth, in our hemisphere, those who are left will be left shaking their heads---no doubt as commonly depicted---left to experience all the aftermath of what happens after the opening of the 6th Seal.

As can be seen, this understanding is much like that of others who are pre-trib (or pre-Daniel's 70th Week) in their rapture view, as far as what it will be like for those left over here.  For those in Israel's hemisphere, however, things will be somewhat different, for we can only imagine what the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) will be like, even if it's but a glimpse.  But, Jesus and John give us a little insight---Jesus, in Luke's account of His Olivet Discourse (Lk. 21:25-27), and John, in his account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-17).

Concerning what I point out on my chart as the STAGE RESET, if the rapture were to occur today, according to Scripture, Daniel's 70th Week will not begin tomorrow, but there is solid evidence that the world's stage will begin to be reset for it at that time.  The first part of the reset will involve the gathering of the Church.  In other words, as the Church was not a part of the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy, it will not be a part of the fulfilling of the 70th Week.  Interestingly, what is in our Western Hemisphere was also not a part of the first 69 weeks, and there is prophetic evidence that it too will not be a part of the 70th Week.  Part of this evidence occurs just after the opening of the 7th Seal with the sounding of the first four (of seven) trumpets and the resultant destruction of one-third of the earth (Rev. 8:7-12).  As I show in my aforementioned thread concerning The First Four Trumpets, if the "third part" destruction spoken of is concentrated (rather than cumulative) and occurs primarily in our hemisphere, geographically, our side of the earth represents an exact third part.  This supports that what is in our hemisphere may be taken out of the picture at this time for the purpose of bringing the focus again to bear upon what is in Israel's hemisphere---as in the Bible days.  Interestingly, the sounding of the first four trumpets can scripturally occur later, the same day of the rapture.  Said another way, it looks like God is going to do something staggering on the day of the rapture---much of it for the purpose of resetting the world's stage for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  In harmony with this possibility, if the only remaining population of the earth at the end of Daniel's 70th Week is in Israel's hemisphere (because the Western Hemisphere is out of the picture), this takes the mystery away from how "every eye" shall simultaneously behold Christ (in Person) at His Second Advent.

If the first four trumpets of Revelation chapter 8 result in the destruction of what is in our hemisphere, and trumpets number five and six of chapter 9 result in the completion of the stage for Daniel's 70th Week, this fits that "little book open" in chapter 10 to be the little book of Daniel (cp. Rev. 10:2 with Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  This fit is made all the more apparent by what we discover in chapter 11, as everything John now begins to see relates to Daniel's 70th Week.  This becomes especially evident when the worship occurring in verse one of chapter 11 is understood as being directed toward the Antichrist.  This understanding is supported by Paul's prophecy concerning "that man of sin...the son of perdition;  who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;  so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:3b-4).  Further reinforcing this interpretation are the next two verses (Rev. 11:2-3), which are clearly in reference to two 3-1/2 year periods of time, which equal the seven years that make up Daniel's 70th Week.

Edited February 4, 2023 by not an echo
I had reserved this slot for the present post

[not an echo]

In His Olivet Discourse, when Jesus turns His attention to event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in Heaven" in Matthew 24:30, this event becomes the focus of His attention throughout the rest of Matthew 24.  This holds true for the corresponding sections of His discourse in Mark 13 and Luke 21 as well.  Said another way, in these chapters, after Jesus speaks to this event, everything else that He says pertains to this event.  This is a focus in the opening post of my thread, Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/).

Following is a helpful diagram showing Jesus' Olivet Discoure rightly divided, with attention drawn to the event of His Sign Appearance, or what I refer to as the INTERSECTING EVENT---and where it occurs:

As I have often expressed, Jesus' Olivet Discourse holds keys to understanding The Revelation, and vice-versa.  Nowhere is this more apparent than in regard to the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" and what we find with the opening of the 6th Seal of the Seven Sealed Book.  In my following overview of The Revelation, I give an understanding of what John was shown, an understanding thoroughly supported by both Scripture and history.  With such an overview, the relationship of Christ's Sign Appearance and what I have referred to as the stage reset for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week can be better understood within the framework of the other things that are, and will be taking place:

In the opening verses of The Revelation, John was shown things concerning the future that were "at hand" to begin to take place.  The Revelation is his record of what he saw and of his being told to send this, with specific messages, to the seven churches that were in Asia (Rev. 1-3).  Just before he was shown what would be taking place, he tells of his invitation to come up to Heaven, of his suddenly being there "in the spirit",  and of his seeing God on His throne (Rev. 4).  He then tells of a book he saw in God's right hand that was sealed with seven seals, and of the ceremony he witnessed, in which the Lamb (Jesus Christ) was given charge of it (Rev. 5).  The beginning of what John was told was "at hand" related to the Lamb's opening of the seals of this mysterious book.  The seals of this book pertain to the era of the NT Church and what is slated to take place before the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment will begin (Rev. 6-7).  Christ opened the first four seals late in the first century, granting to Satan the spiritual realm liberties that he (Satan) was given (he wouldn't have any otherwise) to continue the plying of his craft into and throughout the Christian era.  These liberties have ever since been exercised by his henchmen, the four horsemen, and they have been riding down through the corridors of Church history, even unto our day, doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing.  Their activity is responsible for the things Jesus warned of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse, things that have characterized every century of history since.  The 5th Seal reveals the cry of Church era martyrs for justice.  Arguably, it has also already been opened, and my position would be that it has.  Whereas the 6th Seal is yet to be opened, Christ may open it at any time.  When He does, the signs concerning the sun and the moon, connected scripturally with the beginning of the last days' DOTL judgment, will be fulfilled.  Just preceding, but concurrent with this, Christ will return for the resurrection and the gathering of the Church and make a powerful and glorious "sign" appearance, high in the sky over Israel---all in preparation for the upcoming fulfilling of the last, or 70th week of Daniel's Seventy Weeks' prophecy.  Staying within the bounds afforded by Scripture, on the same day that the 6th Seal is opened, Christ can also open the 7th Seal (Rev. 8).  This obviously suggests that He will then open the cover of the Seven Sealed Book, which could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD---as the period of the Day of the Lord begins this same day.  Said another way, the day that the 6th and 7th seals are opened is going to be a very huge day!  With the sounding of the first four trumpets, evidences support that what is in our Western Hemisphere will be taken out of the picture in further preparation---like a stage reset---for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  In the time frame of the 5th and 6th trumpets (Rev. 9), the remainder of the world's stage will be readied for this last seven years to take place.  Very fittingly, when everything is readied, John sees "a little book open" that Scripture supports as being the little book of Daniel (Rev. 10).  We then see the first evidences that the Antichrist has confirmed his infamous seven year covenant with Israel, meaning the period of Daniel's 70th Week has begun indeed.  The sounding of the 7th Trumpet will mark the mid-point of Daniel's 70th Week and herald the time in which Christ's complete reign over this world will occur (Rev. 11).  Daniel's 70th Week will continue (Rev. 12-18) until Christ's return as the King of kings and Lord of lords, at which time "every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him:  and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him" (Rev. 19).  The period heralded by the 7th Trumpet will continue through Christ's Millennial Reign, the passing away of this world, and the Last Judgment, which will also complete the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment---resulting in complete closure for this world (Rev. 20).  At this time, time as we know it will give way to eternity and what God has for all of His saved in the Happily Ever After (Rev. 21-22).

Following is a link to a complete outline of The Revelation I have developed.  I hope it will be found to be helpful concerning all the foregoing as well (https://www.sevensealedbook.com/copy-of-appendix-iv).

Edited February 4, 2023 by not an echo
I had reserved this slot for the present post

[not an echo]

I would like to point out that, in The Revelation, what I have put forth concerning the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" and the 6th Seal rapture of the Church is just an eleven verse section removed from the common pre-trib view.  How's that?  The common view has the Church raptured by Revelation 4:1, before the opening of the seals in chapter six, all of which it has as belonging to Daniel's 70th Week.  But, whereas John is told in 4:1 that he is going to be shown things "which must be hereafter",  the rest of chapter four and all of chapter five concerns what he beholds happening in Heaven, before anything actually begins to happen on the earth.  It is not until the opening verses of chapter six, when the Lamb begins to open the seals, that anything actually begins to happen on the earth.  So, for the common view, whether the rapture is seen as occurring by Revelation 4:1, or before Revelation 6:1, it's about as broad as it is long.  On the other hand, I have shown the consistent support of Scripture that the Church is raptured after the opening of the 6th Seal, the account of which begins in Revelation 6:12.  So, the biggest difference between the common view and what I have shown revolves around the eleven verse section of Revelation 6:1-11 and whether these verses pertain to Daniel's 70th Week or the whole of the era of the NT Church.  Hopefully, some of my focus upon these verses has made the truth that they pertain to the era of the Church more evident.  Moreover, because the last, or 7th Seal can scripturally be opened the same day that the 6th Seal is opened, this means that even the 7th Seal pertains to the era of the Church, as the era of the Church ends the same day it is opened.  And, not to be forgotten, the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment commences this same day as well---all in harmony with all of Scripture.  Said another way, the day the 6th Seal is opened is going to be a very big day, and the Lamb could open it today---again, all in harmony with all of Scripture.

Edited February 4, 2023 by not an echo
I had reserved this slot for the present post

[not an echo]

I guess you could call this a little heart to heart.  Whereas I have shared concerning this before, what I shared is now buried somewhere in one of my other threads.  Over the years of my studying God's Word and feeling compelled to point out some things in Scripture that seem to be largely overlooked, I have often wondered what God's real purpose has been for having led me as I feel that He has.  Of course, we all know that sound doctrine is of the highest interest to God.  And, when I would think of this, I would experience some degree of satisfaction that this is what it has all been about.  But, I consistently had lingering thoughts that there was something more, something of even greater interest to God.  As of the last couple of years, I have felt that I now know.  I am now deeply convicted that it connects with the Lord's continued desire to convince those who have put off being saved to be saved before it is too late---to not be counting on a supposed option that may not in reality exist for them.  Let me explain...

Some who believe that the common pre-trib view is wrong (though the bottom line is very scriptural) suggest that it is also dangerous, in that the Church, if it thinks that it won't be going through any of Daniel's 70th Week, will be unprepared, if it does.  Whatever the case, this would represent a temporal concern of a few years at most.  However, in light of Revelation 8:7-12 (the first four trumpets/Scripture largely overlooked), a much more serious concern---an eternal one---would relate to the unsaved.  For example, there seems to be a mentality with some that if a lot of people end up missing one day, it may be that the rapture has indeed occurred, and that those who find themselves left will still have a chance to be saved, as long as they don't succumb to taking the mark of the beast.  But, the possibility of the United States (and the rest of the Western Hemisphere) being what is destroyed during the sounding of the first four trumpets suggests that this chance will be minimal, if even existent, for those left over here.  When I think of our nation and how God has shed His grace on it, it would not surprise me if those left over here---those who have continued to reject God and His grace---will be hopelessly doomed.  I think of Sodom and Gomorrah and how our nation is often compared to those wicked cities.  On the day God judged those cities, the angels delivered Lot and his daughters, whereupon the cities were totally destroyed.  Interestingly (and troubling), this may be what is in store for our nation (and what is in our hemisphere) after the rapture.  Consider what Abraham beheld after God judged Sodom and Gomorrah.  From Genesis chapter 19:

 27  And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD:

 28  And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.

Related to the foregoing, consider my thread titled, The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/).  For that one who is unsaved (or unsure), if you have thought that there will still be a chance to be saved if you find yourself left one day, there is no assurance of this, especially if you are on the United States' side of the earth.  As Paul told the Corinthians, "behold, now is the accepted time;  behold, now is the day of salvation" ( II Cor. 6:2b).

Of course, another of the scriptures that has been largely overlooked is the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" and this happening with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-16).  If what I have drawn attention to in this thread is understood as I have put it forth or not, what I have drawn attention to does not need to be disregarded.  It is Scripture.  And, it can be understood in a way that fits with every other prophetic puzzle piece that is found elsewhere in Scripture.  When understood as I have put forth, the prophetic puzzle pieces sure come together in an interesting way.  I hope you will consider afresh the preceding posts of this thread, and the opening posts of all my other related threads (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/?do=findComment&comment=3217908).

Edited February 4, 2023 by not an echo
I had reserved this slot for the present post